Talk:Steven Beitashour

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Full name[edit]

Walter, Steven Mehrdad Beitashour is Beitashour's full name according to his American passport. Since the '79 revolution, Iranians are forced & required to have an "Iranian name". Therefore, his name is written as Mehrdad Beitashour in his Iranian passport. Sorry for any confusion, hope it helps.--Bowser2500 (talk) 00:59, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Give me a source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:17, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sources with his full name as Steven Mehrdad Beitashour:
https://www.facebook.com/StevenBeitashourFanPage
http://www.transfermarkt.com/steven-beitashour/profil/spieler/145114
http://www.scoresway.com/?sport=soccer&page=player&id=124048 --Bowser2500 (talk) 01:30, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A Facebook fan page is not a reliable source. transfermarkt is not a reliable source. I'll have to check with the football project as to the third source. Find a reliable source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:34, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, here are some more sources: here, here, here, and here. It's pretty common, actually. A lot of Iranians abroad set their child's middle name as their Iranian name and their first name as whatever they please.--Bowser2500 (talk) 01:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
soccerpunter.com a blog. Not reliable.
iran-times.com doesn't mention an author name and has no clear editorial policy. Not reliable.
reuters.com finally a reliable source, but lists the name as Steven "Mehrdad" Beitashour, which implies his Iranian name is a nickname and not an official one.
WTF is http://www.tribunnews.com ? Regardless, it's not clear where the player information is gleaned from, but it's the first source that correctly listed him on the Earthquakes' reserve team during his recovery. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:02, 31 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Protected[edit]

I've protected this page for a week since you two can't manage to discuss your issues on the Talk page. If the warring resumes when the page is unprotected, you will both receive blocks. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 21:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for protecting it, but we have been discussing. The problem is the other editor is new and either isn't reading or isn't understanding the guidelines for editing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No need to protect it, the two topics of discussion that were being debated have been accepted by both Walter and I. And as Walter pointed out, I'm new here & he had to point out some of the guidelines.--Bowser2500 (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the name is still not sourced reliably. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When seven sources are listed, your pertinacity is to blame, not their reliability.--Bowser2500 (talk) 10:22, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Seven sources indicate Steven Mehrdad Beitashour? I don't see any that support that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So... both of you agree it can be unprotected? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SARCASM. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it can be unprotected, I don't see why not.--Bowser2500 (talk) 20:28, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Because you will edit war over a name that does not have a reference. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I rest my case, continue to have it protected as Walter is too incompetent to see the seven sources above and he is the one who will continue to revert changes.--Bowser2500 (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You've just broken WP:NPA, but admins won't do anything about that any more than you making seven revert to this article, including removal of maintenance templates.
Here are your sources with my comments:
  1. https://www.facebook.com/StevenBeitashourFanPage - Fan site so not a RS.
  2. http://www.transfermarkt.com/steven-beitashour/profil/spieler/145114 transfermarkt is not a RS. Check with the football project. An editor has actually been removing all of them from across Wikipedia over the past two months.
  3. http://www.scoresway.com/?sport=soccer&page=player&id=124048 No clue if it's a RS or not, but I suspect it's not.
  4. http://www.soccerpunter.com/players/124048-Steven-Mehrdad-Beitashour Another open source therefore not reliable.
  5. http://iran-times.com/iran-beats-thailand-2-1/ Carries no author and so does not meet WP:RS, but it's the first one that's even remotely close to meeting RS.
  6. http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/05/07/uk-soccer-world-iran-squad-idINKBN0DN0JR20140507 finally a RS, but it lists his name as "Steven 'Mehrdad' Beitashour", which implies that "Mehrdad" is somehow a nickname or not part of the subject's name.
  7. http://www.tribunnews.com/superball/profil/124048/s-beitashour another source that does not meet RS.
So, I'm sorry if you missed my responses above, but find a RS that supports the name as Steven Mehrdad Beitashour or revert your addition. I recognize that his English name is "Steven Beitashour" and his name while playing in and for Iran is Mehrdad Beitashour, although even some of those sources are not reliable, but the combined name is not supported by a RS. 22:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Alright, here's an example of you breaking WP:NPA here.--Bowser2500 (talk) 22:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reporting you for edit warring is not a violation of NPA, and if you don't have any further RS, I think we're done. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, but your condescending tone is.--Bowser2500 (talk) 22:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry that I'm coming off as condescending. I'm attempting to be perfunctory and precise.
Once again, do you have any RSes to support Steven Mehrdad Beitashour as the subject's name or not? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here and here. Could you please update the RS on the main article as I can't? Both the NBC and SoccerAmerica sources seem more reliable to me; have your pick. Thanks.--Bowser2500 (talk) 22:54, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/01/iran-names-24-man-squad-for-world-cup/ is both a RS and supports the full name as it appears on Iran's roster. socceramerica.com is not a RS. May I suggest that you read what goes into making a source reliable? That site is open to all editors and fans. See http://www.socceramerica.com/about/. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're the best, thank you.--Bowser2500 (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't accept that. If I was the best, I would have found that source myself! I'm glad we could work to find a RS though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:38, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edit protected[edit]

Request change of

Steven Mehrdad Beitashour<ref name="fullname">

with all of the copy that follows, to

Steven Mehrdad Beitashour<ref name="fullname">http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2014/06/01/iran-names-24-man-squad-for-world-cup/<ref>

And a similar edit to the infobox's reference for the subject's full name

| fullname = Steven Mehrdad Beitashour

etc. No reference is required there as it will be reference in the lede. I will complete the reflinks and other changes in a week when the article is no longer protected. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done @Walter Görlitz: If you want to do the reflinks etc. now, just put the article content in a sandbox, e.g. Talk:Steven Beitashour/sandbox, and I can update the article from that. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 23:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good call. Just finished my edits. Do we still need the two different names in the infobox? In other words change Steven Mehrdad Beitashour <small>(United States)</small><br/>Mehrdad Beitashour <small>(Iran)</small><ref name="ghatreh">[http://www.ghatreh.com/news/nn16075781/%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%A8%DB%8C%D8%AA-%D8%A2%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1-%D9%BE%D8%B3%D8%B1-%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B1%DA%AF%D9%87-%D9%86%DB%8C%D8%B3%D8%AA Ghatreh]</ref> to just Steven Mehrdad Beitashour? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Walter, his full name should be enough. Also, can we take off the protection now?--Bowser2500 (talk) 00:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

New category[edit]

Please add the Category:2014 FIFA World Cup players to this article. JackHoang (talk) 00:59, 2 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality vs ethnicity[edit]

The subject is known for playing a sport, not for his nationality. WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO clearly state not to discuss ethnicity in the lede. The consensus at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football is to only display the nationality of the team that the player is representing at the international level. It is not to be hyphenated. So as requested, I corrected John Anthony Brooks and Jermaine Jones while Fabian Johnson was already fixed, probably be me.

There are several ways of dealing with this.

  1. List only the national name only.
  2. Don't mention the nationality in the opening paragraph but state that the player, "{is a footballer/plays soccer} as a {position} for {club team} and for the {international team}".
  3. If it is particularly contentious, we have completely removed nationality from the opening paragraph and left a referenced discussion in the article.

Also, Vancouver Whitecaps FC legally have the FC as part of their name and that is also their common name. Unlike European clubs, it is always displayed and is never piped-out. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Is Beitashour's second goal for LAFC notable?[edit]

User:Walter Görlitz is continuously reverting my edits that are well sourced for no apparent reason. I tried notifying them on their talk page though they reverted that as well. Please bring it to the talk page before reverting again.--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 00:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not continuously reverting your edits, but I am consistently reverting them, and each one, except the last has had a reason. So I'll assume your comment is hyperbole, and not an attempt to paint me in a negative light to get your way or worse, a boldfaced lie. My reason is quite a simple question and I wrote it the first time I reverted you: do we need a goal-by-goal account of his career? My answer is no. I watch about 100 player articles and the answer there is no as well. Unless a secondary source (not a match center primary source [1]) that discusses Beitashour's effort at length. The second source, [2] speaks about how special Beitashour found it because his father was in attendance in San Jose, but not about the coach or any of the nonsense you want to write about.
Finally, the community is clear. When they wrote item four of WP:NOTNEWS: "Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are. For example, news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to over-detailed articles that look like a diary. Not every match played or goal scored is significant enough to be included in the biography of a person." (bold mine). So find notable goals to write about, not every goal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:51, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're the only one complaining about it and it is completely unwarranted. It is notable as he scored his first goal of the season and provided an assist as well, especially since it is a rarity as he is a defender. There is really no need for you to be this pedantic over a sentence update unless if you have a hidden agenda otherwise. I'll reword the sentence to better fit your prerogative.--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 06:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And you're the only one adding it back in. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:41, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RfC[edit]

The consensus is that the biography section should not contain his third goal.

Cunard (talk) 05:29, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the biography section contain his third goal? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:41, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • No - we are not a sports almanac, we are an encyclopedia, and we don't need every single goal or game, just notable ones (first goal, first game, other ones that are covered by detailed sources and not just match reports). GiantSnowman 10:28, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No and neither is the second goal worth including. Certainly not without fleshing out the entire section with more prose and citations. Agreed with GS that notable goals are worth notating, but I see nothing indicating that the second or third are. Jay eyem (talk) 12:45, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Summoned by bot) It's been a week, maybe this has died down, but definitely No, not worthy of inclusion. Almanacs are one thing, encyclopaedias an entirely different thing. Happy days, LindsayHello 15:13, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No Summoned by a bot. Plenty of biographical info already on the page - third goal seems frivolous at this point. Comatmebro (talk) 00:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No The information about his third goal is not sufficient or important enough to be included in the biography section. It makes sense to be included in his career statistics, but if every goal scored was included in the biography section this article would begin to read like a highlights page rather than an informational article. Cook907 (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - Summoned by bot. A third goal is not notable and neither is his second. Keep third out and remove second. Meatsgains(talk) 02:51, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Wow...is this really necessary? And it’s not his second goal; it's his first of the season as well as an assist and third overall...--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 06:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it's necessary. You are not discussing this based on any policy, manuals of style or guidelines. The community definitely needs to discuss this. Third goal overall for the team. Corrected. Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:04, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why did this go all the way to a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC after just six hours? Please see WP:RFCBEFORE. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Redrose64: Because it's been an edit war for a day and Ronnnaldo7 is not using any logic. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:49, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I discussed notability above yet you keep denying it. Your ego seems to be the issue here.--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 17:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Yes, you discussed notability, but notability is for whether an article should or should not be created. What you're ignoring is the inclusion criteria for content: WP:NOTNEWS. Not everything this (or any other) notable subject does is worthy of inclusion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And how many other professional athletes have their first goal of the season noted? It's very common among top soccer players. Seems to me you’re nit picking and you're also the only one claiming this is WP:NOTNEWS where as I argue otherwise. It's a simple sentence update on his start to the season and the fact that you're this high maintenance over it boggles my mind. You've now been told by myself and another user that an RfC is not necessary for something as minuscule as this yet you feel the need to drag this on. It's time you WP:JUSTDROPIT.--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First goals, many. But continuing discussion of every goal, or first goal of a new season, not many. And Beitashour is not a top scorer or a top footballer!
Now, if you would be so good as to tell me why WP:NOTNEWS might apply (I quoted and bolded the words). And while I'm the only one claiming NOTNEWS, you're the only one making any other claims. I'll drop it when the community has discussed whether or not to include it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've already told you - it's his first goal of the season, as well as an assist to Vela for his first MLS hat trick, and a goal as a defender is a rarity for him. It is very common to mention among soccer articles and you could be nit picking other articles as well...--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 05:33, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for prevaricating yet again. If you don't have a policy, guideline or manual of style to fall back on, just say so. It is not an important milestone and needs no special attention. If there were need for it, publication after publication would have gone on about his achievement, not Vela's. He's an aside to Vela's effort. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:02, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and removed the sentence I had previously added as you were right, sorry for the inconvenience.--Ronnnaldo7 (talk) 18:27, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the sentiment, but discussion is never an inconvenience. It reminds me that there is WP:NOTIMELIMIT to making changes. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - @Walter Görlitz, Jay eyem, and LindsayH: - I'm having a similar problem (also linked to Iranian football) at Ayanda Patosi with @Shervin27:. Perhaps comments at the talk page would be helpful? GiantSnowman 14:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not quite the same thing. He is mentioning actual milestones: first match, first start, etc. However, the cruft about the Iranian side is identical. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No - My understanding is that specific goals are only mentioned on wikipedia if there are important milestones (first, 100th etc) or if they were particularly important in a given context (a goal that saved a team from relegation or a goal that was crucial in winning a final etc). A goal by goal breakdown is out of the question. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Why American English?[edit]

Why should we use American English for "an Iranian" footballer? The sport is called "football" in Iran, not "soccer." Wouldn't this suggest, maybe, that his nationality is ambiguous, and we should adjust the article accordingly? Anwegmann (talk) 08:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:STYLERET is a longstanding tradition as part of the manual of style. For the record, Iran has no national variant of English, so there is nothing to appeal to the use of either "football" or "soccer" there. As Beitashour was born in the US, and the article had developed using American English, prior to my first edits here (notice the term "soccer" in both the lede and in relation to "college soccer"). It stayed using American English even after he signed with Iran. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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