Talk:Sludge metal/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Tired Of Waiting

If no more discussion has taken place by the 31st of March 2007 I shall begin re-writing this page to my own accord.

Also for those so called Atmospheric Sludge Bands I will begin a Post-Core page.

--Lysergix 00:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your decision and support you, but to me it seems the prevailing term is "post-metal" as opposed to "post-core" Dysfunktion 19:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh ofcourse. However is it not alittle wrong to allow these Hardcore bands to be viewed as Metal by the public?

--Lysergix 09:31, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

it's way too pussy to be either, does it really matter? :P Dysfunktion 17:27, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

why are grief, noothgrush, and dystopia only barely mentioned? and where the fuck is damad? how is corrupted not a traditional sludge band, were they not one of the originators?

Godflesh

I wonder, why Goflesh is not in the list or not even mentioned? As they are industrial pioneers, their music is cross between and doom metal and hardcore too. For example, listen to their, early stuff, to strart, cose, it is very sludgy, especially, by the riffs and vocals. And GF has, also claimed as, seminal influence, in sludge metal genre, and especially bands, such as Neurosis, Isis, Cult of Luna, Eyehategods. Any, ideologies?

It's possible that none of the editors have heard of the band. Personally, I've never heard of them, and I love Sludge, but I'm still pretty new to the genre. If you feel that they belong in the list, you should add them where you see fit. Worst comes to worst, somebody else may have some solid reasoning as to why they don't belong in the list, and they will share that info and just get rid of your additions. --Wardrich (talk) 06:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

If hardcore, why the Metal tag?

I don´t know why everytime it´s used the metal tag for every new hard genre. It has been said the origins of sludge is hardcore so why it´s no called sludgecore instead? This so called sludge metal sucks and don´t deserves to be called metal anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.67.247.12 (talk) 14:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Hardcore with Doom Metal (see Black Sabbath). The two therms are correct (Sludgecore or Sludge Metal) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.116.185 (talk) 21:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not hardcore, but it has hardcore influences. It's definitely a metal sub genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.176.236 (talk) 02:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sepultura are not sludge

I'm removing the references to Sepultura from the article. They are not sludge metal. They began as a thrash band, and turned into new metal in the 90's. They were never a sludge/stoner/doom band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.176.236 (talk) 02:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Not Nu Metal, friend, but Groove Metal. There is a big difference. Although I agree, they never were a Sludge band. They were influenced by it, but they never were sludge. 68.18.173.241 (talk) 11:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyway thats all crap

Some comments about genres and Hardcore

I cant remember the existence of the genres "sludge metal" or"crust metal" back when Black Flag existed. In my opinion, all these hundrets of genres are for a shit anyway. And im sure you can have discussions forever about if Neurosis is Hardcore or not (but i agree with Lysergix's opinion about that).

Hi there. I think one problem with music is the fact that there really are probably like 5-10 genres, then from there you get like thousands of subgenres, and then from there you run into subsets of subgenres. What's starting to happen is people are coining terms for already existing genres, or are just putting bands in genres that they have heard of, but may in fact belong in a more appropriate genre that they probably haven't heard of... if you know what I mean. I think music genres in general need a total overhaul. --Wardrich (talk) 06:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

While I see where you guys are coming from, I have to say, there are varying differences between subgenres. I mean, I do understand where you guys are coming from, but at the same time... its hard to not group things together to try to organize it. (and in the end, causing a clusterfuck, lol) but still... my two cents on it: You have band A. Band A influences band B. Band A and Band B tour together, inspire some kids, the kids start a scene, and all fall in the same stylings and trappings of that style, boom, genre is born, then you have 200 different bands all playing a simular style... but clique A doesn't get along with clique B - they have different styles even though their parent roots are the same (e.g. death metal/black metal) a lot of the cliques within death metal and black metal don't get along.... why, I don't know. But there are differences between the two. Same goes for hardcore, sludgecore, blah blah blah, the list goes on and on and on, but the point is this: genres start because some certain musician deviates slightly away from the parent root and inspires other musicians to follow in that style. Its just the way it works, and whatever genre it is doesn't always fit alongside its relative genres (e.g. power metal & death metal)

But thats just my two cents on it. 68.18.173.241 (talk) 11:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

metalcore?

can sludge be considered to be metalcore? it's metal + hardcore =)--Sheish 6 Sheish (talk) 03:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

not at all ! Sludge is Doom + Southern (or stoner).--Senpaiottolo (talk) 18:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think the Southern rock element is essential, though this still needs to be talked out. The distinction from metalcore (and perhaps this should be indicated on the metalcore or sludge pages) is that, while both draw on hardcore and metal, metalcore is formed from a combination of youth crew or New York hardcore that emphasizes speed and breakdowns, and thrash metal. Sludge, contrariwise, is an amalgamation of West Coast hardcore, crust punk, or noise rock, with doom metal. The short way of putting this is that metalcore generally has fast tempos whereas sludge is always slow. There are, however, groups that draw on both metalcore and sludge, Mastodon being probably the most famous example. There's also a relationship between sludge and grindcore, which I'm struggling to articulate (Scott Hull from Pig Destroyer cites the Melvins as a major influence, for example, and A.C. and Eyehategod are pals). Aryder779 (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't the doom + southern rock = stoner? now that i think it, crossover thrash is also different from metalcore, so not every metal + hardcore = metalcore, right? anyway, thank you for correcting me... and yeah you should clear it on the article --Sheish 6 Sheish 01:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheish (talk • contribs)

Merge proposal

I've thought that the "Sludge metal bands by style" section should be removed from the article and put into a new article named List of sludge metal bands. No other music genre article has such a long band list in it and there are more sludge metal bands to come; this is not like grunge, which "died" and there haven't been any new "grunge" bands since then. Gothbag (talk) 15:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable as there are many lists for the different genres. Most recently industrial metal has one and sludge metal seems to be the only one left. FireCrystal (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Namedropping?

Adding bands to a list isn't namedropping as far as I'm concerned, unless there's another reasoning behind this that I'm unaware of. FireCrystal (talk) 23:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

We need a complete overhaul of the Sludge Metal section.

I'll just go along discrediting a long list of "Sludge Metal" bands to get the ball rolling. You must be aware that when the term Sludge is used it is used as a NOUN not a ADJECTIVE. Otherwise anything with a Sludgey Down-Tuned Guitar Tone should get put in.

Down; They sound basically like Black Sabbath apart from other general Metal influence. More shockingly there is no hardcore influence at all. The only thing that springs to mind that could maybe make them Sludge is suggesting the vocals make it Sludge. However that assumption is highly basic. Mainly for the fact when he screams they resemble Black Metal vocals more so of which it is very apparent Phil was/is a fan of at the time of recording the first album.

Corrosion Of Conformity; They are basically Black Sabbath with Southern Touches.. and maybe sometimes a little Thrash influence. But never Hardcore.

Beaten Back To Pure, Alabama Thunderpussy; Where is the hardcore? It's just purely Southern Metal

Electric Wizard; It amuses me they where cited as a Sludge Metal band. Let Us Prey I would argee on however it is all pure Black Sabbath tribute.

Baroness; Melodic Death Metal and Crust Punk.. = Sludge???

Boris; Black Sabbath and MC5, yes. Hardcore? No. The only example I can find of any music they have been involved in with hardcore influence was on one of their recent LP’s and even then it was pure Crust Punk and so irrelevant.

Also a lot of bands who are basically Celtic Frost rip-offs somehow find themselves under the Sludge banner (eg. Coffins and Lair Of The Minotaur). These should be clearly removed. Also the claim of Southern Sludgecore being an actual genre is ludicrous, a scene does not become a sound. Cause something like Dixie Witch sounds so much alike too Buzzov*en.

Things which should be kept in the list as being real Sludge Metal bands; Acid Bath, Black Flag (Should be pointed out to be proto as Melvins where), Bongzilla, Brainoil, Buzzoven, Cable, Cavity, Melvins, Charger, Crowbar, EyeHateGod, Iron Monkey, Laudanum, Mistress, Soilent Green, Rwake, Weedeater. You are welcome to make additions.

Also, the whole creation of the Atmospheric Sludge Metal is wishful thinking. This whole school of bands who ripped off Neurosis and Godflesh are not Metal at all. Or if so are because they only show slight influence from this scene (Burst, Buried Inside). To be begin we need to first need to all accept that both founding artists came from “Core” backgrounds and arrived at their sound without influence from Metal. Before claims of “Guitar Tone” get posted you should be aware and hopefully accept the fact that “Heavy” music exists and sometimes it isn’t actually Metal. They have cited their influences many times in fact never implying any Metal let alone Doom but rather experimental music and industrial. Lately post-rock has become a even more prominent part of this school of post-hardcore bands. Not alone that but the big players in the school of bands who did in fact rip them off also had core backgrounds.

Cult Of Luna’s previous incarnation was a hardcore band.

Isis used to be hardcore and their songwriter runs a hardcore label.

Neurosis used to be hardcore.

Callisto fashion themselves as hardcore and infact share a lyrical theme of Christianity which is very prominent in a number of hardcore bands.

Buried Inside call themselves a hardcore band.

Pelican members (apart from one) were all involved in “core”.

If people are happy with the statements made and agree with my thoughts I would be happy to re-write the Sludge Metal page comprehensively.

--Lysergix 13:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I was actually surprised that Cavity wasn't originally added to the list of bands, since their sound is *VERY* close to that of Eyehategod. Also, I'm not sure what's up with Isis, maybe it was the Hydrahead records thing, but they're somehow classified as Sludge. As you have mentioned, I've noticed that a LOT of "southern metal" bands end up classified as Sludge. Sure Jimmy Bower's in EHG and Down, but I wouldn't consider Down to be sludge. (btw: I did a bit of spell-checking and format fixing on your talk bit there.) --Wardrich (talk) 06:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with you Lysergix. Phil Anselmo has influences from both hardcore and black metal in his vocals. My point being - many of the bands you name, most of them southern bands, do have hardcore influence. Corrosion of Conformity started out as a hardcore band, and evolved into a crossover thrash band, but always had a slower tempo than thrash. Many of these southern metal bands border-line between hardcore, sludge, thrash, and groove metal, because basically "southern" style metal is an amalgamation of those genres. Many southern bands however take a slower tempo approach ( influenced by doom metal and hardcore) - But anyway, I'm from North Carolina myself, and yes, Corrosion of Conformity originally was a hardcore band. They evolved into what they sound like today, and I guess its best described as sludge, because it isn't "thrashy" enough to be considered groove, which is more of a medium tempo) I'd say sludge is more between 60 - 90 beats per minute, akin to its doom metal roots, whereas groove ranges anywhere from 90 to 175 beats per minute (average medium tempo) - and thrash generally speaking ranges anywhere from 175 beats per minute and higher tempos. Just my two cents -

68.18.173.241 (talk) 11:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey there. Just putting my two cents in, i think that some of these users are strongly biased against so-called "post-metal" aka "atmospheric sludge metal" on this page as it's called. i myself listen to a fair amount of it, i just want to set the record straight, ISIS is sludge metal plain and simple, whether they are now is open to discussion but their early stuff (mosquito control, the red sea, although celestial may be pushing it...) is sludge metal. Its kind of hardcore-sounding, yes, but isn't the hardcore part of -what makes sludge sludge? Of course, Cult of Luna is very much a hardcore-ish band with little to no sludge influence, callisto is as much metalcore influenced as sludge-influenced, maybe even more so. So long story short post-metal is influenced by the sludge metal to an extent, not all post-metal is sludge but some of it can be considered. I'm not an expert but that's just my two cents

And moving on, in spite of my bias in favor of post-metal to counterbalance your bias against post-metal, i strongly agree that the "atmospheric sludge metal" be removed. although i find your comments that post-metal bands are neurosis and godflesh ripoffs unjustified, i must agree. Some post-metal bands are sludge or more like sludge-influenced, but NOT ALL are sludge. Also, we should remove the southern sludge and stoner sludge parts and join it into one big happy sludge family. For all the claims being heaped on post-metal fans being elitist or whatever, this whole page is infected by the work of elitists who always have to sub-sub-sub-genre everything. Metal is subgenre of rock. Sludge metal is subgenre of metal. sludgecore, southern sludge, stoner sludge, they are all styles. they don't neccessitate their own pages or even subdivisions. Lets just be one big happy sludge family ok? all the subgenrization is driving me crazy.

Ok so now that i'm done ranting im in agreement to overhaul the page. Group all the bands together, but remove the atmospheric sludge metal group, place ISIS (with reference to earlier work) as well as any other post-metal bands seen fit, though i can't think of too many others at the moment. Also the mess at the bottom of the page, any bands that have sludge enough in the mix stay on the page, those that don't get kicked off. Hope it works out. PeaceAThousandGooglyEyeballs (talk) 19:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Melvins

I'm not too sure about that Melvins statement I just made, but I've heard from others that they're an early sludge band or something. - Dysfunktion 00:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, it could be argued that they have been somewhat influential on the genre. But I don't think Boris, Isis and Sleep really fit here. Boris and Isis are too "artsy" to be considered sludge; Sleep are arguably plain stoner metal. I'm getting doubts about Mastodon too, now that I think about it. Maybe I'm just too nitpicky, though. --Rueckk 20:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Rueckk, Mastodon may be has some influences but sure is not an sludge band.

I've heard a few Isis songs, and although they don't really sound like sludge, they are somehow classified as sludge. Wardrich (talk) 05:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The classification of Isis as sludge metal is mostly due to their early material, such as Celestial and the Red Sea. That stuff does sound a lot like Eyehategod. 98.14.253.203 (talk) 00:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

in agreement with the "overhaul"

The first part of this article seems to venture too far off topic for my liking. A lot of the information has absolutely no bearing on musical/structural content and focus's on subjective semantics (ie. labels, genres.) There are also no references to factual information (such as release dates.) The whole thing needs to be reworked and cleaned up so that it remains objective. If others are interested in a collaborative effort, i would be willing to assist. Other suggestions are welcome.

Cryptomnesiac 02:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a real sense these people got caught along in the whole Southern Lord/Hydra-Head wave of followers and have become “experts” at this themselves.Again I have to really solicit my feelings towards "Atmospheric Sludge Metal" being totally vacant. If you consider this term has only recently coined with the new school of bands appearing from the very late 90’s and early 00’s which musically infact grew totally separate from what they would refer to as Traditional Sludge Metal (or even metal atall), It is like saying a banana fell from the apple tree. Sure they might both be fruit but they are hardly the same

Also may I quote, “but sludge metal generally avoids the positive outlook on life that is common in stoner metal, and is usually far more atmospheric.” What Trad Sludge Metal bands do you know who are atmospheric? And letting a guitar feedback for 8 minutes doesn’t count as atmosphere.

I would be willing to participate in a collaborative effort, aslong as it was agreed that the artists mentioned should be removed along with some others. The whole bunch of Celtic Frost/Neurosis/Godflesh rip-off bands. Having this article the way it is will only inspire ignorance. And a bunch of kids to thinking Isis is sludge metal or even metal!

You can contact me via MSN/E-Mail from the address shown on my page.

--Lysergix 14:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

WTF??? The Allmusic quote which is used on the article cites both The Melvins and Soundgarden as influence on Sludge. Why erase the latter and keep the former? To me, The Melvins, although a big influence on Sludge, was a Grunge band or at least belonged to that scene --Rivet138 (talk) 18:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Rivet138.

"Sludgy"

Just a head's up... I'm going to go through the list and remove anything unsoured per WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Note that some of their riffs being described as "sludgy" is not the same as saying that a band plays within the genre "sludge metal". Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Isis

Influenced by post-metal and sludge? So it's influenced by ambient or atmospheric sludge metal and sludge metal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.36.110 (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Alice In Chains - Sludge?

What's the reasoning behind this? I don't see it. 77.101.47.254 (talk) 15:52, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

16 is an East Coast Band?

Not according to their Wikipedia Page. Looks like they were formed in CA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.13.138.133 (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Melvins or Eyehategod - essence of sludge

Ok, we really need to get this straight as to who invented the genre, the Melvins or Eyehategod. Somebody here seems awfully confident that Southern sludge from NOLA is the origin (if not the be-all and end-all) of the scene, but if sludge is just doom+hardcore, than the Melvins invented it, and there are important contributions from groups like the Swans, Grief, and Godflesh. If sludge is defined by the addition of the Southern rock influence, than I guess it started in New Orleans, but we need some sources establishing that sludge = doom+hardcore+Southern rock. Aryder779 (talk) 16:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Southern rock is not sourced in the article. Melvins are sludge, Melvins do not always borrow from Southern rock, therefore Southern rock is a a prominent influence (sometimes) not an origin. Aryder779 (talk) 23:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Who "invented" the genre is irrelevant. COC, Down, Eyehategod, Crowbar etc all formed the genre, and there is a prominent southern rock influence in every one of those bands. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 00:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

What about Grief, who are clearly a seminal sludge group and who have no discernible Southern rock influence? Aryder779 (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If I can be bothered pulling together some interviews as references I can fix this. The Melvins are openly acknowledged by EHG are being a influence on their sound- if you listen to Gluey Porch Treatments (1988- the year EHG formed) it's pretty obvious that the Melvins influenced EHG. In addition to My War/Slip It In era-Black Flag & The Melvins other 'slow punk' bands like Flipper, Die Kreuzen & early Swans were big influences on EHG & sludge in general...in a lot of ways the whole Black Sabbath thing is a bit overstated, Sludge is more a product of the NOLA crossover scene- that's where they came from & it was the mixture of punk and metal that paved the way for EHG to be who they are. You can see a video of their first gig at the NOLA jazzville concert hall in 1989 on Youtube- their sound was pretty much fully formed in '89, Take As Needed For Pain simply took it to the next level musically. You can also see footage of Mike Williams other band Crawlspace playing in '89 also at Jazzville- Crawlspace were a pretty straightforward crossover/thrash band, though they did play one slower, more sludgey number...you've got to remember the context of the very late '80s-early '90s- what the scene was like, what was available and what people were actually listening to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.176.26 (talk) 00:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Sludgecore?

I haven't seen this term generally being associated with the bands. Critics and fans alike prefer to use 'sludge metal' and 'sludge' to describe the band as stated in the article body already. Just because a few Allmusic articles like Crowbar and Eyehategod have this term mentioned once does that mean the term is actually valid or can be included in the lead here? Allmusic's verifiability has been also questionable over the years. The user Vasil' seems to have a personal vendetta in favour of including it in the article body. Opinions? --Shallowmead077 (talk) 07:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

My sources are Allmusic articles about:

All are key artist of genre. So I doubt that Allmusic made mistake in this articles. Also books know "sludge core", see

Vasiľ (talk) 08:26, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I can see those. But honestly have you seen fans using sludgecore to describe a band rather than sludge metal and sludge. Both of the latter terms are much widely recognized and frequently attached to bands. I believe some critics who use the sludgecore term want to emphasize the hardcore punk roots more than doom metal. --Shallowmead077 (talk) 11:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I just want to show, that sludgecore is used as synonym, thats all. I think that I can add it to article. What is your opinion? Vasiľ (talk) 13:43, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really that familiar with the subject to know the difference, or how prolific the phrase "sludgecore" is. While it should be taken with a pinch of salt "sludge metal" has about 1.5 million Google search results to "sludgecore"'s 50k or so. Яehevkor ✉ 18:24, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Number of pages in google is irrelevant for encyclopedia. Articles on Allmusic and two encyclopedia of heavy music use term sludgecore. By the way redirect from sludgecore exist, so why ist problem write it in the article? Vasiľ (talk) 18:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Grunge rock redirects to grunge. Drone rock redirects to drone. Doom rock redirects to doom metal. Simply because those labels are attached to a particular phrase. There are better things to do on wikipedia than these frivolities. Wait till a consensus is achieved. --Shallowmead077 (talk) 18:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It's not entirely irrelevant (see WP:GOOGLETEST), it gives a good indication of prevalence of a term. Comparing the two the use of sludgecore is almost insignificant. Does that warrant a being given prominence? I should be clear that I'm not really betting on either side here. Яehevkor ✉ 18:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

So cite better source for synonyms or explain why are The Encyclopedia of Heavy Metal and New Wave of American Heavy Metal wrong. Vasiľ (talk) 18:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

My apologies, you misunderstand me, I never said it was wrong, that was not the point I was trying to make. Anyhoo, as I said, I'm not that familiar with the subject there's really no more I can bring to this discussion. Яehevkor ✉ 19:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Erm, did we ever have a consensus on this? I didn't think we did.. Яehevkor ✉ 15:30, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Southern Influence

Isn't Southern Rock A Influence on Sludge Metal? 54.224.30.43 (talk) 19:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC) see Doom Metal 74.104.22.114 (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Grunge is a stylistic origin of Sludge?????????

Okay, really, Grunge came AFTER Sludge. I will take Grunge out of the stylistic origins and add it to "other topics" because it does deserve some mention. TheElderFox (talk) 22:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Grunge...what?

Why is grunge mentioned so much in this article, especially as an influence (or component) to sludge? That's bullshit. Grunge came AFTER sludge and never influenced sludge. It's the other way around. Grunge rock was greatly influenced by sludge (among other things). Grunge had almost no impact on sludge. Also, I don't really understand why southern rock is mentioned in the way it is. Is it true that SOME sludge bands are influenced by and have elements of southern rock? Yes. But not all sludge bands do. In fact only some sludge bands even have any southern rock sound to them. The majority of sludge bands have ZERO southern rock in their sound. 67.187.244.150 (talk) 04:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Grunge is related to sludge , many grunge and proto-grunge bands have essential influence on sludge metal , not only The Melvins and Alice In Chains , but a lot of underground bands from Northwest of E.U.A,Australia, and from some European Countries , sludge metal reinvented a alternative to make a noisy dirty sound , sludge metal is the new grunge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.191.107 (talk) 12:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

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