Talk:Smudging

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Indigenous peoples of North America

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Monolithic "Native American" origin[edit]

I made a comment at a dinner last night that I thought smudge sticks originated in the Southern Cult, but realized I actually didn't know and went to research it. Looking over the article and references, the origins are described as a sort of monolithic "Native American" that doesn't actually exist. There are a few references to the Lumbee, whose unclear origins don't really help the problem. Are there any scholars who can clarify, or were the specific ceremonial complex origins lost in the post-colonial syncretism of Indian religion? Mr. G. Williams (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article title - practice or object[edit]

It seems to me that this article is or should be about the practice of smudging. However, the title and lead indicate that this an article about the smudge stick which is used in this practice. I suggest we rename the article "Smudging" and rewrite the lead accordingly. Daask (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support rename and move to Smudging. That would address the problem that most people don't even use the term "smudge stick", and that this shouldn't have been called such in the first place. This article has resulted in the spread of this weird term. Yeah, let's move it. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 18:56, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As with most things, it's a bit more complicated than that. The use of the term "smudge stick" seems to predate the article and it is used by some Native Americans. However, it's also a bit moot since the focus of the article really is more on smudging as opposed to the ritual tools themselves. Darkstar949 (talk) 01:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:22, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's a "rite" but connected to "rights"[edit]

The "rights" part of this matter as well, as the sources support. Stop removing the templates, IP. Also, the portal is badly-formatted and insufficient for covering these issues. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:17, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't Common Sage native to Europe?[edit]

Article mentions white sage and common sage - white sage is native to North America, but salvia offinalis is "Old World sage", native to Europe. I guess modern Native Americans could use common sage today in their rituals, but it's not "traditional". Gymnophoria (talk) 21:55, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is this really just a native American thing?[edit]

Saining with smoke is a Scottish tradition where an incense bundle made from juniper branches and needles was burned indoors for cleansing and medicinal purposes for treating sickness. The word "smudge" is an English word for "incense bundle." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:580:49DE:0:0:0:112 (talk) 20:33, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The smoke of burning juniper is also used for spiritual cleansing in Nepal, where it plays a key part in puja ceremonies such as those held before attempts to climb Mount Everest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:580:49DE:0:0:0:112 (talk) 20:42, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Smudging of Frankincense is an ancient tradition of Catholic and Jewish Rituals. Or does the burning of Frankincense have a different name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.203.148 (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a forum however I'll answer your question anyway. The act is called censing and more information can be found in the thurible article. They are not the same thing. Indigenous girl (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pointers to other practices involving smoke[edit]

This addresses the above point to a certain extent, but the use of smoke in ritual ceremonies is actually quite common. I've added some links to other articles in the lead since a reader may be confused by the more common and appropriated term smudging. The article should also be clear about the fact that the act of using smoke in a ritual manner has not been appropriated and has been around for a very long time. It's not germaine to the article so an elaborate history of the ritual use of smoke is not needed, but editors should be careful about implying that all use of smoke is appropriated from Native American practices. --Darkstar949 (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm feeling some issues with this as well. The term "smudge" doesn't exclusively refer to a Native American practice (technically it just means smoke) however it is listed by the OED as chiefly American dialect -- consequently, this makes some problems with other cultures that might have an identical or nearly identical practice but which didn't receive the translation "smudge" and instead are called smoke rituals, incense rituals, etc. I am wondering if this article or parts of it ought to be merged with something like religious use of incense.--Sobekneferu (talk) 10:23, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's really not a lot to the article after the recent edits, I would support a merge with religious use of incense. Darkstar949 (talk) 05:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Topic and Neutrality[edit]

The article name is simply "smudging" and not "appropriation of smudging" yet that is presently all the article talks about. It also neglects actually talking about any cultures but the Native American cultures. It makes statements like "The rite of smudging has been appropriated by others outside of the Indigenous community as part of New Age or commercial practices" that assume, first of all, that smudging is necessarily a rite or ritual, which it is not always regarded as, and also that it is of Native American origin which no information in the article or sources actually argues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C3:8001:3940:D42F:9F93:EE03:73EB (talk) 21:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In older literature the term "smudge" or "smudge stick" often refers to a fumigation used as a bug repellant. If the article is specifically about Native American smudge rituals it should be retitled to reflect this, and possibly a disambiguation option offered. --Sobekneferu (talk) 06:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've done about as much as I can to improve the neutrality of the article. At this point the only NPOV objection left that I can see is the "other cultures" section with very little information about any of them (favoring information about one culture's use of smudge can be a biased viewpoint by itself.) I don't really have the right kind of library to add much more to that section from verifiable sources, I have to rely on some outside help.--Sobekneferu (talk) 22:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Older" than what? Not older on this continent. "Smudging" may be the English translation, but this article is about the Native American ceremony, not bug repellent, etc. I don't know where that stuff belongs, but not here. Maybe in fumigation or articles about the herbs themselves. A coincidence in wording calls for disambiguation, not converting this article to a different topic. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:47, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Native American name(s) for Smudging[edit]

As smudging is an English word which has been re-purposed to describe a Native American cultural practice (or several such outwardly similar practices); is there any information regarding a name or names in Native American languages for smudging, so that the practice may be referenced in non-Native contexts without incurring accusations of "cultural [mis]appropriation"? Nuttyskin (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. The names are various in different languages. As such, you can't really use any of them without giving one language undue weight over another. The weight of English is however due, as that is the language of the article. 157.181.131.61 (talk) 08:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, if verifiable reliable sources provide and discuss a name I believe we should at least have the discussion. Not saying it should automatically be included or take the place of the English term in the article but it shouldn't automatically be dismissed either. --ARose Wolf 11:41, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]