Talk:Songmaster

Josif's Sexuality

I've read the book, and while I can't remember the exact quote, I know the "62 percent gay and the rest heterosexual" sentence is inaccurate. The quote was "x% gay, x% straight, x% (single digit) attracted to sheep." That may be interpreted as something of a joke, but that is how the quote goes and it should be double checked or removed. IsaacSapphire 02:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pedophile theme

I am not sure I agree with the addition of this novel to category:Novels with a pedophile theme [1]... comments? ++Lar: t/c 21:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with that categorization entirely, so much so that I removed it...most likely it was originally added by someone who has never read the book, going solely on the article (which focuses far too heavily on the sexual themes anyway). While there is some mention in the book on the subject, the only part that truly concerns Ansset is the brief scene where the guard fondled him slightly. His relationships with Mikal and Riktors were entirely non-sexual; Josif's attraction to Ansset can't rightly be called pedophilia, in my opinion - I thought it was clear that while Ansset's looks initially drew Josif in, it was Ansset as a person that Josif fell in love with, and the sexual aspect occured simply because Josif felt himself incapable of loving someone emotionally, but not physically. And, though Ansset's age at the time was only mentioned in passing, when the encounter occured, he was, technically, an adult. As for Ansset's relationship with his captors, it's impossible to tell whether he was abused sexually or not, because of the incomplete information about that period (though he probably wasn't, as that would probably have interfered with the training they were putting him through). ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 09:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have, of course, read the book and have a copy with me. If you read the author's comments quoted below there is no doubt that there is a strong pedophile theme in the book. Tony 09:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

Homosexuality in Songmaster

I thought I'd note the author's perspective on this theme. Extracted from the long essay "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" at his website. He writes:

Recently on Prodigy's "Card, Orson Scott" topic, one participant wrote a brief message saying that it really bothered him when I made the main character of Songmaster, Ansset, a homosexual; the message-writer used the word "abomination" to refer to homosexuality. The responses from others online were understanding even when in firm disagreement. Several pointed out that while the character of Josef was a homosexual, the character of Ansset was not. One wrote affirming the sympathy that I obviously had for homosexuals, and warning the original letter-writer of "homophobia." I could not leave the discussion that way without a reply.

Concerning the discussion of homosexuality in Songmaster, I must agree with those who held that Ansset "was" not a homosexual, though he engaged (or attempted to engage) in homosexual acts. As Kinsey pointed out, most American males (and many American females), even as long ago as the 1950s, had SOME kind of same-sex sexual gratification or experience. Engaging in homosexual behavior one time does not mean that you have that as your inevitable destiny.

Science has barely scratched the surface of the question of how much of our behavior has a genetic source and how much is environmental.... [long nature vs. nurture discussion cut]

All of which brings us back to my novel Songmaster. In dealing with Ansset, a beautiful, artistic child in the highest circles of power, the question of both pederasty and homosexuality had to be dealt with, because both would come up. I can think of few power-cultures in human history where they have not! I think think that may be because those who seek power tend to be inclined to self-gratification and to domination of others through sexual as well as other kinds of intercourse, and since power cultures are usually male-dominated, a beautiful but vulnerable male is going to find that most domination and exploitation come from men. There's more to it than that, I'm sure, but one thing was unavoidable: Ansset was going to be approached.

I could have used the "child molester" idea and made it a moral monster who used him -- but I had other monsters using him when they trained him to be an assassin, and I had loaded them up with enough burdens in the story. Besides, I thought of the many homosexuals I had known, and while a few of them (about the normal proportion among human males) were nasty and vicious and domineering, the majority (again the normal proportion) were decent and kind and meant well in their dealings with others.

So in creating Josef, I tried to show him as a good man with desires that, in the case of Ansset, he had no intention of acting on. Neither of them set out to have a seduction scene. But Josef, for whatever reasons, looked upon men as potential sexual partners and this was going to color his relationship with Ansset, even by avoidance, exactly as heterosexual men find that their desire for women colors their relationships even with women they do not intend to approach sexually. Ansset responded, not to his own sexual desires, but to Josef's unspoken need for him. And in the process, he learned exactly how much he had been forced to sacrifice in order to become a Songbird. Josef, too, was treated with the viciousness that evil people too often use toward those who are really no danger to them at all; some people, when they see that someone is truly helpless, become more cruel (as the Rodney King videotape and the subsequent footage of rioters beating innocent passersby all demonstrated).

[...]

What the novel offers is a treatment of characters who share, between them, a forbidden act that took place because of hunger on one side, compassion on the other, and genuine love and friendship on both parts. I was not trying to show that homosexuality was "beautiful" or "natural" -- in fact, sex of any kind is likely to be "beautiful" only to the participants, and it is hard to make a case for the naturalness of such an obviously counter-evolutionary trend as same-sex mating. Those issues were irrelevant. The friendship between Ansset and Josef was the beautiful and natural thing, even if it eventually led them on a mutually self-destructive path. [...]

DanB†DanD 18:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Major revamp hopefully ahead

I have to say, I'm actually a little shocked at how this article, which covers one of the most important works of a very notable science fiction author, fails in almost every respect to adequately describe the book and its themes. To start, the plot summary, such as it is, covers only until the end of "Esste". Additionally, several themes are missing, and those that are included are merely listed, with no explanation (with the exception of homosexuality, which is a minor theme at best, and not at all large enough to be the bulk of the article as it is now). There's even almost no mention of the theme of belonging, which is particularly disturbing because that makes up the core of the story - it's one of the only themes that is omnipresent, and is certainly the strongest. Hell, it doesn't even have an infobox!

So, I'm going to make an effort to try and rectify this, and I'd appreciate any help - this article can easily be tripled in length, if not more, if some of us just get to work on it. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 10:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but be careful that a discussion of the book's themes avoids sounding like OR. DanB†DanD 16:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

go ahead and add to it, but as DanB says, don't add your own interpretations. Try to find sources. Tony 17:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Tony

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Songmaster/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article is beyond a stub, it has thematic descriptions, but there is more that could be said about the major themes. There is a paucity of citable literary criticism, though. I put in just about all I could find when I added the cover. As for importance, it is considered one of Orson Scott Card's more significant works and he is on just about everyone's top 20 Science Fiction writer lists. So at least mid importance. It's no Stranger in a Strange Land but an important work. (I admit bias, it's a favourite of mine, and I have read it multiple times, and did some of the editing here) ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 10:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 06:30, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

What about "Songhouse"?

Here the original short story (a novelette, actually) "Mikal's Songbird" is mentioned but nothing is said about 1979's novella "Songhouse", also about Ansset and Esste, which was finalist in the 1980 Hugo Awards. Just for the record. --37.11.121.34 (talk) 20:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Nebula award?

I know the archived Card page lists "Mikal's Songbird" as a Hugo and Nebula finalist, but I can't find it on either the (FA) Hugo Award for Best Short Story or Nebula Award for Best Short Story. I think the information is incorrect on Cad's old site. Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:50, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

It was nominated in the novelette category. I changed the prose to reflect list and referenced independent award sites.Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:11, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Major revision needed

This article has an extremely weird tone and really inconsistent formatting of quotes. The use of flowery language, particularly MOS:EUPHEMISMs like "man/boy love" and "shared the emperor's bed" and random gaps in content like "After many further developments," not only detract from providing a good understanding of the plot, but also seem to soften the blow of the book's (rather flattering) depiction of pederasty. Obviously WP:NPOV applies, and I'm not assigning any intentionality on the part of the editors who wrote the synopsis, but right now the POV is shifted towards Card's rosy view of pedophilic relationship, and WP:CHILDPRO is quite explicit that this cannot be allowed. As an entry in Scott's bibliography that is highly relevant to his larger views on homosexuality, I think having a high-quality article on this book is quite important.Ithinkiplaygames (talk) 20:15, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Ithinkiplaygames Go ahead and make changes! I don't think many people are editing the page. If I do a project on Card's books, it will be a while before I get to this one. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)