Talk:Suze Orman/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Category: Jewish American Writers ?

Resolved

 – Sourced additions made. -- Banjeboi 22:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I relaize that her parents were Jewish, but she identifies as a Buddhist. Should she be classified as a Jewish writer? --Robb0995 01:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, just because she doesn't "practice" doesn't mean her nose gets smaller, or she spits less.

Well, she's certainly Jewish ethnically and culturally, even if she doesn't practice the religion. A lot of Jews aren't religious, but they are unquestionably still Jewish in many ways. Oh, btw, I'll add her to the Buddhist category. Vulturell 06:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

if that's the case, then she should be a Hebrew and still not a Jew. That's analogous to calling a non-religious Italian person a Catholic. well, right or wrong, being jewish is generally considered an ethnicity in addition to a religion. I hate to use the holocaust as an example, but hitler didn't particularly care if the people he killed were practicing or not. You do frequently see a similar thing with catholicism, though in that case its more cultural than ethnic(eg lapsed catholic/recovering catholic). On Thermonuclear War (talk) 04:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Does Anyone Know About Suze's Personal Life??

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 – Sourced additions made. -- Banjeboi 22:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Is she married? Divorced? Gay? She's mentioned that she is in a committed relationship with someone special - who is it? Does she have any children? birth, step or adopted? (68.77.5.131 01:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)) Anitra Yes, she's a dyke.

Homosexuality

Resolved

 – Sourced additions made. -- Banjeboi 22:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link. --Lincoln F. Stern 19:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2007/02/financial-guru-suze-orman-is-gay.html

Woops, thats a blog. Here is a better link. --Lincoln F. Stern 20:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003549559

About the Feb 2007 articles

Resolved

 – Sourced additions made. -- Banjeboi 22:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a fact that she is gay. With that said, it does not add to the article to say that she "came out as a lesbian" or that she was "never with a man". The term "coming out" gives the non-neutral impression that she has been hiding and she deserves the benefit of the doubt. If I went over to the article on George Bush and put in the line "he has never been with a man" it would be equally valueless. -- Mufka ^{(user) (talk) (contribs)} 01:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I just added the virginity bit after seeing it linked on Drudge, sorry. I pulled it back out. - Denny 07:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

She was probably joking about the virgin thing. It's hard to tell since it's a print interview. Either way, it doesn't really need to be in the article unless it's later made clear that she was joking. Crumbsucker 13:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems that there is still some insistence to edit the article with regards to her homosexuality. Most edits are by anon users and no one seems to be really discussing it here. I guess the discussion for consensus here should focus on using the term gay vs. lesbian (I think we should settle on homosexual) and on the value of including the fact that she was never with a man (which I think adds absolutely no value to the article). There also seems to be some tendency to include redundant information in the Trivia section (which almost seems to me to indicate that the editors adding such information are not reading the whole article first.) -- Mufka ^{(user) (talk) (contribs)} 16:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The term "homosexual" is rather dated, so it seems an odd choice. In modern language, female gay people are called lesbians. What's the issue with calling her a lesbian then? And why are you taking out all references to her being gay from the article?? Please stop doing that. She's just come out in a national newspaper. There is no reason whatsoever to exclude that information from this article. At this point, it's nowhere in the article for reasons unfathomable. Moncrief 14:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that "homosexual" is the most neutral word. The word "gay" has a connotation of living a certain way, out and unashamed, and "lesbian" is a neutral word that applies to homosexual women. None of the words seem dated to me.

"Never been with a man" does seem like a humorous thing to say in context even if it is true. To some, practicing homosexuality ends one's virginity so the remark of hers about being a 55-year-old virgin also might not be meant to be factual. Cardiffman 15:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It's really meant to be more technical, as it traditionally referred to never having penetrative coitus with a man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.59.50 (talk) 00:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the accuracy of your assessment of the use of those words (I don't agree with you), Suze Orman is indeed OUT AND UNASHAMED. She just came out in the New York Times, for crying out loud. I am very happy to take this to both Requests for Comment and the GLBT group here on Wikipedia if you're still unclear with the preference for "gay" or "lesbian" over "homosexual." Moncrief 15:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, "gay" or "lesbian" is prefered over "homosexual" per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity). Pretty clearcut. The text right now looks pretty good. Crumbsucker 16:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The text as it stands now looks good. I think my efforts to foster discussion sparked the necessary dialog on the topic in order to form some sort of consensus. -- Mufka ^{(user) (talk) (contribs)} 16:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed "bemoaned the fact that" to "regretted"; "bemoaned" is obviously pejorative, so I changed it to a more neutral word. --Andersonblog 19:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good choice. Thanks. Moncrief 19:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Quality of Advice needs its own seperate section? And does anyone have a photo?

Resolved

 – Sourced additions made; also per NPOV we need to stick with WP:RS. -- Banjeboi 22:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does the quality of her advice seem like it needs its own separate section? I just finished reading a post she blogged for Yahoo! about student-loans, and really, I cannot find it yet but I am trying, I think she just cut and paste stuff out of a student loan pamphlet my university distributed. Its sitting around here someplace but everything, except maybe the wording, was the exact same. To call her a financial expert, financial advisor, or even a credible financial source when she administers advice that is so very common seems... well... not exactly right. Especially not for Wikipedia. On that note, why is her coming out as lesbian (and by that I do not mean that she was hiding it really) a significant fact? Somehow, I just do not see her sexuality relevant to an article about her. I have objections to stating sexual preference at all as a notable fact in Wikipedia (after all, we do not mark every straight-persons article as "a straight person"), but other than that she wants tax advantages, the fact she is lesbian is not really relevant to the person that is most well known as Suze Orman. And if you read the comments on her posts in that Yahoo! blog, many other people seem to agree with me. Can we use those pages as a citation, btw?Scryer_360 07:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC) I think the article as written indicating that she is a lesbian and quoted remarks about losing 1/2% of wealth to her partner upon death is a good social commentary, and relevant. It should be left; famous people unfortunately lose privacy, it just goes with the fame and $ they have to deal with. --Neoursa (talk) 11:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Nobody marks a straight person as such because it is assumed. The only reason not to note her as a lesbian is if you are wanting to reinforce the general invisibility of gay people in our culture. To say that it is an irrelevant fact about Suze Orman would be the same as saying that your presumed heterosexuality is irrelevant about you which means that you would not mind if others believed you were gay, as that would be irrelevant by your logic. Obviously Suze Orman did not want people to believe she was straight so she came out and ommiting the fact would be the same as saying that she was straight, it would also be ignoring what she herself feels is relevant about herself. It is also common to note when people belong to other minorities, it is only when people feel squeamish or prejudiced towards a particular minority that there is a problem with it. It is certainly a fact of interest to other lesbian and gay people and I'm sure a good deal of straight ones as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.12.178.179 (talk • contribs)

factual error

Resolved

 – Fixed. -- Banjeboi 22:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

At the heading of her article, it says that she was born in 1951. However, later on it says that she was born in 1959

net worth accurate?

source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB7OoA612pM states that her net worth is estimated to be $25M not $10M —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.225.156.9 (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Her girlfriends name is Katie

Resolved

 – fixed

not K.T. 24.10.195.188 (talk) 05:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)Vi

No, K.T. are her girlfriend's initials. They stand for Kathy Travis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.154.240 (talk) 06:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

From Buttercup Bakery to Merrill Lynch?

Resolved

I am not disputing this article but in three short years Suze Orman went from waitress to Account Executive to Vice President of Investments. More details, please..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.123.223 (talk) 21:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find some sources. I do, however, remember her talking about it in an interview that aired a few months ago on CNBC. AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

You are getting caught up in titles which is actually the point of them in the first place. Both mean the same thing. They mean she was a broker aka financial salesperson. They can be called anything these days from Financial Consultant, Financial Advisor, Financial Planner... Vice President titles mean almost nothing in the banking and financial services industry. The major banks and investment firms have thousands of VPs. It's just marketing to impress you, which is seems to have accomplished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.68.75.241 (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

While I'm watching Suze Orman on PBS, she says Fred Hasbrook was the man who got the people together who lent her the $50,000. This entry says Fred with no last name. [comment by vkbaker] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vkbaker (talk • contribs) 10:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Suit of Merrill Lynch

Suit of Merrill Lynch. The section neglects to mention that Orman sued Merrill Lynch for the lost $50,000 .BingoDingo (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Is the better of the three. the other two refs would likely not pass as reliable sources. Her own bio is available online but it's a PDF so I'll leave it to others to digest it. -- Banjeboi 22:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Criticism Section

This really needs to be expanded, given Orman's dismal track record of lousy advice. 74.181.77.174 (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)ME (April 2008)

Sorry we stick with WP:NPOV. Actually the whole section should be eliminated and instead integrated into the rest of teh article as appropriate. -- Banjeboi 22:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Political activism section?

Resolved

 – Sourced content added. -- Banjeboi 22:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't, as of yet, seem notable, at all. Lots of celebs are politically active, have opinions and donate money. If this doesn't get enriched to show why it's included I suggest it gets removed altogether. Banjeboi 04:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It's perfectly relevant, since Suze Orman advises on financial matters, and politicians make financial policy. She has said many times on her show that she believes the government needs to do more to stop predatory business practices, such as not clearly disclosing penalties and fees. I remember on a recent show a caller was mislead by a student loan company as to how the application and payment process would work and she felt that more had to be done to combat this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.193.252.201 (talk) 22:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed text

“ In a New York Times Sunday magazine interview in 2007, Orman stated that the bulk of her personal net worth is in fact invested in zero-coupon municipal bonds, triple-A-rated and insured, an ultra conservative strategy surprising to some who have followed her investment advice. ”

I've removed the above text as it needs to be cleaned up for NPOV per WP:BLP and should be sourced as well so others can verify what the New York Times states. Banjeboi 13:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

“ In an interview with Debra Solomon in the Sunday New York Times magazine in 2007 Solomon asked Orman what she did with the main portion of her own money. " Save it and build it in municipal bonds, " Orman stated. " I buy zero coupon municipal bonds and all the bonds I buy are triple-A-rated and insured so that even if the city goes under, I get my money." ”

And again, we need the link to this reference and then we need to present this encyclopedicly, just because she said this doesn't make it notable. Where's the article I'd be happy to look at it? Banjeboi 01:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Controversy over role as GM spokesperson?

First of all, I am not sure why her sexual orientation is even an issue on the listing. Who cares? I hope she is happy in her personal life.

One aspect of her advice was that to save money, you should buy a good used car and keep it a long time. I recall hearing her on the radio talking about how her old BMW 7-series had served her well, for over a decade and 100,000 miles. She advised buying a "new used" car and avoiding leasing:

http://biz.yahoo.com/pfg/e16buylease/

But then GM hired her as a pitchman (pitchperson?) and suddenly, buying a new BUICK made perfect financial sense:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5273/is_/ai_n20887072

I am not picking on Orman alone. All of these financial "self help" Gurus get into trouble once they start making a ton of money with radio shows, books, seminars, etc. Going a step futher and hawking products (and car loans) for GM is something I haven't even seen even Dave Ramsey do, however.

The one person the "self-help" Gurus seem to always help, is themselves.

Anyway, I thought the apparent conflict-of-interest in being a GM product (and loan) spokesman was more important than who she is sleeping with.

Do you think this would be a suitable addition for the "Criticisms" section?

Also, you might want to consider deleting the whole Lesbian thing. I think we are beyond the titillation stage in this country (and the world) and the sexual orientation of a financial advisor is really wholly irrelevant. If she were a Gay activist, maybe I could see it, or a porn star. Or a right-wing religious person (the hypocricy factor). But otherwise it seems sort of more National Enquirer than Wikipedia.

FWIW

Joe Patent (talk) 17:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Many spokespeople do this exact same thing - endorse a product which may not be in your personal interest. It's rather naive to think this doesn't happen. If this is notably controversial and we have reliable sources that cover the controversy then it could be added. Her sexuality is covered encyclopedicly according to policies, no titillation seems to be taking place. -- Banjeboi 18:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I found a reliable source that does discuss this [1] it also gives a NPOV overview of doing endorsements, criticized for it and responses regarding such. -- Banjeboi 05:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

College Information

I am watching her talk to Tim Russert on CNBC where she is saying that she did not graduate from the University of Illinois, but rather couldn't pass the foreign language requirement and ended up graduating from a state school somewhere else.Kenallen 03:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm. I was at the University of Illinois commencement ceremony last week where she said just that. The university gave her an honorary doctor of humane letters. Macfanatic (talk) 05:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

This is why the foreign language requirement is a bad idea. People make life altering decisions based on it when they shouldn't have to. And, a foreign language requirement has an adverse effect on the staffing of the department of foreign languages causing it to swell with often incompetent staff.Godofredo29 (talk) 18:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC) In her Women & Money book, she says she took the Spanish classes at a university in California, then transferred them back to U Illinois. It's not unusual for people to do that to finish a degree and the degree still comes from the school where they did the majority of coursework. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.19.190.84 (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why my edits keep getting undone

I edited this article, adding quotes from two extremely well qualified and respected financial commentators who offered reasonable and well-supported criticisms of Orman's financial advice. While I am extremely critical of her as well, and am a widely respected financial authority myself (I am the executive director of the nation's largest non-profit financial advisory organization, the Association of Christian Financial Advisors, with a membership in excess of over 3,000 financial professionals), I am faithfully observing the policy of not interjecting personal opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that this is true of Benjiboi, the individual who keeps undoing my edits. Benjiboi appears to have no motive for his or her actions except that he or she is an avid gay activist who is intent on keeping Orman's lesbianism at the forefront of the article, and who wishes to squelch any questioning of her dubious financial credentials and history of poor advice.

Rcdrury (talk) 22:41, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with you and I am by no means a Christian activist or whatever. Her sexual orientation does not seem relevant to me at all. If we are accepting of gays in America these days, then it should not be worthy of mention. Do we predicate every African American biography with "oh by the way, he's black" or the same for other minorities? It makes no sense. It seems jarringly out of place.

How does being a Lesbian affect the financial advice given? What is this, a dating page or something?

Her financial advice was overall fairly good. For example, she once touted buying a good quality secondhand car and keeping it for 100,000 miles, as a way of saving money.

Most financial consultant have similar advice and it is widely recognized in automotive circles than a low-mile secondhand car is the best bargain, as it does not have that horrible initial depreciation of a new car.

But as I noted on an earlier talk page (now mysteriously missing) she sold out to GM and started touting loan and lease deals at GM on TV.

See:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5273/is_200411/ai_n20887072/

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/CreateaPlan/stop-listening-to-suze-orman.aspx

"This from a woman who spends half a million dollars a year chartering private jets and who sells "Cruise With Suze" packages on an Italian luxury liner. (She has also hawked for GM, claiming that leasing a luxury car -- you know, the kind that people drive to impress other people -- is a terrific financial decision: "If you ask me, that's smart money!") No wonder she winks more than Sarah Palin, girlfriend."

Or how about this:

"There, you might also be persuaded to open an Orman-sponsored TD Ameritrade brokerage account or buy one of the products that she also sells on QVC, including the Suze Orman FICO Kit Platinum Version w/Action Planner ($47.70), the Suze Orman Identity Theft Protection Kit w/Anti-Spyware ($39.78), and Suze Orman's Organize and Protect Financial System ($66 plus S&H; Easy Pay! installment plan available)."

Wow, the Rachael Ray of finance. Scary!

Or how about this whopper:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/CreditCardSmarts/why-suze-orman-is-wrong-again.aspx

"If you have an unpaid credit card balance and not much saved up in emergency savings I need you to listen up. My advice has changed.

"I want you to only pay the minimum due on your credit card balance and instead make it your top priority to build as much of an emergency cash fund as you can."

Ow! This is suicidal! The average credit card has an interest rate of 14%. Even with a low rate card (I have 5.9 at Citibank) paying only the minimum payment would require nearly 29 years to pay off the balance. Who is paying her to say these things?

Unfortunately in these types of biography pages, the person making "mysterious edits" is often in fact the subject of the biography, their minions, or their groupies, followers, fans, or whatever.

So, expect this talk page to be deleted again, and whatever edit you make to the main page to be rapidly un-edited.

Welcome to Wikipedia, where the truth is whatever someone says it is!

Joe Patent (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Past talkpage subjects are likely found in the talk archives unless they were deleted per WP:Talk which generally covers blatant off-topic posts. If your edits keep getting deleted you may try proposing what you wish to add on this page with the independent reliable source used to support it. Any content still has to conform to our policies on WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, etc. -- Banjeboi 01:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Name

A bit off topic, but I've always wondered... it is supposed to be "Suze" (as to rhyme with "Cruise" or "Snooze") or "Susie"? On Oprah's TV show, she said the latter, but it doesn't say anything here. ★Dasani★ 00:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

- Does "Orman" has a meaning in Russian or Romanian? It means "forest" in Turkish. Gagauz Turks are living in Romania. Maybe her surname comes from there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.90.188 (talk) 03:52, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

POV lead tag

I have placed a lead POV tag as the introduction or lead of a BLP should not consist of a list of awards and first place finishes. Per WP:LEAD, the into should summarize the entire article. There is no mention of the subjects early life, education, career development and very little on the several books she has written. This needs to be rectified and the current POV removed.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I have reformatted the lead and removed the tag.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)