Talk:Silent Hill/Archive 1

Themes and Motifs of Silent Hill

I think it would be interesting to list the recurring imagery and themes that run throughout the games e.g hospitalisation, childbirth etc etc.

I'm reading this section, and its looking a little like original research. However, at the very least, some of the wording needs to be changed, especially in the opening paragraph. It essentially states that everyone sees these in the games if they play them. Crisco 1492 23:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Also,

When Japan still used the squatting toilet, there were tales of children falling down and vanishing forever.

Japan still uses these toilets to this day. Especially in schools, older public buildings, etc. Stories about falling in are still part of the child cultural milleu. - 219.194.176.98 15:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like the "bathroom" section of the themes and motifs section to be cut down a little. Some of the information is a little trivial(such as the SH3 reference to the SH2 toilet scene), over-explanitory and a little spoilerish. Plus, I believe "the player reaches the otherworld in Sh3 and 4 by going through a bathroom", so there is little need to mention SH4 at the end of the paragraph.

A section on dopplegangers, or the theme of being more than one person, would be excellent to include. Alessa and Cheryl/Heather, Maria and Mary, Little Walter and Older Walter could be possible examples. Something along the lines of the doppleganger theme is quite an Asian theory, representing the good and evil half of one person. However, although one can relate SH movie (alessa and Sharon) to this theory of good/evil sides, it debatably cannot be related to the SH1 game (which inspired the majority of the film).

Question about Among the Damned

In the comics section, for Among the Damned, the following is stated: including his childhood friend Aaron and being loved by his friend, Dahlia. I have no idea what this means. It's not only grammatically incorrect, it's confusing - WHO is being loved by his friend, Dahlia? Why is the mention of Dahlia pertinent? As someone who has never read the comics, I can't correct it - I don't know what the author was trying to say. Can someone who does know what the book's about fix that so it's more understandable?

    More context would be helpful ! --Rebootedrock 00:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Seperate pages

This page needs some revision. It would be best to make each one its own seperate page, with links between them. Also, their exist other things entitled "Silent Hill." There is a song by that name, and I would imagine there is also possibly an actual place

I think it's only a good idea to split this page into several articles if there's anyone willing find and add such content. I do like Silent Hill, but I know I don't know that much about it to make this article much better. Splitting this into other articles would be a bad idea if there isn't enough new content to add. About a song with that name, I'm not sure. And about an actual place, I've never heard of that. The town in the game is supposed to be located in the US, but it's fictional. That's a fact. There might exist some place called "Silent Hill" somewhere, but it's probably just unknown to most people. A Google search won't help. Too many results regarding the games themselves to get anything else. – Kaonashi 18:29, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Mary

Mary complains about how the hospital is keeping her alive forcibly, and how every day is a misery. How is that wanting to be alive?

What I gathered from the game was that it was her medication that caused her condition and attitude, and james simply couldn't take the emotional and psycological pain from seeing his wife in such torment.. Somewhere in there I remember him giving her flowers or something and she basically cursed him out of the room, or maybe that was when he finally couldn't take it anymore. In conclusion, she may have wanted to live, but the medication itself could have altered her thoughts.--Rebootedrock 01:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Character section formatting

Someone please edit my character section of Silent Hill 2. I can put in content but I'm not very good at format. - Endlessmug

Hi Endlessmug,

I've rolled your changes back because I don't think they are necessary for the page, nor do I think that they meet the content guidelines. Perhaps this information would be more relevent to a Silent Hill 2-specific page? What does everybody else think? --waka 05:01, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, someone should make a Silent Hill 2 page. - Endlessmug

Inspiration for Silent Hill

I've watched a couple of Japanese horror movies recenetly (Dark Water, The Ring, The Grudge etc.) and I'm wondering if these, or the books they are taken from, has had any impact on the SH series. The author Kôji Suzuki, apparently the 'Stephen King of Japan', has written some horror, I'm sure Team Silent used some stuff from him. I was espically pondering on Dark Water and the water that suddenly drips from the hotel's walls and ceiling at the end of Silent Hill 2. Anyone who can verify any connections?

I spoke briefly with Akria Yamaoka about this exact topic at the Game Developer's Conference this year. He gave a talk about the atmosphere in Silent Hill (the slides are here (Powerpoint Format)), and one of his points was that Silent Hill was explicitly created to mimic what he called American Modern Horror. He sighted Stephen King, H.P. Lovecraft, and David Lynch as examples of inspiring American horror authors. He mentioned, however, that since he and his team are Japanese, the Japanese approach to horror probably made it into the games unconsciously. He went on to speak about some of the differences in approach between American and Japanese-style horror. When I spoke with him after his talk, I asked him how he felt about modern Japanese popular horror, such as The Ring and The Grudge. His response was that he felt that The Ring was quite Japanese, as the true horror of the situation isn't ever really revealed and all of the violence and even the antagonist are largely absent from the screen. The Grudge, on the other hand, he found to be more American, as it was much freer with its clear depiction of the antagonists (the cat-boy, etc). So my guess is that the movies you mention are similar to Silent Hill because they are both influenced by traditional Japanese culture, but I do not think there is a direct connection between the movies and the games. Also, Silent Hill 1 predates original Ring movie (both came out in 1998, so Silent Hill was probably in production for at least a year before that). Finally, I've heard (from someone--now I can't remember where) that the "Stephen King of Japan" monkier for Suzuki is fairly inaccurate. That's second-hand knowledge on my part, though. --waka 04:55, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. I really wish I could have seen that presentation, it seemed very interesting.

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"Though the town of Silent Hill is officially located somewhere in New England, there is a body of water in the town named Toluca Lake, named after the real Toluca Lake in Southern California, near Burbank, North Hollywood, and Studio City. This serves as a roundabout homage to Director David Lynch; Lynch is legendary for having eaten lunch at Bob's Big Boy restaurant every day for approximately seven years straight. That particular Bob's Big Boy is located in Toluca Lake, CA on Riverside Drive, just down the road from Warner Bros. Studios and Universal Studios."

I'll admit I don't know everything about the inspirations... but where is it said that Silent Hill in the games is located in New England? Or for that matter that Tuluca Lake is a David Lynch connection? - Kingpin1055

Kult RPG

Has anyone noticed the stunningly big similarities concerning Silent Hill and the early nineties role playing game Kult? Starting from theme (e.g. the idea of personal purgatories, of shattering layers of realities ["reality is a lie", "death is only the beginning", Kult subtitles]) and going further to the gloomy "feel", symbolism and even imagery and aesthetics, at least the Silent Hill movie adaption is pretty close to what Kult RPG felt like for many players. -- marilyn.hanson 08:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comics

Just wondering if we have any sources to back up the recently-added statement that Paint it Black is regarded as the best of the Silent Hill comics. I've not read the comics and I have no idea, but do we have any source for this anywhere? --waka 23:25, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I din't think that's a true statment, it seems to be more opinion than anything. thaddius

Samael

Samael was never present in Silent Hill, as many non-Japanese fans believe. Dahlia, the old woman in the first game, lied about the Seal that Harry possesses, and it is in fact the Seal of Metatron (which reappears in Silent Hill 3). The confusion arose from poor translation in the game from Japanese to English, and in fact God was only referred to as Samael one time in the game. Both Samael and Metatron are taken from the Kabbalah.

I removed this text because I don't know what it means. The information seems interesting, but the grammar isn't clear. Why isn't Samael present? Does this paragraph suggest that Samael is actually Metatron? Or that the Flaros, being the Seal of Metatron, had something to do with Samael not being present? Or is it trying to say that something other than Samael is responsible for twisting Silent Hill around? What exactly was poorly translated? Just saying that there was a translation error is confusing; please provide some context about what sort of text was misleading. What's the relevance of referring to God as Samael once or more in the game?

The information stated here sounds very interesting and relevant, but the way it is written is very confusing. Could somebody clean up the text and re-add it? Until then, I'm removing it in the interests of maintaining clarity in the article. --waka 21:14, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try and clarify it. It's here because it's a main misconception in Silent Hillology. A lot of people talk about Samael's influence in SH 2-4, when in fact he's not even there.Loui Da Boss

A main misconception outside Japan is that the angel Samael was the main protagonist in the first Silent Hill and therefore had some influence in the following installments. In fact Samael was never involved in the incidents surrounding Silent Hill. Dahlila, the old woman in the first game, lied about the Seal that Harry possesses and the various Marks found around the town, calling them the Mark of Samael. It is in fact the Seal of Metatron (which reappears in Silent Hill 3). The confusion arose from poor translation from Japanese to English at the end of the game, where the last boss is faced. The creature that causes the disturbances in Silent Hill in the first game, Incubus, and in the third is a physical manifestation of the god that a cult in Silent Hill worships. The history of the cult and the god they worship is revealed in Silent Hill 3. Whether it has had an impact in Silent Hill 2 and 4 is debatable, but there is a Mark alike those found in the first game at the end of the second, so it is possible that the god's influence is still present throughout the series.

How is this then?Loui Da Boss

Sounds much better. One point to clarify: it's commonly mistakenly understood that Samael is the protagonist of SH1? Don't you mean antagonist? People believe that Samael is the enemy, not that Harry is actually Samael, right? Also, I'm still not clear what the poor translation was. What did the English version say, and where was it wrong?

Also, I performed some minor edits for grammatical clarity. I hope you don't mind:

A common misconception outside of Japan is that the angel Samael is the main protagonist in the first Silent Hill game. However, Samael is actually never involved in the incidents surrounding Silent Hill. In the first Silent Hill game, Dahlila lies about the Seal that Harry possesses and the various Marks found around the town, calling them the Mark of Samael. The Seal is in fact the Seal of Metatron (which reappears in Silent Hill 3). A poorly worded translation from Japanese to English at the end of Silent Hill also added to the confusion. The creature that causes the disturbances in the first and third game, Incubus, is a physical manifestation of the god that a cult in Silent Hill worships. The history of the cult and the god they worship is revealed in Silent Hill 3. Whether this creature exerts influence in Silent Hill 2 and 4 is debatable, but a Mark similar to those in Silent Hill 1 is present at the end of Silent Hill 2, suggesting that the god may play a role throughout the series.--waka 16:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

A common misconception outside of Japan is that the angel Samael is the main antagonist in the first Silent Hill game. However, Samael is actually never involved in the incidents surrounding Silent Hill. In the first Silent Hill game, Dahlila lies about the Seal that Harry possesses and the various Marks found around the town, calling them the Mark of Samael. The Seal is in fact the Seal of Metatron (which reappears in Silent Hill 3). A poorly worded translation from Japanese to English at the end of Silent Hill also added to the confusion. The creature that causes the disturbances in the first game, Incubus, and Silent Hill 3, is a physical manifestation of the god that a cult in Silent Hill worships. The history of the cult and the god they worship is revealed in Silent Hill 3. Whether this creature exerts influence in Silent Hill 2 and 4 is debatable, but a Mark similar to those in Silent Hill 1 is present at the end of Silent Hill 2, suggesting that the god may play a role throughout the series.

Yes, sorry, antagonist. I'm not too sure about what the exact translation problem was, check out this site, at the end [1]. I edited your text about the difference between the boss in the first and third game, because it is not called 'Incubus' in the third. I'm not sure what it is, but it's definitely not Incubus, or the 'Winged Demon' as it is also refered to. If you've played both, I'm sure you'll agree with me on this.Loui Da Boss

Oh ok, I misunderstood what you were trying to say there about Incubus. How's this for a final version (minor revision for flow):

A common misconception outside of Japan is that the angel Samael is the main antagonist in the first Silent Hill game. However, Samael is actually never involved in the incidents surrounding Silent Hill. In the first Silent Hill game, Dahlila lies about the Seal that Harry possesses and the various Marks found around the town, calling them the Mark of Samael. The Seal is in fact the Seal of Metatron (which reappears in Silent Hill 3). A poorly worded translation from Japanese to English at the end of Silent Hill also added to the confusion. The creatures that cause the disturbances in the first and third games are a physical manifestation of the god that a cult in Silent Hill worships (in the first game, the creature is named 'Incubus'). The history of the cult and the god they worship is revealed in Silent Hill 3. Whether this creature exerts influence in Silent Hill 2 and 4 is debatable, but a Mark similar to those in Silent Hill 1 is present at the end of Silent Hill 2, suggesting that the god may play a role throughout the series.

If you are happy with it, go ahead and post it back to the page. Thanks for the clarification! --waka 22:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I appriciate the help.Loui Da Boss

Samael vs Metatron

This section of text is apparently somewhat contentious:

The mark that appears throughout Silent Hill is that of Samael's, NOT the mark of Metatron. The Mark of Samael is a triangle within a twin circle that is filled with symbols - the mark we see in the games - whilst Metatron is a series of interconnected circles and lines that bear no resemblance to the mark we actually see. Numerous game guides released actually name the mark as that of Samael as well. This does not necessarily prove that Samael is encountered in the games, only that it is his symbol seen throughout Silent Hill. In Silent Hill 3 however, one of the characters says things that suggest he does not see any actual difference between the Devil and God, and since Samael is regarded as Satan himself (i.e. the Devil) and the cult appear to worship him as a God, it seems very likely. The confusion between the two marks likely arises from the fact that Harry, in Silent Hill 1, uses Metatron as a means to combat the power of Samael. Metatron is a symbol of good, whilst the mark of Samael is a symbol of evil. Therefor Metatron is a weapon to combat Alessa, who wields the power of the Cults God, Samael. This symbology, the power of light and dark fighting one another, and of light prevailing, is common in Angelic and religious writings.

It was recently replaced with:

The mark that Harry encounters throughout the original game is, in fact, the Seal of Metatron/Metraton. The Seal of Metatron is a pair of concentric circles, and inside that, a large triangle and several symbols, and is said to seal away the powers of evil. The second symbol, seen in Silent Hill 3 and 4, is known as the Halo of the Sun. It is designed similarly to the Mark of Metatron, being two concentric circles, but filled with three circles in a triangle pattern, the internal circles standing for Life, Death, and Rebirth. The confusion between the two marks likely arises from the fact that Harry, in Silent Hill 1, is told by Dahlia Gillespie that the Seal of Metatron is the Mark of Samael, in hopes of decieving Harry. The Halo of the Sun is the true symbol of the Cult, better known as "The Order."

Now, since there are no references to back up either of these arguments, I've (again) removed the entire section. To replace it, I think somebody needs to: 1) come up with references (or proof; in game screenshot?) to back up their side of the argument, or 2) rewrite this paragraph to suggest that there is some debate about the nature of the Seal that Harry encounters.

--waka 18:58, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The first article is very, very wrong.

The second article is correct, but it is also incomplete. Silent Hill 3 explains that the mark many people thought was the Mark of Samael was really the Seal of Metatron. However, later in the game it is revealed through the Otherworld Laws book that the real name of the symbol is the Virun VII Crest. This text also goes on to explain what the Crest is and its purpose, which clears up any confusion.

I don't understand what Dahlia would lie about Samael. Samael is the "Prince of the demons" [2] and Metatron is an angel [3]. Why would she lie and say that she wanted a demon to go after his daughter? On the slight possiblity that Harry knew Jewish lore, why would she lie? She had no reason to at all. It just makes no sense to me. --Thaddius 23:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Dahlia wanted to trick Harry into getting close enough to Alessa to break the Virun VII crest. By convincing him that it was the mark of Samael(something evil), then he would pursue it as an enemy, instead of recognizing that Alessa had positive plans in mind and the Virun crest was being used to ward away the "darkness". Samael is not real, it was a red-herring name that Dahlia used. It's like saying "the devil did it".

Silent Hill 5?

Nothing in this article has mentioned Silent Hill 5 even though it has its own article. Is this purely based on rumors? ~ Hibana 23:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

That article has obviously been canned and as yet, no concrete news has surfaced about a fifth installment.

it is confirmed: http://news.gamewinners.com/index.php/news/1631/ Scix 11:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

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It's been "confirmed". But nothing more than speculation about the game really exists (plot/story/characters etc.) TotalTommyTerror 06:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It has been confirmed officially at E3. The fifth installment will be Silent Hill: 0rigins, for PSP. Any further installment of the series on any non-portable system is at this stage, just a rumor. Both Silent Hill 5 and Silent Hill: 0rigins sections could use some updating to reflect this.

Fan-Crazed

All right, this page is seriously one of the worst examples of getting nailed by fan sites. As fan sites themselves can either be found through a web-search and are not official, I think we should remove all fan links from the wiki page.

There are numerous other wiki pages that follow this rule as what tends to happen is that everyone and their dog with a geocities shrine likes to tag the external links page with their own site.

I move for the deletion of all fan related websites from the external links, they tarnish the objectivity of the page. TotalTommyTerror 17:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree with you here, this page needs major work and really deserves a better overview. However, I feel that some of these fan sites are superior to the official sites in a lot of way and fansites, when they're done with a level of professionalism and respect for the source material, can be far more useful and extensive than any other type. A lot of the links definitely shouldn't be linked from here (or anywhere else for that matter, especially some of the awful 'fanart') or they need new descriptions if they remain. I've added subcategories to better facilitate this change and keeps things organized in the mean time. Bloodofox 19:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, the fan sites should be removed. We should, however, keep links to sites ("fan" or no) that contain valuable information about the games. The Translated Memories site, for example, is a valuable resource. But I'm all for removing 99% of what's there now, and creating a policy to quickly remove such edits in the future. Everybody and their brother has a Silent Hill forums site, and they don't need to be linked to from here. --waka 20:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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All fan sites removed. I think it would be unfair to make an exception for one, as it should be an all or none rule. TotalTommyTerror 17:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Fare or not, I think some of those sites are extremely valuable resources for these games. I'm sure they garner more visitors than any of the official sites. Some of them should definitely stay and be listed.--Bloodofox 02:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Then consider a way to reword their inclusion so it becomesmeaningful, and not just a links list that folks'll put their vanity sites onto.Scix 04:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that we need to either come up with a really explicit policy or cut all of the links. Fighting with people about which links fit and which do not would be hell. One thing we could consider is actually using some of the information from the useful sites in the main article, then linking to them under the References section rather than the External Links section. Then we could blow away all the external links other than the official ones. --waka 14:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that a reference page is a good idea. A lot of the more obscure info here was culled from the major fan sites and they are, indeed, used commonly for reference. --Bloodofox 20:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Unless any of the sites are actual journalistic sites then they don't belong. It would be wrong to include some fan sites just because they have more information and exclude others because they might not be up to par. I wouldn't however be opposed to include a site (fan or official) that included something useful such as published interviews with producers.

We do not however, need to be linking a site just because it has scans of the instruction manual or a more detailed story synopsis. There's plenty of non wiki ways to find that kind of information. And if the game synopses here were more detailed it would eliminate the need for those kind of links. TotalTommyTerror 15:16, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you, but the definition of "actual journalistic site" vs "fan site" is going to get us into trouble (people will argue that their site contains as much authentic journalism as the next, etc), so my suggestion is that we reference sites that actually have obscure information, be they fan sites or no. If the quality of the page can be increased by referencing something on some site (and I agree it's not worth creating a reference link for information that is readily available via google), I don't mind linking to a "fan site." I think we agree that our major goal here is to omit the horrific number of sites with Silent Hill forums and the like. --waka 02:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice touch with the google link, Waka. I hate to see it come to that really, but it's only a matter of time before the fanboys say "Me too." TotalTommyTerror 14:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Japanese spelling

Throughout this article's history some people have deemed it necessary to delete the Japanese spelling of Silent Hill. But as it is after all a Japanese game I think in all fairness it should be present on the site.

Agreed -- though it always looks like (???????) to me. Perhaps if it were mentioned, rather than just inserted as a parenthetical? Scix 23:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep it the way it is now, as it's consistent with the Wikipedia standards. --waka 01:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Created Article Pages For The Games!

I've just created the articles for the four games in the series. Please feel free to edit them! Just to let you know enjoy! Empty2005 04:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Evil vs. An Evil

I re-inserted the references to evil on the Silent Hill page. After re-reading the NPOV guidelines, I don't see any problem. There's a big difference between using "evil" as a moral judgment and using it in reference to a metaphysical or supernatural force in a fictional context. So, for example, including a line in the Hitler article, stating that he was "one of the most evil men in history," would be completely inappropriate (even though many people might agree). But talking about THE evil of Silent Hill--where the term is obviously used to denote a specific power or force--is not a problem. In fact, I think using other terms comes out convoluted and confusing. However, I did leave out the link to the Wikipedia article on "Evil," since it deals with moral evil, not evil as a supernatural force (that link was my fault to begin with; I should have read the article more thoroughly before I linked it).

The problem with this is that by using the term evil you're making a clear judgement from your pint of view about whatever "force" there is. This judgement is left up to the player and is extremely vague - The term is inherently loaded with morality, theological dualism and is an inappropriate descriptor for a neutral article or anything neutral for that matter - There are many other descriptors you can use without such a problem. Term removed. :bloodofox: 03:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"by using the term evil you're making a clear judgement from your pint of view about whatever "force" there is. This judgement is left up to the player and is extremely vague"

Um ... not really, no.

There's a lot in the Silent Hill games that's left to the player's interpretation, but I don't think the underlying nature of the forces operating in the town is one of those things. I don't remember it being explicitly stated in the games, but on the other hand, I've never seen any great, heated debate on the topic either. It seems pretty clear that the force in Silent Hill is "evil" (flayed bodies, monsters tearing people apart, a cult sacrificing little girls to bring their god into the world, a god who, interestingly enough, closely resembles some depictions of Satan--Baphomet, more accurately--but you get the idea). Evil is intentionally written into the story.

We have to distinguish here between discussing real world topics and discussing fictional worlds. They're two different things. Saying the forces in Silent Hill are evil is like saying Darth Vader is evil. Calling Darth Vader evil in an article shows no bias and does not violate neutrality: in the world of Star Wars, this is simply a fact.

Neutrality in an article means that the author does not include his own judgments, opinions, personal values, etc. (or cherry pick his information so that the article supports his biases). He tries to relate the facts with as little bias as possible. An author saying the forces in Silent Hill are "evil" is not "making a clear judgement from [his] point of view." He's simply relating an established fact of this fictional universe. You're right, the word "evil" is "inherently loaded with morality, [and] theological dualism." But this morality and theological dualism was very specifically written into the world of Silent Hill by its designers. (As a matter of fact, I would argue that a discussion of Silent Hill without the concept of evil undercuts the substance of the game.)

To put it another way: Silent Hill itself is not neutral. So let's put the evil back (where it belongs)!  :-)

Silent Hill itself is totally neutral. It is a place of great spiritual presence, but there is nothing whatsoever that suggests that the town itself is evil, or that it has any sort of consciousness or will of its own. All of the wickedness that we see in the games is ultimately perpetrated by people, and can always be traced to specific individuals. People like Dahlia and Claudia and Walter commit atrocities in the interest of reviving God. Never is it insinuated that their God physically or mentally compels them to do any of it. Given that God has proven to be quite fallable in each incarnation, it's hardly a stretch to believe that God is a product of these people, and not the other way around. Even in Silent Hill 2, which does not involve the Order, there is no evidence of a blanket sentience. Silent Hill is merely a place that hosts a very peculiar kind of spiritual energy. It is never activated randomly. Every time we see Silent Hill's surreal side, there is a person responsible for that happening.

There definitely is evil in Silent Hill, but it's the Order that is evil, not the ground they hold sacred.

I agree. This was clearly intentional. I retain my opinion regarding the usage of the term 'evil.' Please keep morality and terms derived from moralism out of neutral articles. :bloodofox: 23:35, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Lungwu: I disagree when you say "there is nothing whatsoever that suggests that the town itself is evil, or that it has any sort of consciousness or will of its own." I think there's quite a bit of evidence for that. However, you make a very good point about the people who tap into the power of Silent Hill. Obviously, the issue of whether or not Silent Hill is "permeated by an ancient evil" or just an "ancient power" is more open to debate than I gave it credit for earlier, so I concede the point.

Bloodofox: I don't disagree with you at all about keeping morality out of neutral articles. What I disagree with--strongly--is the idea that every time an author of an article uses a "term derived from moralism" it automatically indicates moral judgment on his/her part and destroys the article's neutrality. Yes, words such as good and evil do carry moral weight. But neutrality should be judged from context and content, not just the presence of a single word. It's quite possible for an author to use morally weighted words but for his article to be completely neutral--the obvious example being the present one: an author discussing fictional characters and settings (actually, the most obvious example is an article on the topic of "Evil," but let us not descend into the comically facile). You could argue, as Lungwu does above, that the author's interpretation is debatable. But to place that--as you seem to be doing--on the same level as an author calling a real world human being, institution, religion, etc. "evil" is ... well, even more off the mark than comparing apples and oranges. More like comparing apples and skyscrapers.

But, I might have misunderstood you. Let me ask this: would you propose that the word "evil" be removed from articles discussing characters like Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, or the Nazgul and Sauron from the Lord of the Rings? Or was it actually the context in which the word evil was being used in the Silent Hill article that you disagreed with? In other words, you felt in that specific case the author did seem to be making a moral judgment?

Well, to meet it seemed like a descriptive term whereas the creators of this particular piece of fiction have left it pretty neutral either way. Does it bring out a person's inner psyche? Does it reveal their feelings of guilt over a past experience, which they deemed morally wrong? This game sends all sorts of signals. I just think taking the "evil" route in this case is too simplistic. Did the Indians that were there first think of it as "evil?" There's just a lot of ways to approach it.

As for the articles you mention, if the article offered a quote from another character giving such a description or from the author's own description, sure, fine. But making calls like "he's an evil character" or such and such "made him into an evil guy" is far too simplistic to me. :bloodofox: 23:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Good and evil are fabrications made up by man. We all act on nature.

There is no evil in the town outside of what you are. It is more like the powers of heaven, seen through the sinful eyes of human beings.

Silent Hill Collection

I added a parapgraph on the newly released "Silent Hill Collection" under the "Main Series" heading. Is it worthy of it's own page or not? I don't think there is one for it. (This is different from the "Silent Hill Experience", if there's any confusion) - Beast Love (I made the change this morning, I only just signed up for a proper account)

Template/Article Discussion

Personally, I think the template for the Silent Hill series looks rather unprofessional-looking and lacks content. I believe the template should be handled in the exact same way as does the Resident Evil page. Articles, like those listed above, should be listed in the template but the characters should be divided between those from the film and games. Characters, monsters, etc., that have enough imformation to to hold their own deserve their own page, however, those with minor details should be listed within the general list of characters but linked individually from the template. Hopefully everyone will understand what I'm saying. --Unregistered user 11:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

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Kingpin1055 Agreed, people usually look for specific areas to find out the facts and details on characters... it only makes sense that there's a large section for the charatcer bios.

That, and a working template should help improve the page.

I just took a look at the RE one. It's HUGE. I guess it has a larger fan base. Anyway, the SH one seems to be on its way to looking a lot like the RE one. You have to realize though that the SH series doesn't have enough content to match the RE template. I think if that were to happen, more useless pages like The Church would show up it fill it out. Share some of your ideas for it here, I'm interested to see what you have to offer. --Thaddius 00:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Silent Hill: Play Novel

Should there be a seperate section for this, seperate from the Silent Hill (video game) section? --Thaddius 12:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Movie Soundtrack

Does anyone know the name of the song that is played at the begining of the credits of the movie. It is a song that I have played on DDR. In the DDR background video it has a woman walking that looks just like the main character in the movie.

Do you mean the song at the end of the movie? That was the theme song from Silent Hill 3, "You're not here", and the girl featured in the video was the main character from SH3, Heather.

Actually thats only partially true, when the movie is ending it goes outside the house and shows a white claudia bush, the sound that plays is called "Lost Carol", which is from silent hill 3 aswell. I have it on my mp3 player. The song then goes to "You're not here" from silent hill 3.

(forgot timestamp! :P --Rebootedrock 01:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC) )

I not sure about that one but I do know that in one DDR they had the theme song from Silent Hill 4. I think they made it look like Cynthia from Silent Hill 4 was singing the DDR version 12:29 PM NOV. 21 2006

Setting

Okay, why is there a offhand comment about GTA3 in the Silent Hill setting section? It's hardly relevant or even proovable as being related. Unless anyone can see a reason why for it's inclusion I'm gonna take it out. If you can provide a good reason to keep it, do so. -Kingpin1055

Silent Hill:Origins

Does anybody think that this should have its own article? (Fitzblitz 00:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

• But It Already Does! Empty2005 01:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know if this game might come to the playstation 2 after a while its been on the PSP. --Marbus2 5 11:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Depends on sales. I would certanly hope so.. otherwise looks like I will have to buy a psp..--Rebootedrock 01:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

House Of Leaves: Date Validity?

The novel House of Leaves and its use of impossible physical spaces may have been an influence on the series (especially in Silent Hill 2), with its almost interminable corridors.

Was HoL (including the on-line version) present in the same time frame as the production of SH2? If not, wouldn't that invalidate the above quote? Orange & Viridian 00:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a verion that was published in 2000 here. Looks like a re-print too. Since SH2 was 2001... it's valid. Use your discresion. --Thaddius 11:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Samael and Metatron debate PUT TO REST!!!

To the right of this paragraph is an image taken from Silent Hill 1. Harry Mason finds this on the ground of the courtyard in Midwitch Elementary school. Notice the triangle shape within the seal. This is referred to as the Seal of Samael and it seen all over the game.

Below this paragraph is an image, take from Silent Hill 3. Heather is saving her game using the seal of Metatron as outlined in the game. Notice the three circles forming a triangle-looking image.

Ok. So we have two images of two different seals. The first one with its triangle, as mentioned in the game, is the Seal of Samael. The second one with its three circles is, as mentioned in the game, the Seal of Metatron. This will put the end to this debate, both seals are present, therefore one can assume that both supernatural entities are present throughout the series. I will be posting this information on the main page, with the pictures, unless someone beats me to it. Thanks for your time. --Thaddius 00:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As blind as you are, nothing is put to rest. The triangular seal is the Seal of Metatron, the Virun VII crest. The weilder is granted great powers against supernatural forces, light or dark. It is called Metatron due to the amount of power it holds, it has no link to the angel Metatron, as there is no evidence that entity exists in the story any more than Samael does. They're just names assigned to relics. The second crest is the Halo of the Sun. It is seen as three circles(teacup ride) and symbolizes the everlasting cycle of life and rebirth, being the marking of Valtiel, the God of rebirth. It is this reason that Heather gazing upon the seal saves the game...she'll be reborn there if she dies. FACT, GOOD NIGHT.

Thank you for not citing your supposed 'fact'. Please refrain from personal attacks like 'as blind as you are'. Oh and thanks for deleting my removing my pics. Doing so served no purpose at all. --Thaddius 19:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

A translation of the SH1 guidebook from the site : http://silenthillchronicle.net/shkgb.htm

Weilded this:

Q: What is the Mark of Samael?

A: The truth is that there is no profound significance.

Dahlia uses the phrase "the Mark of Samael" while speaking to Harry. This is a sophism to make Harry worry that terrible things are happening that must be stopped at any cost; it's nonsense that falls under the category of wordplay. Dahlia thought she could use Harry to catch Alessa, so she

used incomprehensible terms with feigned sincerity.

Q: What is the Seal of Metatron?

A: It's like a spell of annihilation.

What Alessa was actually creating was the Seal of Metatron. Its name is derived from the name of an angel of release in the Kabbalistic system. Bound by the cult's spell and living in an endless nightmare in agony, Alessa's wish was for a complete death. Since she was unable to die in a normal fashion while under the influence of the power of the malevolent deity, Alessa intended to "annihilate" herself by the power of the Seal of Metatron with the nightmare world at hand. At the moment Cheryl and Alessa united, she gained the power to escape from the cult's spell; at the same time, the technique that brought about the descent of the cult's god succeeded and the malevolent deity resumed its maturation process. This time, Alessa was engaged in a struggle, a race between the malevolent god's maturation and the seal's completion. If the seal were to be completed, Harry, Cybil, Dahlia and the others would all be annihilated along with Alessa. However, as it is questionable whether the Seal of Metatron actually has this sort of power, there is also the possibility that Alessa, using knowledge she acquired when she was very young, freed herself from the effects of the malevolent god's power through autosuggestion and was attempting to realize her own death. Because Dahlia was at least aware of the fact that Alessa had the will to end her own life, she prepared for the worst-case scenario and took steps to prevent this from happening. She used Harry for that very purpose.

-A sentence in the "Key Items" section of the fugue states that in the

Kabbalah, Metatron and Samael originally "shared the same (or shared one) existence." It seems possible that what this refers to is the fact that both Samael and Metatron originally occupied positions on the Tree of Life, and shared the same existence as spheres (sephiroth) that were part of the Tree.

Metatron is also said to carry on a ceaseless battle with Samael.

The Halo of the Sun is the cult's symbol, it has nothing to due with Metatron or Samael. That was explained in the 3rd game.

About the cult's symbol

Represents the deity known as "The Halo of the Sun." In heraldry, symbolizes a religious group.

The two outer circles are charity and resurrection; the three inner circles are present, past, and future.

Usually drawn in red. Occasionally drawn in black or other colors, but blue reverses the meaning into a curse on God and is therefore forbidden.

Then we have one more thing to consider:

About syncretic religions

There is no religion that has remained unchanged from the moment it was founded. This one is no execption.

When this religion fell into the hands of immigrants, it was deeply influenced by their own original Christian beliefs.

For example, the traditional representatives of these primal gods may be given the names and descriptions of Christian angels. This shared characteristics being to appear.

(There is also one rare example of the chief deity, "Creator of Paradise" or "Lord of Serpents and Reeds", being dubbed with a demon's name. Of course, this was not done by believers, but by their opponents.)

Dahlia is said in one passage:

The religious cult to which Dahlia belongs, as previously mentioned, possesses an original

structure that is wholly separate from any religious doctrine that exists in reality, although in some cases its concepts and terms were appropriated from other religious terminology for the sake of convenience. This is because of its "new religion" aspect, which came about as the cult's doctrine was systematized through the process of researching theology and demonology. Aglaophotis is a term from the Kabbalah that means something like "amulet." Dahlia and the others were using it to mean something that impedes the malevolent deity (what they call God). This is because they consider the roots of demons, as they are called in conventional religions, to be not far removed

from those of the god of the land in which they believe.

Simply put, the "god" inside of Alessa is a demon. Rather it's name is "Samael" is up to debate. (Thus the reason Alessa is using the Seal. The seal is said to have little signafince or importance to most of the cult however, and rarely if ever is used.) Dahlia believes that the demon is the God. She sees no diffrence.(This almost [to some degree] mimics some modern conceptions about the demon Lilith) Hence why the red liquid thrown by Kauffman at the end of the game works!

Xuchilbara 01:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Francis Bacon?

Somebody (User:80.54.250.217) recently added a note about Francis Bacon's "Painting 1978" in relation to Silent Hill 2. For reference, the painting is here:

http://www.francis-bacon.cx/figures/1978.html

Do we have a reference for this relationship? Pending one I've removed the note. --waka 22:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Francis Bacon was mentioned in The Making of Silent Hill 2, but apart from that I don't see any similarities in the painting. Fitzblitz 07:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I once read the painting was used for the design of a room in "Silent Hill 2". Maybe if someone asked on a SH forum you might get a better answer.

Monster Party

It was suggested in the article that Monster Party(NES) is a possible influence, because of the good/evil scenery shift and mutant dogs. I think that's a bit of a stretch, given Monster Party's cartoony style -- it's hard to see how any 8-bit game could create a disturbing atmosphere like Silent Hill. So I think the reference to Monster Party should be removed from the article. Judge for yourself:

I agree, it seems like a real stretch. I'm removing the trivia entry. NighTrekr 20:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed criticism of comics

In general, the comic books by Ciencin are considered dull by fans because of poorly written stories, short length, uninteresting characters, muddled artwork, excessive and inappropriate action scenes as well as excessive use of profanity.

I removed the preceding sentence because not only did it need a citation, it's a slight example of using "weasel words". It was more of a critique than anything else. If an actual citation can be found for it saying much the same thing then feel free to put it back in. Levid37 00:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Setting

Do we seriously need seven paragraphs of fanwankery about where exactly the fictional town of Silent Hill could be located in the real world? As an interested outsider I want to learn about the game(s), not get bogged down in pointless details like this. Spin off a location of Silent Hill article if you must, or summarize the whole thing and move the excruciating details to somewhere below. Sheesh. 82.92.119.11 19:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. The page has transformed from a concise summarization of pertinent details about the game into a mammoth collection of trivia and speculation. The argument about the nature of the seal (Metatron? Sameal? who cares!?) is a perfect example: this information is not a very relevant aspect of the game, and the article is cluttered with that level of information. --waka 21:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed... unless anyone has any object, I'll go remove that section now as part of cleanup.Kingpin1055 21:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Silent Hill 2 film section

I've done some cleanup on the section about the second SH film, but it's really vague. I would have deleted it entirely, as it's lacking any real information, but I know people will come looking for it anyway.

Also, I tagged the statement about Neil Gaiman being involved, but I have a feeling that should just be deleted. It was a rumor to start with, and the man himself has said it's not true. -- Kesh 02:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Updated Lost Memories DVD reference

The entry incorrectly stated the DVD was released in New York. I also noted that the Lost Memories DVD contains content from The Art of Silent Hill as well -- I feel this is worth noting as the DVDs do have duplicate content, and anyone interested in purchasing them would want to know before hand, given how expensive they have become on the collectors market. ---- DonsSword Jan 2, 2007 8:32 AM EST