Talk:Sie werden euch in den Bann tun, BWV 183/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Carbrera (talk · contribs) 02:33, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

• The image of Christiana Mariana von Ziegler requires an alt description so please add one

Done. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 08:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• In the "Instrumental" parameter, you can link each of the instruments please
• Couldn't you add the composer's name "Johann Sebastian Bach" here?

(watching:) No. It used to be the full name but was considered too long, when the genre was also introduced, matching {{infobox opera}}. This was changed only by adding a space, and is the stable and accepted version, used in FAs and GAs. Please compare some of these, such as BWV 161 (and perhaps their reviews), and see if some of your questions are answered, - it's a series of similar articles. The instruments are not all linked because the parameter has a link to Baroque instruments, - the link to violin doesn't really help the reader to understand that Bach's violins were different, for example. An alt for an image is desirable, but requested only on FA level, afaik. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:48, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Lead

• "He composed it in Leipzig for Exaudi, the Sunday after Ascension, and first performed it on 13 May 1725." --> "He composed it for Exaudi, the Sunday after Ascension, and first performed it on 13 May 1725 in Leipzig."
• Then remember to link "Leipzig" again please

no, place first (he also composed in Arnstadt, Weimar ...), - mentioning the place gives an idea of where in his bio we are, before getting to the complicated occasion. - It's highly debatable if the link to modern Leipzig helps at all, - would you link Munich? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

History and words

Paragraph 1

• "Bach wrote the cantata..." --> Link to Bach's respective article here please

Done. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 11:16, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

• "The prescribed readings for the feast day were from the First Epistle of Peter, "serve each other" (1 Peter 4:8–11), and from the second Farewell discourse in the Gospel of John, the promise of the Paraclete, the "Spirit of Truth", and the announcement of prosecution (John 15:26–16:4).[2]" --> "The prescribed readings for the feast day were from the First Epistle of Peter, "serve each other" (1 Peter 4:8–11), the second Farewell discourse in the Gospel of John, the promise of the Paraclete, the "Spirit of Truth", and the announcement of prosecution (John 15:26–16:4).[2]"

Paragraph 2

• "In his second year Bach had composed..." --> "By his second year, Bach had composed..."

I have tried to clarify this section. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 16:08, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Publication

• "Bach´s music was not published until 1891 when it appeared as part of the first complete edition of the composer´s work, the New Bach Edition. The editor of the volume in question was Alfred Dörffel." --> No source

Sorry I mentioned the wrong edition. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 08:23, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Ziegler published the text in a collection of her work, along with the other ones set by Bach (Versuch in gebundener Schreib-Art 1728)." --> No source
• "These printed versions are slightly different from the texts used in the cantatas, and this is believed to be the result of the composer modifying the libretti with which he was presented." --> No source

I have given a couple of sources. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 09:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Structure and scoring

• "Bach structured the cantata in five movements, beginning with a recitative..." --> Link "movements" to the respective article "Movement (music)" please

Done. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 08:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Bach structured the cantata in five movements, beginning with a recitative of the bass as the vox Christi, quoting Jesus in a line from the gospel, followed by a sequence aria–recitative–aria, and concluded by a four-part chorale." --> No source

I have deleted the bit about the vox Christi which is discussed in another section. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 08:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Bach scored the work for four vocal soloists (soprano, alto, tenor and bass), a four-part choir only in the closing chorale, and a Baroque instrumental ensemble in an unusual combination of instruments, two oboes d'amore (Oa), two oboes da caccia (Oc), two violins (Vl), viola (Va), a violoncello piccolo (Vp) and basso continuo.[2][3]" --> "Bach scored the work for four vocal soloists (soprano, alto, tenor and bass), a four-part choir only in the closing chorale, and a Baroque instrumental ensemble in an unusual combination of instruments: two oboes d'amore (Oa), two oboes da caccia (Oc), two violins (Vl), viola (Va), a violoncello piccolo (Vp) and basso continuo.[2][3]"

The references for the paragraph are at the end. I added the online version of Dürr, translated by Jones, for verification. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Music

• "The first movement is given to the bass as the vox Christi (voice of Christ)." --> No source

I am not sure of the most appropriate source for this. Should it be the printed score or commentary? --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 10:03, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

There is a source: at the end of a paragraph or a group of sentences, in this case (and many others) Dürr. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:37, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Movement 3 is again a recitativo accompagnato, even more complex than the first one: the strings play long chords, whereas all the oboes repeat the same four-note motif throughout the movement, sung by the alto on the words "Ich bin bereit" (I am ready).[1]" --> "Movement 3 is again a recitativo accompagnato, even more complex than the first one; the strings play long chords, whereas all the oboes repeat the same four-note motif throughout the movement, sung by the alto on the words "Ich bin bereit" (I am ready).[1]"

Done (semi-colon). --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 10:01, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

• "The second aria is accompanied by the strings and the two oboes da caccia in unison as obbligato instruments, thus both arias are dominated by instruments in the lower range." --> No source

I have expanded the material about the range of the instruments. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 10:03, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Overall in this section:

"In the first aria, denying the fear of the threatening death, the violoncello piccolo plays continuous runs.[1] The second movement is the longest of the work, with a "dark and shaded" timbre representing the protection provided by Christ.[5]

Movement 3 is again a recitativo accompagnato, even more complex than the first one: the strings play long chords, whereas all the oboes repeat the same four-note motif throughout the movement, sung by the alto on the words "Ich bin bereit" (I am ready).[1]

The second aria is accompanied by the strings and the two oboes da caccia in unison as obbligato instruments, thus both arias are dominated by instruments in the lower range.

The cantata is closed by a four part chorale on the tune "Helft mir Gotts Güte preisen".[7]"

Change to

"In the first aria, denying the fear of the threatening death, the violoncello piccolo plays continuous runs.[1] The second movement is the longest of the work, with a "dark and shaded" timbre representing the protection provided by Christ.[5] Movement 3 is again a recitativo accompagnato, even more complex than the first one: the strings play long chords, whereas all the oboes repeat the same four-note motif throughout the movement, sung by the alto on the words "Ich bin bereit" (I am ready).[1] The second aria is accompanied by the strings and the two oboes da caccia in unison as obbligato instruments, thus both arias are dominated by instruments in the lower range. The cantata is closed by a four part chorale on the tune "Helft mir Gotts Güte preisen".[7]"

For consistency with other articles, and for clarity of the structure, each movement should have its own paragraph, even if short. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Selected recordings

• All good!

End of GA Review:

A pretty decent article with some minor fixes here and there. I will be placing this article on hold for seven days to allow for any changes. Please @PING me here with any questions, comments, or concerns. Thank you so much and good luck! Cheers, Carbrera (talk) 03:50, 22 June 2016 (UTC).

@Gerda Arendt: Please @PING me once you have completed addressing any issues so I may review it again; thank you! Carbrera (talk) 03:11, 27 June 2016 (UTC).

Carbrera, thank you for the review: Thoughtfortheday is the nominator, I only responded to questions from the perspective of consistency with a set of GAs regarding Bach's cantatas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Just to say I have seen this, and have been giving some attention to addressing outstanding issues. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 10:10, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

@Carbrera: I have done as much as I can for the time being. I am not in the UK which restricts my access to sources. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 09:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

@Thoughtfortheday: I'll look over the article to see if I catch anything else to add here. Thanks! Cheers, Carbrera (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2016 (UTC).

@Thoughtfortheday: Yes, everything checks out. Thanks so much for letting me review this. I look forward to working with you in the future. Cheers, Carbrera (talk) 03:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)!

@Carbrera: Thank-you. It has been a pleasure to work with you. --Thoughtfortheday (talk) 08:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)