Talk:Shooto/Archive 1

merge with shoot boxing?

What's the relation to Shoot boxing?--Janto 01:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

And Shootfighting/Shoot fighting? I'm suggesting a merger.--Janto 01:53, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Shoot boxing is a new style kickboxing which is developped from kickboxing, and shooto is the name of mixed martial arts in Japan. They sound similar, but they are completely different sports. If you say shoot boxing is same as shooto, it is same as that you say boxing and kickboxing are same.Yappakoredesho 11:08, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[shooto] combines elements of wrestling and boxing. Is there any kicking involved? From the articles it looks like Satoru Sayama had something to do with both. Sayama developed Shooto and inspired Caesar Takeshi to promote(?) shoot boxing. Correct? Why does shootfighting mention shooto? Is shootfighting and shoot boxing the same thing?--Janto 19:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Shooto is an individual MMA organization, just as PRIDE or UFC is. MMA, as a sport, includes ground fighting; please read the definition of MMA at mixed martial arts. As such, it should not be merged with shoot boxing. However, Shootfighting can be merged into this article. Shawnc 05:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

OK. I'm going to simply dump the shootfighting article into a shooto subsection and redirect shootfighting and shoot fighting. --Janto 10:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The article has been edited for these changes. Shawnc 05:25, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Very nicely done. Respect. --Janto 13:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cleared up the issue?

Ok, I think i've cleared up the issue about Shootfighting, shooto, and shoot wrestling. They have their separate articles now, even though they are quite similar =) ---Marcus- 23:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm still going to so some more research into shoot wrestling, it needs to be cleared up further. ---Marcus- 23:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool! Do you have any idea what the "shoot" in shootfighting/wrestling means? --Janto 16:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It has two meanings that I know of:

• "Shoot" generally means the type of full contact style that these sports involve; as compared a "worked" style(such as in American professional wrestling). Check this page out: The Japanese Pro-Wrestling.
• A "shoot" can also mean a takedown attempt. ---Marcus- 16:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

hi, I was just wondering is there any shoot schools in the us or is there shoot wrestling schools ---bjj07-

About this particular addition

User 144.131.64.233 has added the following translation of shooto twice already: "The word Shooto an English transliteration of the Japanese words SHU TO, is actually no-sensical as it translates as "to study or master a unit of volume!" "SHU" (修) means to study or to master, and "TO" (斗) is a unit of volume.". I don't know about it's correctness (and it doesn't make much sense), but I expect that TO can mean multiple things. For now, it's best to stick with the translation given in [1]. Anyone who is knowledgeable in Japanese is welcome to provide imput. --Marcus 11:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese version of this article says:

創始当初は「シューティング」と名乗り、翌1985年に創始者・佐山によって「斗いを修める（たたかいをおさめる）」という意の当て字を使い「修斗＝シュート＝SHOOTO」という名称が考案された。

In the beginning, [the organization/system] was called "shooting", and in 1985, creator Sayama used "斗 (tataka) i wo 修 (osa) meru" as an ateji to come up with 修斗 from シュート, making SHOOTO"

Basically, this describes a very common practice in Japanese of creating ateji. It's like creating a meaning out of an acronym (I've forgotten what this was called, but it's on the Wikipedia article).

"修斗" is non-sensical in that there's no such word, but the two individual characters have meanings in their own right, but translating "斗" to "volume" is wrong - in this case, it has the reading "tatakai", although that's not the way battle (戦い, tatakai) is usually written. I hope this makes sense. - Tangotango 12:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that the relevant passage be changed to the following:

The word Shooto is an English transliteration of 修斗^?, an ateji meaning "learn combat" from the Japanese rendering of the English word "shoot".

I hope this helps. - Tangotango 12:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Further clarification: 修 is usually read "osameru", and means: (according to the Genius Waei (Ja->En) dictionary) "learn", "master", "cultivate", or "acquire". 斗 is read "to", and it means (according to the 広辞苑 Kōjien, a Japanese-Japanese dictionary):

1. a unit of volume used for liquids
2. another unit of volume used for construction
3. another unit of volume used for liquors
4. (something to do with astronomy)
5. (something to do with construction)

斗 also has the reading "tatakai", rarely used. Tatakai is a Japanese word meaning battle, combat or war. In this case the meaning is irrelevant; it's simply used as a convenient character that just happens to read "tatakai", or the same as "combat".

I don't think the above constitutes original research (the material comes from the Japanese Wikipedia, so you might like to cite that). As for the explanation, I don't think that's really original research either because anyone with a Japanese language education can probably deduce that much. - Tangotango 12:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your rigorous explanation! One thing which eludes me is the reading of "修". Where does the shu in shu-to come from (if 修 is read osameru)?. --Marcus 12:53, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have explained that too. Japanese kanji have zero or more on (音読み, on-yomi) readings, as well as zero or more kun (訓読み, kun-yomi) readings. The 修 character has the following on readings: "shu" (シュ) and "shū" (シュウ), and the following kun readings: "おさ・まる" (修まる) and "おさ・める" (修める). Basically, "shū" is another way of reading "修". (Or rather, is the default reading when the character is seen alone). I hope I have't missed anything out this time ;) Oh, and for the sake of complete citing, this data comes from the 漢字源 (kanjigen) kanji dictionary. - Tangotango 13:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

On the basis of your assistance, i've formulated a two-sentence explanation of shooto.--Marcus 13:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, it's not really correct to say that 修斗 can be read as "osameru tatakai" ... it would be better to say that the meaning of 修斗 in Japanese is 斗いを修める (read "tatakai wo osameru", translated correctly in the article as "learn combat"). To explain a little more about the character 斗, it is indeed a unit of measurement, but it is sometimes used as a shorthand character for the more complex 闘, which means combat or fighting. Write 闘 a few times and you'll see why people use 斗 to save time! CES 13:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, if Tangotango agrees, then there is consensus and i'll change it into "meaning", and "takatai wo osameru". --Marcus 14:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. It's "tatakai wo osameru", btw. CES, thanks for helping us out. I didn't know that "斗" was a shorthand (ryakuji?) for 闘. - Tangotango 14:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Glad to help, I'd never even heard of Shooto! Ryakuji can be a bit of a pain ... I'm a little surprised they used one as part of the "official" name of a sport. CES 15:06, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I've modified the sentence accordingly. Check it for accuracy please, and thanks for all the assistance! --Marcus 20:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem at all. I took out the phrase "tatakai wo osameru" as it is the Japanese meaning (rather than pronunciation) of 修斗, which would always be pronounced shūto. I hope this helps! CES 22:54, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Yuki Nakai

Someone added a page for Yuki Nakai and it was prodded for deletion. Would anybody here like to add or fix that page? I know nothing about shooto, but he seems notable from what I've read. Thanks! Wirewad 09:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Definitely a fighter notable enough to have a wikipedia article! I've copy-edited and cleaned up the article. --Marcus 12:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Vale Tudo Japan

I propose merging Vale Tudo Japan into this article. Since that article is a sentence long, it seems like this should be a no-brainer. Any objections? hateless 16:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. hateless 23:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)