Talk:Sharif Mobley

This article needs to be rewritten

The main portion/body of the this article dates from 2010. Since that time much more is know about the incident involving Mr. Mobley in Yemen and some of the aftermath that has lead to his arrest and subsequent disappearance. The main author of this article is listed as "retired from wiki-editing" so there is no one updating or maintaining this page.

Some of the language used within the current article is inflammatory and used in the manner of "character assassination".

ex: is a suspected al-Qaeda and al-Shabab member who was arrested in Yemen in March 2010 by counter-terrorism officers following a shooting in which he was allegedly the perpetrator.

All "terrorism" charges against Mr. Mobley were dropped by the Yemeni Government. During his initial rendition/kidnapping it was Mr. Mobley who was shot by the Yemeni security services.

Therefore any inflammatory use of the word "terrorist" or links to "terrorist organizations" should be removed and a correction to this segment is needed.

ex: Mr. Mobley's employment at Nuclear Power Plants

In the original tone of the article the addition of his employment at a Nuclear Power Plant, leaves the impression that he might somehow be involved in a plan to damage this facility. Since all charges of "terrorism" have been dropped and there have been no further linkages to his employment at the plant, this sections should be amended or deleted.

ex: details of his shootout in the hospital

There are serious questions raised about this incident during a second visit to the hospital for complications arising from the initial gun shot injury during his arrest in Yemen. All charges of terrorism have been dropped and replaced with a charge of murdering a guard at the hospital during this second visit. Questions have been leveled about the veracity of these allegations and the circumstances of the entire hospital "escape attempt".

ex: FBI and Department of Defense" interrogation notes

The FBI and DoD interrogated Mr. Mobley during the initial hospital stay after being shot by the Yemeni Security Services. The FBI notes on this interview are available and show a detailed exchange between Mr. Mobley and the 2 men. There are questions as to why a FBI agent and a member of the DoD were interrogating Mr. Mobley as this is not their normal jurisdiction (overseas operations are generally done by the CIA).

ex: Mr Mobley's disappearance and location is unknown

The Yemeni prison official and those responsible for the care of Mr. Mobley have been unable to bring him to his court hearings. There are official statements from the Yemeni officials that they do not know where Mr. Mobley is or what his status is. The US Embassy made a statement in 07/2014 that they had spoken to Mr. Mobley and that he was in good health but that they would not reveal his location, nor assist his attorneys in contacting him. The Yemeni judge in charge of his trail ordered the Yemeni Attorney General to bring Mr. Mobley to his court date @08/20/2014. The Attorney General of Yemeni said he did not know where Mr. Mobley is and could not produce him for the court. This is the fourth (4th) time Mr. Mobley has been absent from court proceedings.

Mr. Mobley was last known to be alive 02/27/2014. US Embassy official William Lesh claimed that US Embassy Officials spoke with Mr. Mobley 07/25/2014.

There are other news articles from The Guardian and Reprieve.org and other media outlets that contain much more recent information on Mr. Mobley.

I request a wiki-editor who knows the proper method of documenting these changes consider updating or tagging this article as "problematic" "propaganda" or other designation to show that there are serious questions about the information as presented.

KBR (talk) 16:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Here is a citation for some of the above information.

Yemeni officials fail to produce 'disappeared' American for fourth time

Sharif Mobley, from New Jersey, is facing murder charges in Yemen but his lawyers have not seen him for six months

KBR (talk) 05:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

---

Here are some more recent articles about Mr. Mobley. I don't know how to properly update this page or the information to present it in the proper format. Anyone who can help, it would be appreciated. I have this same information on the page for "missing persons". Talk:List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously#Sharif_Mobley

Here are some articles that reference Mr. Mobley's situation.

Summary of the articles:

His next court date is 09/10/2014. Last seen by his lawyers on 27 February 2014. William Lesh is the US Official who claims to have spoken to Mr. Mobley but according to the articles Mr Lesh refused to make any other comments other than "[US] the Embassy will not disclose where Mobley is, nor would it facilitate lawyers’ access to him [Mr. Mobley]." The article from 07/25/2014 details the 4 court appearances Mr. Mobley has missed and the confusion concerning his whereabouts. He is not located at any of the places/prisons he was supposed to be held at. The Yemeni Judge Abdelwali al-Shaabani (sp) tried to force the prison officials to bring Mr. Mobley to his trial. This included ordering the Yemeni attorney general Ali Alwash to bring Mobley to court for the next session in Mobley's trial, scheduled for August 20 [2014]. Mr. Mobley was not presented on that date.

Yemeni officials fail to produce 'disappeared' American for fourth time Sharif Mobley, from New Jersey, is facing murder charges in Yemen but his lawyers have not seen him for six months Spencer Ackerman in New York theguardian.com, Thursday 21 August 2014 15.39 EDT

US diplomats admit contact in Yemen with missing citizen Sharif Mobley

Embassy ends silence but refuses to reveal location Attorney: 'US officials are mixed up in this detention' Spencer Ackerman in New York theguardian.com, Friday 25 July 2014 14.41 EDT

Yemeni judge orders that 'disappeared' US citizen be produced in court

Yemen attorney general ordered to bring Sharif Mobley, who lawyers say has been disappeared, to court for murder trial Spencer Ackerman in New York theguardian.com, Wednesday 25 June 2014 15.01 EDT

I hope this helps to get Mr. Mobley's situation listed. I'm not very good at this and I don't know how to change much on the wiki. Anyone that can help fix Mr. Mobley's page so he can be included and the information updated would be of great help.

KBR (talk) 07:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Tie-in to SSCI Torture Report

There are several tie-ins to the Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture 12/09/2014. Along with torture procedures and targeted individuals the report contains some descriptions of threats used against detainees. Some of these threats are similar to those reported by Sharif Mobley to his lawyers.

Adding the reported threats and sources of the information to the page. KBR (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Need to remove old inaccurate information

Adding citations for some items. I'm not sure exactly how to handle these officially or how to handle citations for deleted content or the proper order to display them. Help adjusting them would be appreciated. KBR (talk) 13:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

---

Much of the reporting from 2010 contains inaccurate or false information. This information was reported by main stream media news sources like CNN and other. At the time, they contained reports or statements that later turned out to be incorrect. Sometimes it was years later that the information was found to be incorrect.

These old sources need to be purged and information needs to be added about the inaccurate information being removed. It needs to be documented that (ex: CNN reports X but later X was incorrect).

If anyone has ideas on the best way to handle this it would be appreciated. KBR (talk) 21:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Added Disinformation Table

As there is so much historically incorrect information about Sharif Mobley, it did not seem proper to just delete it without referencing what was said and if possible by who and which media reported it. The overall amount of incorrect information passed to the main stream media shows how intensely the US Government wishes to taint public opinion about this case. Even the arrest dates are given to the press incorrectly.

I don't think I can document every case of this disinformation but the table will help highlight some of the bigger "misstatements of fact".

KBR (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

--

Someone removed the disinformation table and I don't know how to restore it. This table is important because it shows how information about Mr. Mobley has been re-stated over time. It's also important to retain the context of his situation.

example:

He was initially accused of being a terrorist. 
He was never charged and was cleared of any connection to terrorism or terrorist organizations. 

As I've never done a roll-back I would not want to undo other edits made to the article. Help on restoring that table would be appreciated, otherwise I will give it a go on a future update.

KBR (talk) 18:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Restored the table manually. Auto rollback was not possible. KBR (talk) 15:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Yemen Uprising 2015

There is an active opposition uprising to the current Yemen Government. The current Yemen Government is an ally of and is supported by the US Government. The opposition groups are not aligned with the US. There are several groups fighting (Houthi/Shiite and others) with news reports varying on which group has control of each area but collectively they now control Sana'a the capital. They have taken prisoners and the presidential palace.

The fate of normal prisoners in the Yemen Central Prison as well as those held by the Yemen Security Services at the black site also located in the capital, has been un-reported.

Given the extent of the effort by the US Government and US State Department, to detain Mr. Mobley inside Yemen, it would be hard to imagine that they would allow him to be "freed" by an active opposition group.

This active coup-in-progress may affect Mr. Mobley's location or life status.

KBR (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

---

The Yemen civil war continues with fighting around the capital Sana'a. Previous statements by consular officials regarding the closure of the Embassy said there was "no evacuation". Embassy officials have been questioned by the press and Sharif Mobley's legal team about his location and if any plans exist to remove him from his "undisclosed" location. US officials state only that Sharif Mobley remains in the black site prison. News outlets report that US has now "evacuated" military advisers from Sana'a. While there situation in Yemen is deteriorating there is no new information on his status.

KBR (talk) 15:32, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Deletions

Employment at nuclear power plants

I propose to delete the entire section labeled: Employment at nuclear power plants. While Sharif Mobley did work at these plants the information is not relevant to his case or to his arrest in Yemen.

Would it be useful to replace this section with a new section topic about "initial reporting" which would include this sort of information? Early reporting on his case was driven by US Government policies for the "War on Terror" and as such reported by the media in the same manner. KBR (talk) 13:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since there doesn't seem to be any issues I will remove this section. KBR (talk) 15:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/17/al.awlaki.message/?hpt=T2. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 23:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Inaccurate information about visitation by U.S. Diplomat

Under the section: Continued Detention, it states that U.S. diplomat Kim Richter visited Mr. Mobley. This information is inaccurate (on many levels) and should be deleted.

"US diplomat, Kim Richter made a Diplomatic Visit to Mobley, at an undisclosed location, sometime mid/late September 2014. Richter contacted Nzinga Islam on September 26, 2014 and confirmed that Mobley is indeed, in the custody of the Yemen National Security Bureau (NSB).[25]"

The article that was referenced to make the claim (reference #25) states only that Ms. Richter was in contact with Ms. Islam, not that she had visited Mr. Mobley (see the source material below). The article does not support the conclusion that Ms. Richter confirmed detention. "Diplomatic visit" is inaccurate, as such activities are done by heads of states or envoys. Ms. Richter is neither. When a citizen of one nationality is held by a foreign nationality, access granted to consular officers is called a consular visit. Ms. Richter is a American Citizen Services Specialist at U.S. Department of State; she works in Washington D.C. and would be unable to perform a prison visit in Yemen, as she would not be accredited to work in Yemen. Accreditation is given to foreign diplomats by the host government and diplomats not resident in country are not accredited to perform diplomatic functions inside a country. Only a consular officer on diplomatic assignment to Yemen would be able to perform a consular visit.

The source material:

"Islam told the Guardian that a different US diplomat, Kim Richter, indicated to her that Mobley is being held by Yemen’s National Security Bureau, a security apparatus heavily underwritten by Washington.

Richter spoke with Islam on 26 September to brief her on a US diplomatic visit to see her husband, now believed to be detained on a Sana’a military base. Islam recalled that Richter would not tell her where Mobley is “because it may leak”.

But when Islam asked about transferring Mobley back to the central Sana’a prison, she quoted Richter says saying the warden intends to “check with the National Security Bureau”.

--169.253.194.1 (talk) 18:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure what it is you are complaining about.

• If you are attempting to define a "diplomatic visit" as something other than what was reported please indicate your definition and your suggestion as to alteration. There is no question about the accuracy of the exchanges as reported.

• If you are trying to imply that information passed between the US Embassy and US State Department officials with Ms. Mobley did not happen or that someone was impersonating a US State Department official and gave her false information, that is another matter.

• If you are implying that some person other than a US Embassy and US State Department official was the person(s) "in direct contact" with Mr Mobley and then passed that information to Kim Richter who then reported that information without "understanding the source of the information or why it was being given to Ms Mobley", then a name would be helpful along with their position of authority at the Embassy/US State Department.

KBR (talk) 17:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I have re-read the relevant news report and you have omitted a few crucial points.

The news report is dated: 10/10/2014 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/sharif-mobley-yemen-urine-family-us-disappeared

Carlton Benson consular officer to Islam via email:

quoted as: “Sharif mentioned during my last prison visit that ..."

So Carlton Benson did make a consular visit.

Later in the article it says:

a different US diplomat, Kim Richter, indicated to her that Mobley is being held by Yemen’s National Security Bureau, a security apparatus heavily underwritten by Washington.

Richter spoke with Islam on 26 September to brief her on a US diplomatic visit to see her husband, now believed to be detained on a Sana’a military base. Islam recalled that Richter would not tell her where Mobley is “because it may leak”.

But when Islam asked about transferring Mobley back to the central Sana’a prison, she quoted Richter says saying the warden intends to “check with the National Security Bureau”.

So Kim Richter actually spoke with Islam on 26 September 2014. Kim Richter confirmed he was being held by Yemen's National Security Bureau. She spoke to her about a "US diplomatic visit". The use of the phrase "US Diplomatic visit" may be ignorance by the journalist or Islam or it may mean that the US Ambassador level did visit Mobley or it may mean that US diplomats made a visit hence the use of diplomatic visit. There is no way of knowing.

I would suggest that references to Carlton Benson use "consular visit".

I would suggest that references to Kim Richter be changed to:

On 26 September 2014, Kim Richter (American Citizen Services Specialist at U.S. Department of State, Washington D.C.) confirmed Sharif Mobley was being held by Yemen's National Security Bureau but would not confirm his location “because it may leak”.

This leads to the next question: How did Kim Richter come into the information if she was not in contact with the US Embassy in Yemen? If Kim Richter is unauthorized to travel to Yemen or talk by phone, email, fax etc to anyone in the Embassy in Yemen to obtain the information she gave to Islam, who gave it to her? Did she get it from Carlton Benson who is acknowledged to have seen Sharif Mobley in detention at the undisclosed location?

I do not accept your assertion that the statement does not confirm "detention". It does state he is held by Yemen's National Security Bureau and that he is held "somewhere".

Unless there are other issues coming forward on this point I will replace the text in dispute and remove the tag on a future update to the page.

KBR (talk) 13:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Warning Tag Resolved

2 new warning tags where added to the front of the page and I'm not sure where these came from or why.

One of them concerns a discussion in the Talk Section: Inaccurate information about visitation by U.S. Diplomat. Exchanges on proper wording of the US State Department and US Embassy emails and phone calls can be found there.

This tag removed and issue resolved. KBR (talk) 15:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

COI Warning Tag

The other is the "COI" tag that renders: A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject

I see no indication of any issue being raised other than perhaps some sort of innuendo? If there's a problem or question then it should be posted in the Talk Page.

• If the innuendo is to imply that only one person is updating this page well that might be correct except the history of the page shows that it was created and maintained for a long time by single contributor who has since retired from maintaining the page.

• Whoever posted the complaint about the reporting of the State Department/US Embassy exchange with the Mobley family, is now posting on the page too and seems to be highly informed as to the dealings of the US State Department/US Embassy and consular protocols.

• It might be that the warning is to imply that this person, with such detailed knowledge of US Embassy and State Department protocols, is someone "too close" to the US State Department/US Embassy.

• All information on the page comes from publications and newspapers. If the issue is that some news media outlets are following up periodically on the status of Mr. Mobley's case, I don't think that indicates "a close connection to the subject" other than good journalistic follow up.

Unless there is specific issues to be raised, I will plan to remove the "too close" warning tag on a future update to the page. KBR (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

COI tag removed. No commentary or discussion was posted on the talk page regarding validity of the tag.

KBR (talk) 15:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

COI tag was re-added to the front page. I am confused about why this tag is being reapplied. There is no discussion here about who/what/where or how things might qualify as COI. From my reading on the wiki rules there is nothing on this page that would indicate anyone editing this page has a COI of any type financial or otherwise. afaik no one posting here is a "paid representative". So whoever is reposting the COI please explain your reasoning. There's no need to get into a cross posting war. KBR (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The COI tag was restored as there was no consensus for its removal. Quis separabit? 16:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Then can you please explain who you think has a COI and/or why you think this tag should be applied to the article? KBR (talk) 03:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The COI tag is still at the top of the page as placed there by Quis separabit? aka Robert. Robert has given no indication as to why he thinks this article qualifies for COI tag. I am requesting again that he explain or justify the continuing application of the COI tag and I again propose to remove the COI tag. KBR (talk) 08:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Update Warning Tag

Update warning tag incorrectly removed and needs to be restored The update warning tag was removed also. This tag is important to retain because much of the very early reporting about the case was inaccurate. Much of that information is still on the page and more recent information indicates that some of the earlier information maybe incorrect even though it was properly documented with footnotes and references and published by MSM. This tag should be restored.

Please explain why the Update Warning tag was removed or restore it. There's no need to get into a cross posting war. KBR (talk) 03:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

That one I had nothing to do with. Quis separabit? 16:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Quote from Anonymous Guard at Black Site Detention Facility

US diplomat, Kim Richter during a Diplomatic Visit to Mobley in mid/late September, questioned a guard who confirmed the mistreatment. “When he’s not being a good prisoner or causes trouble, this stuff happens” said an anonymous guard in the Yemen National Security Bureau (NSB). (the bold section is in question)

This are some issues around this particular quote that is causing some cross posting. There was no previous discussion in the talk page about what may or may not be the problem with it's inclusion prior to it's excision. That it's being removed consistently without discussion is problematic and not in keeping with maintaining the page's accuracy.

Reasoning for inclusion: Only consular officials have seen Mr. Mobley. There has been no access to him by his family or legal advisors and his location in the black site prison is barely acknowledged by US Officials. Any quotations stemming from people who have seen or spoken with Mr. Mobley are valuable. They show he is still alive and able to communicate. Reports of conversations/phone calls with his wife show that he has some access to phones when permitted. Statements about the conditions of his detention are valuable in that they show he is alive and grant validity to "allegations" of mistreatment.

The page should not ignore what "actual" evidence that Mr. Mobley still lives and the conditions under which his is held. When better quotations or evidence becomes available that could replace such statements. The quotation is from a US Diplomat Kim Richter who relayed this to the Mobley Family.

From the source news report

... [Kim] Richter told her that a Yemeni prison guard, queried by US diplomats about the mistreatment,
replied: “When he’s not being a good prisoner or causes trouble, this stuff happens.”

As in other issues regarding Kim Richter's conversation with the Mobley family, it was established that Richter is located in Washington DC and not in Yemen. Kim Richter is relaying a quote obtained from sources familiar with Mobley's detention in Yemen. How Ms. Richter came to know of the statement of the guard is unknown.

• Richter relayed what was told to her by consular officials with access to the guard
• Richter talked directly to the guard.
• Richter made it up

Any "propaganda" that might be associated with the statement would be from US Officials. Anonymous statements or paraphrased conversation are the only ones available in the case of Sharif Mobley because no one is allowed to talk to him directly. Sources of such statements prefer to remain unidentified. Here we have a known US Official Kim Richter relaying a quote from an "anonymous" source.

- History of re-edits: -

Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk | contribs) Latest revision as of 14:31, 24 March 2015 (no -- an unverifiable alleged claim by an unidentified guard is not encyclopaedic; it is propaganda)

KBR (talk | contribs) Revision as of 03:55, 24 March 2015 (edit) (undo) (Undid revision 653196348 by Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) Quote from an unidentified guard at the prison is a confirmation of the conditions of detention. It supports context.)

Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk | contribs) Revision as of 19:10, 23 March 2015 (rv anonymous alleged quote as WP:UNDUE, at least)

KBR (talk | contribs) Revision as of 15:47, 13 October 2014 (edit) (undo) Original Inclusion Date (→‎Continued Detention: added details on Urine Laced Bottle) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KBR (talk • contribs) 16:18, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

KBR (talk) 16:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

There is only one source for the claim re Kim Richter (see here) and that is The Guardian (see here). I don't say The Guardian is unreliable per se but how can it be that apparently not a single other publication, website, etc has picked it up? Your placement and bolding of this purported quote clearly give it undue weight. (note: autosig got munched)

Thank you for commenting:

• I have no control over what any newspaper or media outlet choses to report.
• There is no evidence that others have not picked up the report. Even if you Google on the subject you could not prove a negative.
• There is no evidence or retraction from the Guardian about this statement.
• The footnotes contain many media sources, so suggestions that "that apparently not a single other publication, website, etc has picked it up? " is incorrect.
• Why should one exclude the statement as reported by MSM unless Kim Richter directs a retraction to the paper.
• I appreciate corrections to formatting, wording, phrasing to be compliant with Wikipedia standards.
• I am not a professional wiki-editor and assistance with proper attribution and discussion of the proper inclusion/exclusions of topics is very much appreciated.
• Anyone associated with or known to Kim Richter in any capacity and removing the statement might qualify as basis for the COI tag on the page.

KBR (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

(* some of the autosigs got munched on edits) KBR (talk) 16:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I think we need consensus here but if all we are talking about at this juncture are the purported comments of the guard to Richter then basically what it comes down to is the substandard conditions afforded an accused terrorist in a jail in a third world (sorry, "developing") country torn by violence and terrorism. Quis separabit? 21:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Slight correction needed here: "an accused terrorist."

Sharif Mobley is not accused or charged with any crimes at all. He's not under warrant or legal arrest. All allegations of terrorism/terrorist activities mentioned in early media reports about his arrest were dropped in toto by the Yemen government. The Yemen government never filed any further complaints against him, not even an accusation of "murdering a guard during an escape attempt". Mobley was removed from the Yemen court system without charges being stated or filed. The only places you see the word "terrorist" is in MSM reporting.

During the 5 missed court dates, which are the ones I could compile from various media sources, no charges where filed by any enforcement or legal agency in Yemen. His legal counsel both in Yemen and UK were never informed as to what charges if any would be brought against him. As he was never rendered to the Yemen courts no one knows why he is being held.

I don't object to omitting the quotation. I only object to it being removed without discussion.

Future readers can see this talk page and decide for themselves if the

"purported comments of the guard to a US State Department official, Kim Richter, comes down to the substandard conditions afforded a US Citizen held without charge, warrant or trial in an unknown location in a country that is an ally of the USA and with the knowledge of the US Embassy there, and that this country currently torn by violence and terrorism" is worthy of note.

Thank you for participating in the discussion. KBR (talk) 03:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis and needed RS refs

This article has some synthesis that has been introduced into it, which must be removed. If nobody else addresses it, I shall. See wp:synth. Also, it has many sentences that lack RS refs. Consider them now challenged; please provide RS refs for them if you would like them to remain. --Epeefleche (talk) 01:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for helping on the page. As I am not a professional wiki editor I welcome any assistance in maintaining the page in proper wiki format.

From the reference given there is some issue with attribution or sentence construction. Your "challenge" appears to be global to the entire document rather than specific to an area. Prior to excision of information I request that you post your suggestions for comments. Not only to gain consensus on changes but it is also to avoid deleting details that are important but need to be rephrased.

Nearly all information prior to 2014 is incorrect. The Update/Out of Date Warning tag was removed (not by me) to alert readers that sections of this page are out of date/invalid/misleading. Removing this old information needs to be done carefully to retain the historical context of the subject as in: Sharif Mobley is going to blow up a nuclear plant which was implied by news reports at the time. If removed without proper structure no one will understand that this was a big issue in ~2010 and it is no longer an issue ~2014.

many sentences that lack RS refs. What is "RS"?

KBR (talk) 02:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Please read wp:burden -- I'm asking that all unreferenced sentences, and those not supported by RSs, be supported by RSs. Or else they are subject to deletion. Under wp:v, they can be deleted at any time, even without notice. Please read wp:rs as well. As to synthesis, please read wp:synth ... all the language that was taken from sources not discussing Mobley may well fall under wp:synth, and someone (you?) added a bit of that. There is no need to discuss the changes in greater specificity before changing them, but to aid you I've also templated the article with regard to the need for RSs. The material at odds with wp rules was added without posting here first, and there is certainly no need to post their excision here first. You can always find the deleted material in the article history. Nearly all the information prior to what you added was, actually, correct from what I can see. Your material seems to be the material rife with issues. Also, please stop overlinking. See wp:overlink. And don't write "currently" when you can't write that as to what will be the case tomorrow (when the article may be read) -- instead, say "as of ..." Best. Epeefleche (talk) 04:14, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• re: Overlinking: I didn't know that including links to other pages was against the format rules. Thanks for clearing up that I only need to link a few times. I'm not sure some of the linkages that were removed recently make a lot of sense though. How many people will know who the "Yemen NSB" without the full name: Yemen National Security Bureau and a further link? Maybe not that important within the context of the topic here, one can pretty well "guess" what sort of group they are. All law enforcement agencies have a hierarchy. It might be important to clearly state which part of the hierarchy they belong to, as some agencies are more powerful/trustworthy than others (ex: local police vs FBI). Also removing links to pages based on the proper names and titles of officials involved even if some of them are "red text non existent pages" seems to defeat the purpose of the wiki. Someday someone might write that needed page and then there won't be the need to backtrack to find other references.

• re: Backtracking: Backtracking to other pages without linkages on the wiki I only recently discovered is a big problem. Without links (like to this page's topic) finding all the references that may need to be reviewed is rather daunting. Someone posted I should some how find all the non-linked references to Sharif Mobley across the entire wiki-sphere to fix stuff (boogles).

• re: Material I may have posted that may not have RS (reliable source?): I have been very careful to provide footnotes/citations for every topic or change. I have used a variety of sources; sometimes there are only a one or two but often there are many to chose from. If you have an issue with some statement or sentence please take the time to ask for a different source. I cannot know which ones you are concerned about if you just haul off and delete it. If it's a question of structure there's many ways that can be adjusted to meet your criteria.

• re: Topic changes not being pre-posted on the talk page by me: Well that is an interesting assertion. I think I did try to get some commentary at the start. I didn't particular want to carry this bucket of water up the hill at all or alone. I didn't get much feed back (like none). So I've done the best I can here and I'm learning more with every posting. Early citations (pre 2014) are factually incorrect. They are correct within the historic sequence of that time. Much of the information that is now know contradicts assertions and accusations from that earlier period. I believe it's important to maintain that historical line. Please do discuss anything that bothers you. There are always ways to present this information in ways that will meet your criteria.

• re: Just deleting stuff without consensus: Of course anyone can edit and change anything they want on the wiki. You have every wiki-right to do so. Anyone can roll-back, re-edit the same material. It's just a big waste of time to do that but there are some folks in the world who enjoy that sort of tug-of-war-power-trip. I would much rather prefer to review and discuss issues here on the talk page (now that there are some folks willing to be associated with this page) without getting into a big cross-posting deal. If you really just "have to delete stuff right now!" by all means do so. The talk page is not a forum but consensus can be built around most issues even if they are "hot button ones".

• I'm not a wiki professional. I just an ordinary person who learned a lot about "this" topic. Feel free to engage that knowledge for the betterment of the page and the wiki.

Thank you for assisting and helping with the page. KBR (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

• As to your overlinking, please read and follow (as I've suggested) wp:overlink. You overlinked in part by linking multiple times to the same term -- please read and understand the rule in this regard. If you don't think the rule makes sense, discuss the rule on the talk page to the rule if you like. The rule is the consensus standard. Please abide by consensus. As to article history of deleted material, you can find that in article history. As to lack of RS references, please read wp:rs to understand what an RS is, and also - of course - consider all uncited sentences to be challenged. The part of the article you assert is untrue is all RS-cited; the goal of wikipedia is to reflect the RSs, not "truth" as you indicate. And certainly not the synthesis you engage in. See wp:synthesis. As to your last point, you don't get to simply insert material lacking RS support, or synthesis, without discussion, and then put the burden on others to discuss it here before deleting it. The issues have been flagged here, and the rules and guidelines that are applicable. Best. Epeefleche (talk) 20:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

* The part of the article you assert is untrue is all RS-cited; the goal of wikipedia is to reflect the RSs, not "truth" as you indicate.

I think I was particularly clear that some parts of the page are properly referenced even though they are factually untrue. Sharif Mobley was not born in Africa although that is a referenced and cited footnote and was commonly reported in the MSM at the time of his kidnapping. It's not "truth" as I wish it to be, it's a fact that he was born in the USA and is a US Citizen. If you wish to remove such corrections I would find that rather odd.

As to what you will consider to be "synthesis" I remain in the dark and will await to see what alterations you make.

Thank you for assisting in making the page better. KBR (talk) 11:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Charts seem to epitomize WP:SYNTH

Unless there is a source for these charts I can't see how they can stay in the article. Dlabtot (talk) 07:16, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The source of the charts are well documented within the footnotes. They are direct quotations and correctly attributed to the speakers and newspapers. It is not original research, it is a summary of what was reported. It is to detail what was reported and when, by who, what was the issue. It adds clarity to the topic. The table makes no interpretations. KBR (talk) 07:36, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding the policies in play here. The table clearly violates WP:SYNTH and WP:OR because it is using original research to determine whether information in the media was reported "correctly" or "unsubstantiated", and does not include reliable sources making these specific claims. To say the sources are in the footnotes is not nearly enough to have a chart labeling "Mainstream Media" and "New York Times", among others, as reporting things incorrectly. You need specific sources making specific claims, and the sources have to be reliable. For the most part, "Mainstream Media" is where you find reliable sources (like The New York Times which is an exceptionally reliable source), so even with sources it could potentially fail WP:FRINGE. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 02:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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