Talk:Shelley

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Requested move 25 June 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved Shelley → Shelley (name). Redirecting Shelley to Percy Bysshe Shelley without prejudice for subsequent option of moving the disambiguation page to the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

– No clear primary topic based on views [[1]][[2]]. The name article should probably be split to Shelley (surname) or just moved to Shelley (name). Percy Bysshe Shelley comes up first in Google although he is a PTM. The given name appears to derive from the places in Essex, Suffolk and Yorkshire and the surname does thus PT#2 could favour the places in England. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:08, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Based on the discussion below, I've revised my recommendation (previously was just 'Support' for nominator's proposal). If redirecting Shelley to Percy Bysshe Shelley fails to find consensus, my second choice would be making it a disambiguation page (as proposed by Crouch, Swale). Colin M (talk) 18:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination and Colin M. If there is to be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT, then it should flow to Percy Bysshe Shelley in the same manner that Keats redirects to John Keats, Byron redirects to Lord Byron, Wordsworth redirects to William Wordsworth or Tennyson redirects to Alfred, Lord Tennyson. Otherwise, there should be no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:07, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move Shelley to Shelley (name), as it's more commonly a surname than a given name. Primary redirect Shelley to Percy Bysshe Shelley. Keep Shelley (disambiguation) as is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Surprised to see two people suggest a primary redirect to Percy Bysshe Shelley. I was going to mention it, but figured it had a WP:SNOWBALL's chance. @Roman Spinner and Necrothesp: does the fact that Mary Shelley gets more views affect your thinking on this? I'd still tentatively support the primary redirect, because my sense is that Perchy Bysshe is referred to by the mononym 'Shelley' much more than Mary. But I haven't tried to empirically confirm that in sources. Colin M (talk) 14:32, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Shelley" alone almost always refers to Percy, not Mary. He's one of those poets, along with Byron, Keats, Coleridge, Wordsworth, etc, who is referred to more by his surname than his given names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Surnames of world-caliber people most commonly redirect to those people, unless a surname, such as Washington, gains other frequently used meanings. Last year Coleridge became a primary redirect (Talk:Coleridge (disambiguation)#Requested move 11 April 2018) and even the relatively common surname Wagner redirects to Richard Wagner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2016_September_6#Wagner), rather than to a list of people with that surname. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:57, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Its usually not helpful to redirect surnames when there are other full matches, as can be seen from the views the topics called just "Shelley" get more than 10% of the views of Percy and he is already primary for Percy Shelley. How many readers in an encyclopedia (as opposed to Google) would use just "Shelley" to get to Percy, its obvious you're going to search for the full name. In addition to the fact that Mary gets more views that Percy, Shelley Duvall also gets more (59,604) and Shelley Long gets 36,809 and Shelley Winters gets 29,855[[3]]. However if Percy is often known as just "Shelley" and the others aren't then we could include him on the main DAB to page per WP:NAMELIST. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:17, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • Unless she is the topic of conversation, an actress would not be referred to by her given name, especially within a Wikipedia article, unless the actress in question used it as a surname, such as Barbara Shelley, Carole Shelley or Cindy Shelley. As for Mary Shelley, her historical references did not solely name her by her husband's surname, primarily to avoid confusion, but also because the custom of referring to a woman by her surname is a relatively recent one. Ultimately, in the same manner as when one mentions Longfellow or Thoreau, when one simply mentions Shelley, it is understood as referring to Percy Bysshe. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • Even if Percy is the person commonly known by just "Shelley" the existence of full matches like the places and the film would probably prevent Percy from being primary. If we redirect "Shelley" to Percy then everyone looking for one of the full matches would have to find the link to the DAB after landing on Percy and only then would they find what they want, similarly someone looking for Mary or Shelley would have to have 3 clicks. Having the DAB at the base name and putting Percy directly on it (as well as the surname article) seems to cover all basis fine. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • "How many readers in an encyclopedia (as opposed to Google) would use just "Shelley" to get to Percy". With all due respect, I would guess quite a few. I would suspect that many people don't even know what Shelley's first name was. They've always heard him referred to simply as "Shelley". -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:06, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • Everyone knows to search for "Firstname Lastname" or "Lastname, Firstname" what percentage of those 88% are going to use just "Shelley" even if some people don't remember his 1st name? In addition to the fact that as noted some other nameholders are also highly viewed, also noting that May is also a level 4 vital article for PT#2. There's a way to test this, create a Shelley (poet) and pipe it on the DAB page and then see the views. I'd also point out that Lincoln doesn't redirect to the president despite the fact that its more common to refer to them by only their last name. The views don't support redirecting to the president. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:44, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only five relatively-uncommon surnames of U.S. presidents (Van Buren, Eisenhower, Nixon, Reagan and Obama) link directly to the presidents. All other presidential surname links flow to dab pages, surname pages and, in three cases (Garfield, Cleveland and Ford), to other topics. On the other hand, the mononyms or surnames of historical figures, such as Shelley, with an instantly recognizable mononym, at least as far as English Wikipedia is concerned, are expected to link directly. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:16, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, because Lincoln is also rather well-known as the name of a city! As well as other meanings. The best-known "Shelley", on the other hand, is, by a very long chalk, the poet, who is very commonly known mononymously, much more commonly than he is known by both names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 26 April 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. A primary topic requires that a topic be significantly more likely and/or important than all other topics, and Percy fails on both accounts with respect to his wife (in fact she gets more pageviews). The only plausible argument is then that "Shelley" alone in actual usage refers overwhelmingly to Percy, aka the MSG rule. But without hard evidence to support the claim, this argument is not enough to overcome the significance of his wife. I will set up a pageview test and we can revisit in a few months. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shelley (disambiguation) → Shelley – No primary topic for plain "Shelley". "Percy Bysshe Shelley" gets 52,100 views but everything else simply called "Shelley" gets 6,383. Given most reader looking for the poet will probably search for "Percy Bysshe Shelley" or "Percy Shelley" or "P. B. Shelley" its more likely that someone searching for just "Shelley" is probably looking for something called Shelley, however per WP:NAMELIST Percy should remain on the main DAB so that readers can still find him but its not appropriate to make everyone searching for something called just "Shelley" to go through 2 pages to find what there looking for (or 3 of looking for someone else with the name) meaning readers have to go Percy>DAB>Intended article and if someone is looking for someone else with the name they have to go Percy>DAB>Name article>Intended article, that's just not helpful, those wanting Percy can still find him on the main DAB without inconveniencing everyone else. The other entries on the main DAB (of which there are 16 and 2 in the See also) bring the number up to 7,612[[4]] (excluding the other DAB and the Victoria locality page). For views of the other people who are named (or surnamed) Shelley is 408,934[[5]] excluding topics like Twin Peaks but including the 3 other DAB pages[[6]]. Many of the other examples don't seem comparable that there given above for example Keats (disambiguation) only has a few entries (and the unincorporated community and crater are named after John) and most of the other uses of Galileo (disambiguation) are indeed named after scientist, by contrast the surname comes from the 3 English villages and there are other entries that have nothing to do with the poet. Shelley on the other hand is a common given name, place name and surname that has many uses unrelated to the poet. Shelley Duvall (94,335) and Shelley Long (81,707) get more views than the poet even though they are probably not as commonly known as just "Shelley" though people are sometimes known by only 1st name such as Madonna (entertainer) and Willian (footballer, born 1988) where we have even disambiguated them by putting their occupation in brackets rather than using their full name and Elvis Presley is commonly known as just "Elvis". In addition given names are commonly used, people normally refer to themselves and people they know by only 1st name, not last name. A Google search does show most results for Percy but the 2nd result is a map for the village in Suffolk, Google results probably aren't that reliable since on Google people are more likely to abbreviate things that when searching on WP and the Suffolk village map is probably because of my location. An Images search returns a bit more results for Percy but Mary Shelley, the TV series and people with the 1st name are also there. Compare for example Bismarck, Columbus and Lincoln that go to DAB pages even though Otto, Christopher and Abraham are more notable and Raleigh that goes to Raleigh, North Carolina despite Walter Raleigh also being important since it was indeed noted people typing Bismarck, Columbus or Lincoln are not significantly more likely to be looking for Bismarck, Christopher and Abraham (but are rather seeking something with the single word) since everyone knows to search by "Firstname Lastname" and similarly unqualified "Raleigh" is more likely to mean the city than the explorer. But in this case there are even other people who as noted actually get more views! do any of those other surnames have another PTM that gets more views than the stated surname holder above? I don't think that that's likely. By percentages Percy gets around 81% of the views of things simply called "Shelley", 68% of all the things on the DAB and only 8% of the views of everything on the DAB and the people with 1st and last name. Its quite clear that by PT#1 Percy is not "highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" when the reader searches for the plain term and given how widely the name is Percy doesn't have "substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term" for just the term "Shelley". Furthermore there are likely more articles since GeoNames also shows some other PTMs that could go on the DAB page as specific names per WP:PTM, the place in Australia is notable but only has a population of 7. intitle:"Shelley" shows a total of 370 pages including this name of which more could probably be added to the name article or DAB page. The given name and surname articles could still be split to Shelley (given name) and Shelley (surname) and then like Lewis there could be a section "People" (with "Shelley (name)" redirecting there) including the given name, surname, Percy and anyone else who is often known by the name alone to be included there per WP:NAMELIST. I thought redirecting to Percy shouldn't stand a chance in hell given the large number of other uses similar to Newton, Isaac Newton who is a lot better known than Percy and who I' personally associate "Newton" with isn't the primary topic while I'd personally associate Shelley with the given name (which as noted 2 get more views than Percy) or placename. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 21:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - too much potential for Special:WhatLinksHere/Shelley accumulating bad editor wikilinks, too many reasonable alternatives that internal searchers may be looking for, and no benefit at all to the vast majority of readers (who most often arrive via external search engine results). -- Netoholic @ 21:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose but I have modified the hatnotes at Percy Bysshe Shelley to (a) put the "Shelley" one at top above the less-used "Percy Shelley", and (b) add a shortcut to Shelley (name) to reduce number of clicks needed for readers seeking other people: I think this is reasonable in this case. Shelley (PBS) is one of those poets almost always referred to by his surname, while Mary Shelley is not. PamD 09:32, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I've come round to the idea that the author of Frankenstein is likely to be as much sought as her husband. So let's go for something on the lines of Randy Kryn's version. (The reversion was correct because while PBS was the primary topic the WP:MOSDAB rules say one thing, once he ceases to be so the rules are different). The "Percy Shelley" hatnote needs to stay on the poet's page - no point in making a dab page for just two other entries, and he's probably the primary topic - but the "Shelley" hatnote there will need to go if he is no longer the primary topic to which Shelley leads the reader. PamD 10:05, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I disagree with the (extraordinarily long) nomination from the very beginning: "Given most reader looking for the poet will probably search for "Percy Bysshe Shelley" or "Percy Shelley" or "P. B. Shelley"". As PamD points out, "Shelley (PBS) is one of those poets almost always referred to by his surname": see Scholar for examples. The status quo is fine, but this RM has resulted in PamD's tweaks which are a further improvement. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:26, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    All but 1 of the pages there use his full name in the title (the 1st result is user profiles). Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:04, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The very famous poet, very often referred to only by his surname, is the clear primary redirect here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think so judging by the sheer number of other uses, perhaps if anything it would be the given name which it was previously and I assumed was primary until I checked views and Google. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - page views, significance, recognizability, a great nomination... everything points to no primary topic for this very common base name. I'm really shocked to see people taking the other side - I hope WP:NWFCTM hasn't inadvertently become a factor. Red Slash 23:01, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Frankly, I'm really shocked to see that people don't think the poet is the primary topic! Maybe you don't think Charles is the primary topic for Dickens and George isn't the primary topic for Byron either? There are lots of Dickens and Byrons too. Shelley is just as famous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The likelihood of bad wlinks piling up tips me to support this one, as well as the fact that most searching for the poet will not search his bare surname. buidhe 05:42, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed this should be an easy case, fails page views criteria and long-term significance is held by multiple topics, as noted the surname derives from the English villages and also Mary Shelley gets more views and is also a level 4 vital article though its not clear if she is a competitor or not since she's Percy's wife and thus the name derives from him but even if we take them both together there's just too many other popular topics. If people really do think most people are looking for Percy with the single word a Shelley (poet) redirect could be set up per WP:DABTEST. I'd also note that while PamD's change does reduce mouse clicks it also clutters the Percy article meaning other users have it in their way. While I'm fine with hatnotes when there's a clear primary topic (as there is for the term Percy Shelley) there not appropriate when the choice of primary topic is arguably the wrong one (meaning a different topic, namely the name its self could be primary). Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. His wife Mary Shelley is more famous, and they are both famous enough to merit a disambiguation. — the Man in Question (in question) 20:34, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • His wife Mary Shelley is more famous. I do hope you're joking! No, she's not. Also note that she is almost never referred to simply as Shelley, whereas her husband very often is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 00:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not at all joking. Perhaps it differs by country. Certainly here in the United States Mary Shelley is significantly more famous than Percy Bysshe Shelley. Here, "Mary Shelley" is a household name to many, "Percy Bysshe Shelley" is not. Pageviews statistics would also tend to agree: [7]. I would also have to say that mononymic use of "Shelley" in America would imply to most Mary Shelley—for example, here: [8], [9], [10], [11], [12]. — the Man in Question (in question) 01:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • You must be kidding? What did Percy ever do that was a tenth as influential as Frankenstein? Red Slash 07:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except that's not how it should look under even the loosest adherence to WP:MOSDAB. older ≠ wiser 21:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Mary Shelley is just as if not more famous than Percy Bysshe Shelley. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. We don't need Bysshe to redirect to the poet any more than we need Schwenck to hatnote W. S. Gilbert - he's never known (except perhaps facetiously) simply as "Bysshe", and it's a variant spelling of Bush (surname), e.g. as for Edward Bysshe. I'm not even sure Percy Shelley should be a straight redirect to the poet: that seems more ambiguous. Oddly, the disambiguation page at Shelly includes entries for "Shelley", including the Suffolk village, Percy Bysshe and Mary. 62.165.200.11 (talk) 05:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think I've seen the village in Suffolk or the name written without the 2nd "e" so those entries could probably be moved. I'd still expect based on long-term significance and usage there's a reasonable case for "Percy Shelley" to be a redirect to the poet though. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:40, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • We've now got a surname article for Bysshe: other name-holders include a Garter King of Arms, a red-linked MP, PBS's Grand-dad, and a pseudonymous poet. Will satisfy those who wonder where his name came from. PamD 09:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And another for Schwenck (name), another case where the curious reader might want to know where the unusual name came from. PamD 09:40, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@PamD: That's great, thanks! Do you do requests? Clerihew?... Same ed as above, new IP 178.164.139.126 (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. By Jove, and I thought my RM nominations could be long sometimes. That aside, this seems like the right call. When I click that above "Shelley -Frankenstein" link, Percy doesn't even come up, just the mediocre horror movie Shelley from 4 years ago. But what tips the scales for me is that Shelley is currently being mislinked on various pages (Matthew Scurfield, Cassidy discography) which is evidence that a DAB page would probably be more helpful to editors there. Nohomersryan (talk) 00:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mention Mary first[edit]

I'd argue that Mary Shelley is far more famous (at least in popular culture) than Percy Shelley and should therefore be mentioned first.
Greetings, --Zamomin (talk) 12:50, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Test redirects[edit]

@King of Hearts: re [19] is it time to restore the direct redirects and G7 the test redirects? Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd point out now that Shelley (musician) gets 6,605 views compared to 49,557 for Percy Bysshe Shelley[[20]] so its not plausible now that the poet is primary by usage currently against the musician since its likely far more people will use "Shelley" alone when looking for the musician than the poet. Also Percy Bysshe Shelley (from disambiguation) has 206, Shelley (name, from disambiguation) has 55, Mary Shelley (from disambiguation) has 33, Shelley (TV series, from disambiguation) has 32 and Shelley (film, from disambiguation) has 18 but the DAB page Shelley has 617[[21]] presumably from the musician or the other topics. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since Shelley (musician) is a significant source of hits which did not exist when the pageview experiment was started, the results of the experiment are no longer valid (i.e. they do not imply that Percy either is or is not the primary Shelley). I have created Shelley (musician, from disambiguation), and we'll have to continue the experiment. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:28, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Page views from 12.8.2010-2.10.2020 (long before the musician was moved in March this year) show 541 for Percy, 116 for name, 91 for Mary, 64 for TV series and 36 for film but 1,415 for DAB[[22]]. So that probably shows Percy is the most popular target but more people weren't looking for him. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:29, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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