Talk:South Georgia (disambiguation)

South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands

@Cuchullain: You claim "[t]he incoming links for "South Georgia" were often for the territory".

This was not what I saw when I looked through the incoming links. I do not recall seeing any that referred to the territory and not the island.

Please provide examples. Kahastok talk 18:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: While you're at it, since you also removed the fact tag from the link to South Georgia State College, could you please provide some evidence that this particular college is a plausible target for South Georgia, as opposed to South Georgia State, South Georgia State College or a similar match? I contend that this is a Partial title match, which is one of things we don't put on disambiguation pages. Kahastok talk 18:41, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The incoming links are fixed now. However, when I started fixing them, I ran into many uses of "South Georgia" that referred to the territory specifically,[1][2][3] and many others where it was ambiguous as to whether the island or greater territory was intended.[4][5][6] In fact, I stopped correcting them because in many cases I couldn't tell which was the better link. Sources also refer to the territory as "South Georgia" fairly regularly,[7][8][9] so clearly there's some ambiguity that needs disambiguating.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:51, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• Rat appears to have been referring to the island, but incorrectly called it a BOT.
• The reference in Irridentism was to "South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands", i.e. "South Georgia" referred to the island.
• Outline of the Post-War New World Map was incorrect, but note that the map does not actually show the South Sandwich Islands.
• Falklands War refers to South Georgia; there was no military action on the South Sandwich Islands during the war except for the expulsion of Corbeta Uruguay. Anyway, a reference to a territory established in 1985 would be anachronistic.
• 1904 refers to Grytviken, which is on South Georgia. A reference to a territory established in 1985 would be anachronistic.
• Antarctic field camps refers to Peggotty Bluff, which is located on South Georgia.
• This, this and this explicitly refer to the island, they do not use "South Georgia" in a way that includes the South Sandwich Islands. The middle one even has a nice picture - of the island.

I find my point is made by these examples. None uses "South Georgia" in such a way as to include the South Sandwich Islands. There is evidence that some are not clear as to the political status of the island, but that is something that we should be explaining. We don't do that by suggesting that "South Georgia" means something that it does not mean. Kahastok talk 19:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Not really:

• Rat contained the phrase "set sail from the Falkland Islands for the British Overseas Territory of South Georgia; the territory was clearly intended.[10]
• Irrendentism was linking "South Georgia" in the middle of the phrase "South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands", where the territory was intended.[11]
• Outline of the Post-War New World Map contained the line "the then British colonies that are now Singapore and Malaysian Borneo, South Georgia...", ie, the territory was intended.[12]
• In Falklands War, the second use isn't clear that the island was intended.[13]
• 1904 refers explicitly to " The settlement at Grytviken on the British South Atlantic island territory of South Georgia; Grytviken is on the island and this occurred before the territory was formed, but the phrasing refers to the territory and highlights the ambiguity here.[14]

In *Antarctic field camps, the comma structure of the phrase "Peggotty Bluff, South Georgia" could imply that the territory is meant, which is what I thought when I corrected it. As I say the ambiguity of the phrase made me stop correcting the links.

• This is primarily about the island but contains the phrase "South Georgia, the remote UK territory"
• This refers to "the British overseas territory of South Georgia"
• [15] "South Georgia (a British island territory in the southern Atlantic..."

Those are only a few examples of many. The RM at South Georgia Island (which I didn't oppose) found no consensus for the claim that South Georgia was the primary topic of the phrase "South Georgia". This was in part due to the ambiguity of "South Georgia" vs. the wider territory. It seems clear that readers may reasonably search for or click on the phrase "South Georgia" looking for info on the territory (whose article is far more in depth and useful than South Georgia Island), meaning it's appropriate to include here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Your point appears to be that several sources mistake the island for a territory, i.e. that they think the the island is a territory in its own right.

• Rat: it said "set sail from the Falkland Islands for the British Overseas Territory of South Georgia". But they meant South Georgia, the island specifically. None of the South Sandwich Islands has (or had) a major rat problem. The only confusion is that they assumed that the island was a BOT in its own right.
• Irrendentism. The logic of the listing here is that "South Georgia" - taken alone - refers to the territory, including the South Sandwich Islands. It is surely obvious from the words "and the South Sandwich Islands", in the phrase "South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands" that "South Georgia" does not include the South Sandwich Islands.
• Outline of the Post-War New World Map, the then-colony that is now South Georgia? If you look at the map, it only shows the island. No South Sandwich Islands in sight. And the text doesn't imply that "South Georgia" might include the South Sandwich Islands. That said, the whole sentence is desperate for an overhaul, frankly.
• In Falklands War, actually, in context it's pretty clear - it means South Georgia. Quick Google search to demonstrate. It would, after all, be a touch perverse to sail all the way out across Antarctic waters in winter to a small uninhabited island with no port facilities of any kind, and then try to offload 5000 troops from a ship the size of the QE2.
• 1904. You might also refer to the French territory of Tahiti, that doesn't mean you think that "Tahiti" might refer to the entire territory of French Polynesia. Similarly in the case of Antarctic field camps, you might refer to Pape'ete as being on Tahiti without thinking that "Tahiti" is the formal name of the territory. If you refer to a location as being on Maui it doesn't mean that the word "Maui" might refer to all of Hawaii.

The consensus at Talk:South Georgia Island is one of the very worst content decisions I have seen on Wikipedia in my eleven years here. We have - quite literally - made up a new name for this island and decided to use it instead of the WP:COMMONNAME, for no reason that anyone seemed able to articulate.

But it doesn't appear to have been made because of any confusion between island and territory. Nowhere in that discussion was it argued that any such ambiguity existed. The closest we get to that is where the first poster referred to ambiguity "between a group of islands and this part of South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands", but that appears to be ambiguity between part of the territory and another, larger, part of the territory. Which parts aren't clear - the editor refused to elaborate. Even if there were such ambiguity, it would surely be mentioned in the first sentence of the article on the island. No need for a special disambiguation page. It's the same number of clicks for people looking for the territory either way.

Wikipedia should be here to educate our readers. Many people around the world say "England" to mean the United Kingdom, but England is not a disambiguation page between United Kingdom and England Country. There's no evidence of any widespread usage of "South Georgia" to include the South Sandwich Islands, but even if there was there'd be no reason to pander to the mistake. Kahastok talk 20:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The first !vote references ambiguity between "South Georgia" and the territory and the next one seconded. Two others noted additional potential confusion with other things. In any case, for better or for worse, the decision was not to move the island to "South Georgia" based on this ambiguity. Given that there was no clear consensus that there was a primary topic, a dab page is the conventional solution.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:03, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

No they didn't. They argued for ambiguity - possibly with the surrounding islands - but never mentioned ambiguity with the territory. The most we can say is that they argued for ambiguity with things we don't have articles for.

And as we have seen - my point is made clear by this discussion - there is no ambiguity in practice between island and territory. In no reference that we have seen does "South Georgia" include the South Sandwich Islands. Kahastok talk 21:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I don't think that interpretation is accurate. At any rate, there's no clear support for South Georgia Island being the primary topic of the term "South Georgia".--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Re South Georgia State College, this refers to "South Georgia State" as "South Georgia" multiple times; this and this do as well.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:55, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

If a couple of sport results, where "South Georgia" is generally only used after a reference to "South Georgia State" (i.e. the context is needed), this would imply a hatnote at most, with the island the WP:PRIMARY topic. It wouldn't imply a full-blown dab page to distinguish the two. Kahastok talk 19:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

We include whatever may be ambiguous. There's no reason not to.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:48, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Note WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. When the search term has a clear primary meaning - as in this case - we go to it even if it is formally ambiguous. Kahastok talk 20:43, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

There didn't appear to be support for the island being the primary topic, WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT or otherwise, at the RM.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:03, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:South Georgia (island) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:23, 12 August 2021 (UTC)