Talk:Solidarity Forever

Historical Context

"Although that sounds a lot like the industrial unionism developed by the Congress of Industrial Organizations, the IWW would oppose John L. Lewis' campaign to split from the American Federation of Labor and organize industrial unions in the 1930s." The IWW wasn't much of anything by the 1930s. Maybe *Chaplin* disproved of the CIO (I don't have his book handy and can't vouch for this), but it's a stretch to apply this to the whole of a movement that was crushed, and had many members deported, (and actually never had much of a stable base to begin with) etc., is misleading. If this is included to segway into Chaplain's dissatisfaction with the song's adoption by the economistic post-War unions, then it's not necessary: Just cut it and go straight to the next paragraph.

Catholicism?

My understanding is that Chaplin had been raised protestant, that he had encountered both Mennonite protestants and Catholics in prison, and that he had re-converted to protestantism. Jacob Haller 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

On your question of the reference for Chaplin's return to the Catholic Church, I will make an effort to obtain his actual article itself (and not just the reference to it) from the Denver Post of Feb. 1957 to see whether it does indeed state what I have asserted. If it does, I'll change the reference directly to that. If it doesn't, and I can't find a credible reference, I'll remove the comment. Dwalls 02:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Chaplin may well have joined the Catholic Church. I doubt, however, that he "returned to" it. The main Ralph Chaplin article doesn't say anything about his religious beliefs, and he was definitely Christian even if I'm not sure which denomination, in his later life, so we might add the material over there as well as over here. Jacob Haller 04:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I've received a copy of the Denver Post magazine articles from the Washington State Historical Society. Although elliptical, it strongly implies Chaplin became a Catholic. His story is described as one of, quoting Chaplin, "a violent atheist turned Christian the hard way." Chaplin writes, "I found myself remembering the Catholic chapel at Leavenworth and the inmates who devoutly raised their eyes to my portrait of 'Fellow Worker Jesus.' . . .Here was the instrument of true solidarity, the real clue to Man's salvation, and the best weapon against totalitarianism." There is no suggestion he was a Catholic when younger, so I withdraw the "returned to." Dwalls 17:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It's original research to take this too far. If he didn't explicitly state that he became a Catholic, not merely a Christian, than neither should we. I've gone from Baptist to Quaker without any High Church stops in between; doesn't stop me from considering myself to be in the Presence when at a Catholic mass. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if I had gone to read his unpublished personal letters or found his late unpublished autobiographical ms. in some archive to verify what Wobbly scholars "know" about Chaplin. That's why I stopped with the published Denver Post articles; however obscure they may be, they are still secondary sources and not original research. Dwalls (talk) 19:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Certainly we're on the same page. All I was saying was that if the Denver article didn't explicitly say that he'd become a Catholic, then neither should we. If he did say so, that's certainly fine (and darned good research into solid secondary sources, too). --Orange Mike | Talk 20:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I finally ran across a reference in print that Chaplin "converted to Roman Catholicism," in John R. Salter, Jr., "Chaplin, Ralph H. (1887-1961)," Encyclopedia of the American Left (New York: Garland Publishing, 1990), p. 127. Dwalls (talk) 18:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I see this hasn't been addressed either. Again, I agree with Orangemike. This is original research, meaning that is an editor's own original conclusion that he made on the basis of the facts in the source, and that the conclusion is not obvious to the point of being automatic. More importantly, the relevance of his Catholicism to his criticism of the trade unions's use of the song is not obvious or sourced either: you can be a Catholic and yet a syndicalist. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a Catholic could be a syndicalist. More to the point is that Chaplin's Catholicism reinforced his anticommunism and thus his criticism of the CIO's industrial unionism. Dwalls (talk) 23:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, strictly speaking, one would need to source the claims that: 1. Chaplin's Christianity did reinforce his anticommunism; 2. Chaplin's anticommunism did reinforce his 1968 criticism of unnamed institutionalized, business-like trade-unions (yeah, something makes me think that this might include the AFL-CIO :)). The first thing seems probable, but that is not enough - it is not logically necessary (he could have been enough of an anticommunist even before his re-conversion, or his Christianity and his anticommunism could have developed separately and for entirely separate reasons). The second thing is even less clear - the AFL-CIO was far from being a Communist organization, even in 1968, and I see nothing particularly anticommunistic in Chaplin's criticism cited in the article; quite the opposite, he seems to be chastizing the trade unions for having become too "fat" and part of "The System", so this specific criticism seems to concern the "AFL aspect" of AFL-CIO more than the "CIO aspect". After all, that's what one would expect from a wobbly, too. (Of course, one may always argue that American Capitalism and State Communism are essentially the same thing from a Libertarian Socialist's point of view, so criticizing one automatically means criticizing the other. But this logic is, to put it mildly, not as self-evident to most people as to need no sourcing). --91.148.159.4 (talk) 14:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Labor theory of value?

The stanza "all that is owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone, we have laid the wide foundations..." doesn't embody the LTV in the economic sense, but uses Locke's justification for property (sometimes called the labor theory of property) to counter the capitalists' property claims, presumably on behalf of Lockeanism, use-possession, or another such system. Jacob Haller 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I take your point about the labor theory of property, however I think it is too narrow a concept to cover the claims of the IWW Preamble, and certainly an obscure concept. The labor theory of value is, in my opinion, more the ethical underpinning of the IWW's claim that "all the world that is owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone." And the labor theory of value is usually understood in a broader sense (by those who still take it seriously, in the face of mainstream economics' marginal utility theory). Dwalls 02:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the LTP as described in the page is too narrow. However, the LTV is a theory of economics (usually about commodity prices) while the LTP is a theory about rights and/or justice, as is that part of the song.

In my reading, "All that is owned..." challenges the legitimacy of capitalist property-claims on more-or-less Lockean lines; "They have taken untold millions..." introduces the theory of exploitation, and it and the following stanza explore the LTV and its implications of the LTV in Wobbly, syndicalist, and some other libsoc interpretations. Jacob Haller 04:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jacob Haller. Theory of value is essentially about what objective factors determine prices in a market economy. This has nothing to do with the hymn's essentially ethical concern about who is a useful member of society and who deserves what. What's more, I think that associating the stanzas with an economic theory that happens to be largely abandoned today is a way to covertly argue against the hymn (and against much of anti-capitalist rhetoric in general). This would be highly inappropriate on Wikipedia, so I'll take the liberty do remove it until it is sourced. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Utah Phillips

This article states that Utah is still singing "Solidarity Forever." Unfortunately, his voice is now silent (see his Wikipedia entry). I wasn't sure how to edit the page, because the article's point is that the song is still sung. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bulei (talk • contribs) 23:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've tried a modified sentence. OK? Dwalls (talk) 23:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The most famous union anthem after The Internationale

""Solidarity Forever", written by Ralph Chaplin in 1915, is perhaps the most famous union anthem after The Internationale" is an unsubstantiated claim and I suspect an attribute of Wikipedia:Systemic bias, in Britain I would guess the The Red Flag is sung far more often than either of them. -- PBS (talk) 04:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Really? Glad to hear it! In this Blairite era, I thought the Red Flag was too old-hat! (In the States, it's harder than it used to be to get folks to sing any songs whatsoever at union conferences.) --Orange Mike | Talk 14:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC) AFSCME L.91; NWU/UAW L.1981; IWW I.U. 660

I have removed the uncited claim about The Internationale. It has been unverified since August 2008. - CompliantDrone (talk) 16:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

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BioShock 2

I was reading through the page and noticed that in the popular culture section there's no mention of BioShock 2. It's a really small and easily forgotten thing, but in the multiplayer one of the characters (a manual laborer called Jacob Norris) sings the final verse while injecting himself with a plasmyd to fight in the civil war :) Just wanted to point it out 80.104.62.17 (talk) 23:53, 6 February 2021 (UTC)