Talk:Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca

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Requested move 23 February 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Camilo Catrillanca → Death of Camilo Catrillanca – Camilo Catrillanca is primarily known and notable for they circumstances of his death. His prior life and activism is as far as I am concerned totally unnotable for Wikipedia. Note that "Mapuche activism" is also a very vague category and that unless the activism has gained some notoriety should not be enought to give some kind of notability to a person. Dentren | ^Talk 17:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 12:11, 4 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 00:26, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca or Killing of Camilo Catrillanca – The usual title format for deaths by shooting (in the absence of a murder conviction). — BarrelProof (talk) 18:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a "homicidio simple" conviction from January this year. [1] I guess that translates in English into manslaughter. Dentren | ^Talk 19:13, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we use "Manslaughter of X" or "Homicide of X" titles, so I'll stick with what I suggested. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:36, 23 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This article is about the person, not just his death. This sort of move has happened before and needs a rethink. We don't retitle the article on Albert Einstein as Work of Albert Einstein but that's the whole reason for his notability. The article is a good one and the topic is the person, not just the killing and its repercussions. And if we were to rename to Shooting of... or Killing of... and rescope, we are taking a POV that it was not murder, and may need to move again if a conviction were to occur. Andrewa (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrewa, that analogy you gave is particularly poor and proofs instead that in contrast to Eistein, Catrillanca is only notable for his death. If anything Catrillanca's grandfather or father may at most have notability as indigenous leaders, not him. Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Subjects_notable_only_for_one_event states:

If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article.

BarrelProof, I have no problem with "Killing of Camilo Catrillanca", and that is so far in my opinion the best brief description of what happened. That he was killed is beyond dubt. "Death of Camilo Catrillanca" may suggest as in the case of Death of Santiago Maldonado that he was not killed. Dentren | ^Talk 11:18, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we've read the guideline. Consensus can change, and this RM may provide evidence that it has. Disagree that it's a poor analogy. It calls into question the arbitrariness of trying to determine who is likely to remain a low-profile individual. Andrewa (talk) 16:24, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BIO1E very clearly does not apply to Einstein. Einstein was highly prominent over a long period of time, published multiple (not just one) notable works in physics, and was even prominent on subjects outside of physics. Even his private life has been the subject of a very large amount of WP:IRS coverage. WP:BIO1E does apply to Catrillanca. If he wasn't killed, we would have never heard of him. — BarrelProof (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All true! They are extreme cases, chosen for a thought experiment. But note the title I suggested... Work of Albert Einstein. It encompasses all of his notability. He was also a recreational sailor and a violinist and exceptionally forgetful and struggled to learn the tensor calculus to the point that Levi-Civita advised him to give up. And that's all interesting and encyclopedic. But if not for his work, none of it would appear in IRS, and none of it would belong in Wikipedia. And nor would Einstein. So it's a straw man. They have their uses. Andrewa (talk) 17:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Subjects notable only for one event does not apply here because the subject is not living. WP:BIO1E still do though. ~ Aseleste_{charge-parity}^time 12:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrewa, when you write about "the arbitrariness of trying to determine who is likely to remain a low-profile individual.", do you have any clue that may hint Catrillanca is not going to remain a low-profile individual known only for his death? Because if not those who say he is not going to remain a low-profile individual are doing a leap of faith. There are plenty precedents of Mapuche people killed by Chilean police in the last 25 years that have not rose to particular prominence other than being known for their death. Why would Catrillanca be different? Dentren | ^Talk 00:54, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Camilo Catrillanca → Death of Camilo Catrillanca. "Death of..." is overly broad and has been used as main title headers of articles detailing non-violent historical deaths, such as Death of Ludwig van Beethoven, Death of Edgar Allan Poe, Death of Marilyn Monroe or Death of Michael Jackson, but would support either Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca, per BarrelProof or simply retention of existing header, Camilo Catrillanca, per Andrewa, as preferred by consensus. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So far it appears that I, BarrelProof and Roman Spinner are positive towards moving the article to Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca, and while Roman Spinner seem also content with keeping the name per Andrewa's argument. Yet I fail to see how Andrewa's argument would be valid. Indeed it seem to imply Catrillanca may in future be known for something else than his death, which I deem unlikely and a position that no RS, Chilean or international, so far seem to support. Dentren | ^Talk 03:01, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Following up on that latest comment by Dentren, I have the impression that a consensus can be declared for Shooting of Camilo Catrillanca. This RM has been open for a long time, with two weeks since the last comment. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.