Talk:Tai chi/Archive 5

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Archive 1 ← Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

Uniforms and ranking

I believe this is also a valid section to add to the article.

  • long-sleaved (master Yang Jun)
    long-sleaved (master Yang Jun)
  • short sleeved (grandmaster Wong Docfai)
    short sleeved (grandmaster Wong Docfai)

It is widely known that taijiquan practitioners normally wear either cotton or silk traditional Chinese 'gongfu uniforms'. The Northern, long-sleaved, uniforms being the most common and the Southern, short-sleaved, not as common, but also used. The colours are quite variable, however, they're normally all black, all white or black & white.

The belts, I'm not too sure about. My shifu's school (a branch of Wong Doc-Fai's Plum Blossom International Federation) has students wear blue satin sash with coloured fringe (tassels on the ends). As a student graduates, the colour of these fringes is changed, however the belt remains blue, until the student advances to black belt. Is this the usual belt grading, or is does it vary. If it varies, please cite examples.

Your input in this would be much appreciated. Thank you. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

As I understand it, belts and ranking are not common in Taijiquan. I believe individual schools in the west often copy Japanese ranking systems because people like ranks and belts, but these are not traditional to Taiji. I understand there are academic degrees in MA one can earn in China, as well as ranks in various arts through particular organizations, but these also are not traditional and, as far as I know, not promoted by most prominent Taiji lineages. I would recommend not including the concept of rank in this article.Herbxue (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, unlike other martial arts such as Aikido or Gongfu, there is no standardized uniform, and there is definitely no belt system. Many Kungfu schools which also teach taiji have their students wear a uniform, but the vast majority of taiji practitioners meet in informal settings. Not even the original school of taiji, Chen style tai chi chuan uses uniforms. Anyway, we should get reliable sources about this, not just talk about it. Steven Walling • talk 18:18, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Alright, then just to mention that belts are not a normal part of taijiquan, I think, could be quite informative in itself.
  • Chen-style practitioners in single whip
    Chen-style practitioners in single whip
  • Grandmaster Chen Fake
    Grandmaster Chen Fake
  • Yang-style Grandmaster Yang Zhenduo
    Yang-style Grandmaster Yang Zhenduo
  • Wu-style Grandmaster Wu Guangyu
    Wu-style Grandmaster Wu Guangyu
Steven, you linked to Chen-style, however, both the pictures there show them wearing such outfits. I've shown them here, and others. I don't mean that the outfits are a formal requirement, but rather that they're commonly worn by regular practitioners. Here are some additional links to significant people in taijiquan, all seen to be wearing these outfits: YMAA, ISCT, Chen-style Grandmaster Chen Xiaoxing, master Chen Bing, master Chen Yu, Grandmaster Chen Xiaoxing & Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I have to agreed with Steven Walling that there are no "uniforms" or "rankings" in traditional Chinese martial arts such as Taiji. Any uniform or ranking is a modern adaptation due to the relative success in popularization of martial arts such as Judo, Karate and Tae Kwon Do. The picture posted represents formal clothing that one would wear for demonstration. Those clothing are impractical for training and applications. Those "silk pajamas" gets too hot and too easily torn to be of use in day to day training. In general, training in Chinese martial arts is very practical - t-shirt or work wear - something you can get down and dirty. In terms of ranking, there are no official ranking systems. In the old days, if you are good, you are tested by the martial arts community in informal challengers. For example, Chen Fake did that when he first arrived in Beijing. Currently, such challenges are not recognized so you have ranking by committee. For example, you can get a ranking from Chinese national organizations based on your achievements. However, such rankings evolved from modern wushu and has no bases in traditional Chinese Martial arts. In my opinion, ranking runs counter to the Confusian tradition - "Is he not a man of complete virtue, who feels no discomposure though men may take no note of him?" You train not for the belt but for yourself. ottawakungfu (talk) 22:53, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, so let's go with that, then. How about stating in the category that, although such pictures often show taijiquan practitioners wearing such clothing, they're not commonly used in actual practice and are only typically worn in demonstrations and the like. In everyday practice, simple, loose fitting, comfortable clothing is worn, such as {insert clothing here}, with schools promoting the 'gongfu uniforms', being atypical. Also, that belting is not present in taijiquan, with the few schools providing it, merely introducing it for the sake of the students psychology, giving them feeling a sense of accomplishment as they progress in their practice and understanding of taijiquan. The point is, I think it's much more valuable to mention it and give an understanding to what people actually see in the real world, rather than just not mentioning altogether. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
It seems we can agree on that much, so I'll make a section simply called "Attire" and then make a little write-up on what is and isn't worn in taijiquan and when it is worn, include the above picture of master Yang Jun) who is wearing the "silk pyjama's" (as ottawakungfu so eloquently put it, ha ha ha) and is in a form that clearly shows them. That will show the outfit one can expect to see at a demonstration, etc, while the picture of the women practicing tuishou that is already on the article page can be referred to as the typical 'practice-wear'. I will try make a good write up, but it will be more of a starter for others to add upon. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I would like to add a taijiquan logo to the article page.

  • not this exact file, but this type of symbol
    not this exact file, but this type of symbol

Although many people incorrectly say that the taijitu symbol is the taijiquan symbol, those that know taijiquan to a higher degree, will know it is not so. The symbol that represents taijiquan is represented by a symbol that lies between wuji and yin and yang. There are 2 ways in which it can be depicted, the first simply being a black & white spiral. The second, is the 'objective' of taijiquan practitioners, also called an ancient taiji symbol, is the rotation of yin and yang to mix it into a central wuji. I believe this second symbol is the most distinctive and accurate depiction of taijiquan & would thus like to include the logo on the main page.

The nature of Taijiquan ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is the logo to display on the page. Showing clockwise rotation, with yang rising on the left, while yin is descending on the right as in the taijitu. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 22:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Role of qi and Philosophy

Qi plays a hugely important role in the philosophy of taijiquan, and taiji (philosophy) also plays an important part in taijiquan. The article, however, makes no real mention of it, except perhaps in the brief mention of qigong. I would thus like to suggest making a section or subsection that speaks more about the role of qi in taijiquan. I believe a "Philosophy" section, which is not present at the moment (yet is a major part of taijiquan), with a Qi subsection, (and possibly other subsections within philosophy too, since it's not unidimensional) would be valuable additions to the article. I'm quite an amateur though, and am quite hopeless at making citations, so that's why I'm merely suggesting it at the moment: I think my contribution would be very limited. Comments on this suggestion? ~ InferKNOX (talk) 08:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea. Concepts like Wu Wei and anecdotes from Zhuang Zi are very appropriate towards exploring the general approach of Taiji.Herbxue (talk) 03:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear a positive response. I noticed that the first paragraph under the partnered training section is about taijiquan philosophy, so I'll make the philosophy section and put that paragraph under it, in order to have the philosophy section present for everyone to start building upon sooner. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 06:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Name

Is there a reason that this article has apostrophes (T'ai)? As far as I know, the Wade-Giles system for representing Chinese has been superseded by pinyin, which doesn't use apostrophes to mark final/initial separation. Moreover a comparative wiki search reveals 16.5m results for "Tai Chi" vs. 850,000 for "T'ai chi" This title is not only inconsistent with almost every other Chinese-named page on Wikipedia (Anglicized using Pinyin or common variants), but also internally inconsistent - it should be "T'ai ch'i ch'uan" if initials and finals are separated. Confused, LT90001 (talk) 04:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I pushed hard to switch to pinyin about 2 years ago, and was met with a majority of people who feel the wade-giles is more appropriate because the majority of westerners know it by that name. Eventually we will switch to pinyin, but the consensus was that we should not do that until it reflects both the most popular way to write the word in western countries, AND is technically correct ("Tai Chi" for example is the most popular but not technically correct). The topic of changing the name of this article is controversial, so I encourage you to read archived talk page threads first if you really want to change it now.
Regarding the current title - Chi is correct wade-giles because 極 in 太極拳 = pinyin "Ji" and w-g "chi" (Ch'i would equal Qi, which is not the correct transliteration of 極). Technically the u in ch'uan should have an umlaut, and I cannot recall the rationale for omitting it. Herbxue (talk) 15:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
More specificly, you can find about 2 meters of discussion here: Talk:T'ai chi ch'uan/Archive 1#Romanization / Naming Revisited. Also, a couple of sections below taht, there's 1 meter discussion of the various redirects.--Nø (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Well, I appreciate that there's been a lot of debate, so I just want to register my discontent. It seems like a compromise was reached, and now you have a title written in a way that is not commonly used in a system that is no longer employed by the vast majority of Chinese speakers. LT90001 (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Actually I eat my hat on this one. Although I think it's inevitable this article will eventually become the pinyin form, it's clear a lot of work went in to finding a suitable consensus name, and today's probably not the right day for this change. LT90001 (talk) 02:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks LT, I agree, and please weigh in with your opinion the next time the pinyin question is raised!Herbxue (talk) 04:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Just to weigh in here, since I was part of the original push for Pinyin. I've been increasingly seeing the pinyin name being adopted, however, it's hindered by those advertising, using the incorrect Wade-Giles spelling (Tai chi chuan, without the apostrophes) in order to catch the attention of more people, who are familiar with that incorrect spelling. It is unfortunate that taijiquan is still referred to in the Wade-Giles transliteration, however, if it's to be employed here in accordance with popular usage, it is only logical that it has to be written correctly, thus the apostrophes. The comparative searches you'd have to thus look at is not "t'ai chi" vs "tai chi", but rather "tai chi" vs "taiji", as "tai chi" is a Wade-Giles misspelling, not Pinyin. :) InferKNOX (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
Just to beat a dead horse a bit, why is correctness so important? I see this a lot with China-related topics, where users insist on using the "correct" name or some version thereof. WP:NAME would suggest that we should use the common English name when there is one. In this case there should not be any question what the common English name is. Today, it is overwhelmingly "Tai Chi" or "Tai Chi Chuan". Remind me why correctness is super important for China-related topics. see WP:EN and WP:COMMONNAME - Metal lunchbox (talk) 16:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Large deletion of T'ai chi ch'uan's long-standing health section

There is a discussion happening by WP:FT/N#T'ai chi – neutrality & sourcing regarding a huge deletion of the health benefits section on this article by Alexbrn talk, on the basis that the "content was out-dated, superseded, or poorly-sourced".
Please join the discussion. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 13:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion hopefully moving here, where it's supposed to be. htom (talk) 16:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It was done without consensus, and with lots of valid content removed -A1candidate (talk) 16:53, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
The content was in violation of WP:MEDRS. We should not be including such stuff that's sourced so poorly. jps (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Not all of it. I'm putting it in a section below for discussion, elaboration, and (at least for some of it) return. You're welcome to participate. htom (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Steps in the forms list

Hi guys. I would like to develop the rather bleak list of t'ai chi ch'uan forms article by adding lists of steps under each form, but have no idea where to start as far as the names go. I'm willing to put in the work, but need help find the list of steps for each form. Optionally, I can also colour code the styles in list to match the colour coding in the lineage tree (in the e.g. I've added coloured borders since they're more subtle). Also, instead of writing the hanzi & pinyin separately, ruby characters can be employed. Here's the example of what I've made so far (I've only added the steps to the 1st):

...

24 forms

28 forms

...

Comments and opinions are welcome. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 19:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Fighting effectiveness

I suspect this has been debated for some time here, but I must point out an inaccuracy in this section.

Opponents of t'ai chi ch'uan as an effective martial art point to the lack of success of t'ai chi ch'uan in the current competitive arena :of mixed martial arts. However, despite its primarily defensive philosophy, and in contrast to the 'ground and pound' tactics often :favored in MMA, offensive t'ai chi ch'uan often relies upon singular, crippling precision strikes at soft and vulnerable parts of the :body, such as the throat and stomach, in order to disable opponents[40] - an approach which is by definition considered illegal in modern :competitions. The question may therefore not be one of effectiveness, but of safety in the ring.

My issue is with the bolded statement. While blows to the throat have been illegal in most MMA organizations since the 1990s, there is nothing illegal about "crippling precision strikes at soft and vulnerable parts of the body" - this is what lots of fighters are trying accomplish. I know nothing about Tai Chi, so perhaps the art is very dependent on throat strikes. Whatever the reality, this needs to be re-worded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harley peters (talk • contribs) 02:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I do not have an answer to this, but think I can add to the discussion. Not to say that it is the explicit meaning of the statement, but to in taijiquan, certain techniques/forms such as wave hands like clouds are designed to disable the opponent by doing instantaneous & long term damage such as breaking joints, rather than subdue using qinna. Perhaps it's alluding to that. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 05:19, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Tai Chi practiced as a martial art depends on mastery of balance, controlled weight shift, and alignment of the human frame, as it does in the context of a health practice. As such, first and foremost amongst any Tai Chi practitioner seeking to use it's principals against an opponent would be to master an opponent's balance and defeat an opponent's strength by applying force at angles against that opponent's arms, for example, which would put an opponent's arms an angles disadvantageous for action and strength. Although not unique to Tai Chi, this in conjunction with subtle off balancing is the chief path in Tai Chi for mastery of a contest with an opponent. Watching a push hands contest will reveal this at once.

With respect to vulnerable strikes, all martial arts consider such techniques a part of their lexicon of tools for self defense, and Tai Chi is no exception to this. This however is not the mainstay of Tai Chi's emphasis in self defense contexts. Bitswapper (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

In essence, China recently held an "MMA" competition, and the Tai Chi guy not only won, but the black-listed website cites his "superb skill." I want to revamp this section of the article using factual representation as the basis from this link: http://sports.cntv.cn/20120911/106525.shtml Here is the black-listed: (fix-it) http:// www. examiner. com/article/does-tai-chi-have-any-real-martial-art-value Please check out these details and get behind me on this. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 05:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Traditionally T'ai Chi was not a sport for competitions in a staged arena but a practical defence method against actual attacks. In a real self defence scenario there is no referee, no timed bouts, there may be multiple attackers who strike unexpectedly from behind, possibly using weapons and a variety of techniques that would be considered illegal in a MMA kick-boxing contest. You only need to look at a list of legal MMA moves to realise this, for example in a real world scenario a defender would not be wearing groin protection and a knee or kick to the groin would be a primary form of defence that is not permissible in a boxing contest. A martial art like MMA uses various ways of offsetting the danger of these techniques by using gloves, groin protection, fighting in the ring against a set opponent for a determined length of time, however the means by which T'ai Chi teachers offset these dangers are different, for example by slowing a technique down or limiting a factor like the amount of force used in a simulated attack routine.

"Illegal blows were listed as groin strikes, head butting, biting, eye gouging, hair pulling, striking an opponent with an elbow while the opponent is on the mat, kidney strikes, and striking the back of the head with closed fist. Holding onto the ring or cage for any reason was defined as foul."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts#Regulation Chuangzu (talk) 06:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Article Promotion

I promoted this article to B and with the exception of a few small sections without references it is close to being classed GA. A little effort should take it at least to that point.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Finally! I've been waiting for this to happen, to the point of almost requesting a review of the rank and am glad to see it come to pass. For my part, I've been looking at Aikido (a GA ranked martial arts article) & trying to glean the positive aspects to employ here towards that end. Hope it gets to GA. Sigh... refs, just to build those refs. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 21:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Anyone can promote from C to B - you could have done it yourself - after that it becomes complicated. Aikido is a featured article (FA) by the way and the process was quite tough - it first went through GA and peer review. The next step for the T'ai chi ch'uan article is to get it to GA and, based on your response, I will start the process. As I said, in my opinion it is very close.Peter Rehse (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks InferKNOX for all your hard work on this article.Herbxue (talk) 09:41, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I looked again at the GA criteria and the article and instead of submitting it directly to GA I have asked for a peer review. There are areas that could use more references with some that are unreferenced and there is also the current issue about health benefits that should be resolved first (ie. stable article). With the Peer review it is stated that the goal is GA so hopefully suggestions that come along will have that goal in mind. There are some automatic tools available on the review page that can help.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Oops, I meant Aikido is an FA. I'm too nervous to edit ranks, as I'm not well versed enough with WP & don't want to get ahead of myself & promote something just because I feel I've inputed enough to do such, so I'll leave it to you more experienced editors. Thanks Herbxue, but I haven't done much material input, just things like formatting, clean-up, etc. Despite all the time I've put in thus far to these various taijiquan related articles, if it makes any sense, I'm lazy to go into referencing, which just seems tedious to me, ha ha. I'm hoping other editors that are more enthusiastic in that vein will fill that in, but at this point, if there continues to be little input, I may take-up that slack a bit. For now I look forward to the feedback from the peer review & to have some attention here, thanks for the, Pete. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 14:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Peer review was closed without any comments. Pity - but the next step is a GA submission. There are a couple of sections with no references (i.e.. Fighting effectiveness) but I still think it is worth going ahead. Comments?Peter Rehse (talk) 10:50, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Fighting effectiveness vs Martial application

The controversy of the "fighting effectiveness" section was never resolved and it cannot be denied that it will be continually argued against as being subjective. In the interest of improving the quality & rank of the article this needs to be addressed. After noticing the "martial application" section on the Chen-style taijiquan page, I would like to propose naming the "fighting effectiveness" section likewise, as a step towards a "neutral point of view". I think "fighting effectiveness" is within the scope of "martial application", but the latter has a less suggestive tone. From there the follow-up can perhaps be verification of the section through referencing, etc. Comments? ~ InferKNOX (talk) 10:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

You are right. "Fighting Effectiveness" is a loaded term open to interpretation by the reader especially one fueled by numerous televised MMA bouts. "Martial application" requires less "proof" and would be easier to reference. That said the section would require a bit of a re-write to accomodate the change.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree. 'Martial application' more neatly captures the application of techniques (or roots of techniques, if they have evolved since moving away from direct application, and especially since 'fighting effectiveness' also loses contexts such as typical opponents and their styles, armaments, etc). And to be fair, the section will likely need a rewrite to accommodate further referencing. — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 13:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
This section still remains without any references and probably will be the main block to GA status. My advice is to delete the entire section unless some references can be found quickly. I actually don't think as a whole it really contributes to the article.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I also agree, it could be replaced by a simple description of common techniques.Herbxue (talk) 16:58, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. I will submit to GA status after a few days assuming the change is accepted.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I went quiet on this, got tied up with real life issues. Will try and see if anything valuable can be salvaged. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 17:58, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment (from disinterested observer) - for an article aiming at GA, this contains an awful lot of unsourced material; I can't imagine it passing unless this is fixed. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 11:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I am of two minds specifically because of the point you made. The section removed was just the worst case and I feel that it might not make the cut this time either but I would hope that a GA review would highlight the shortcomings that were not delivered during the peer review process. On the other hand it might considering there are at least some references for all the remaining sections. I am trolling for opinions here.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:05, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

External links

I have moved some links from the External links section because they are inappropriate for that section but might be useful as sources to support article content:

  • "Medical Research on T'ai Chi & Qigong (Chi Kung)". World Tai Chi Day. Retrieved 2007-04-13.
  • "Tai Chi Boosts Immunity, Improves Physical Health in Seniors". Acupuncture Today. 04 (11). 2003. Retrieved 2007-04-13.
  • "Tai Chi: With slow movements as fluid as silk, the gentle Chinese practice of Tai Chi seems tailor-made for easing sore joints and muscles". Arthritis Today. Retrieved 2007-07-09.
  • "World T'ai Chi & Qigong Day's Headline News". World Tai Chi Day. Retrieved 2007-04-13.

Jojalozzo 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC) .


Requested move 18 November 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Tai chi, per WP:COMMONNAME and the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

T'ai chi ch'uan → Tai chi – This article stands in clear distinction to the WP:COMMONNAME guideline used on Wikipedia, and is titled in a confusing manner in a system that is now no longer widely used. It should be changed to reflect modern usage.

The current title ("T'ai chi ch'uan") is a transliteration from Chinese using the Wade-Giles system. This results in:

  • A name that is not commonly used.
  • A confusing name few Chinese speakers, and fewer English speakers, will be familiar with
  • A name derived from a system of transliteration that is not widely used, compared to the current system, Pinyin
  • A name is not even internally consistent, with all the other Chinese transliterations using pinyin.

A change is consistent with WP policies and guidelines:

  • Wikipedia guidelines WP:COMMONNAME
  • Wikipedia guidelines on romanisation (WP:PINYIN: "English Wikipedia uses pinyin as the default Romanisation method for Chinese characters") and Chinese name titles (WP:NC-CHINA: "The titles of Chinese entries should follow current academic conventions, which generally means Hanyu Pinyin without tone marks. ")
  • Wikipedia article titles guideline, which states "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, " (WP:UE)

"Tai chi" is the common name. Compare:

  • Google n-gram, which shows that "Tai chi" is used in literature at least 20 times more than T'ai chi, and has been used more since the 1970s
  • Google search: more than 33 million results for "Tai chi", less than 450 thousand for "T'ai chi"

It's time that we move this article to its appropriate title, "Tai chi"! Tom (LT) (talk) 22:07, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Support. No brainer. Per WP:MOS-ZH we should be using pinyin for the article title.  Philg88 ♦talk 22:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. "Tai chi" seems like a textbook example of a common name.—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 05:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support "Tai-chi" "Tai chi" is definitely the common name. Stickee (talk) 08:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
So which one. Tai chi or Tai-chi.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Pinyin doesn't use hyphens so it should be the former.  Philg88 ♦talk 18:53, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to use a hyphen. Corrected my comment now. Stickee (talk) 23:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - Tai chi is actually not pinyin (taiji is), but is definitely the common name. Those Wade-Giles apostrophes are rarely used by the media nowadays. -Zanhe (talk) 20:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Tai chi is definitely the common name, while T'ai chi ch'uan looks weird. -JesseW900 (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The title should satisfy both commonality and correctness. Taijiquan is an art from China and all versions of the name are an attempt to transliterate 太極拳. Tai Chi is not a correct transliteration and encourages the false assumption that the "chi" refers to "qi". Part of what the article does is educate people who want to learn more, its ok for the title to be correct even if its not what they expect. They still get here after the redirect if they search "Tai Chi". I would support a move to "Taijiquan" but not "Tai Chi".Herbxue (talk) 17:15, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I also noticed a couple people who support the move do so in support of Pinyin - "Tai chi" is not the pinyin, Taiji (or Taijiquan) is. If we want to vote on correct pinyin, then my vote is yes. But I oppose the common name "Tai chi" as it is not correct pinyin, nor is it correct WG.Herbxue (talk) 17:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

The article has the record I think for alternate spelling redirects some quite obscure but I would like to see some care taken that the spelling really reflects common usage. Also - whatever is decided the article would have to be gone through carefully to be consistent which is not the case now.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page move

I blinked and missed that move debate - I know the guideline is 7 days but that seems very quick for such an important decision. I'm no expert but this feels a bit 'lowest common denominator'-ish to me. I always thought the proper name was Tai Chi Chuan (whether you choose to have apostrophes or 'j's instead of 'ch's) - can someone explain the reasoning behind dropping the last 'word'? Btljs (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Also the article title is now at odds with all the content that talks about t'ai chi ch'uan. More thought was needed before moving in my opinion. Btljs (talk) 09:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, the "拳" merely indicates that it involves the hands and is superfluous in the same way that "with the hands" would be in the title of Boxing.  Philg88 ♦talk 09:44, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I missed this too. I would have opposed the move. I'm happy with moving to pinyin transliterations, but not to misusing terms. Taiji is a philosophical concept, taijiquan is a series of movements. When I was taught this, taijiquan was part of a family of three exercise routines based on taiji, along with taijijian (sword) and taijiqiang (lance). Equally, there were movement exercises based on bagua (eight trigrams) and wu-xing (five moving forces), either for the fist or hand, the sword, or the lance. This made a series of nine classes one could choose from. I think that calling taijiquan just taiji (misspelt at that, to pander even more to those who know nothing about it), especially when we have a taijijian article, is just confusing, and looks ignorant. If we are to have English language articles about ancient ethnic traditions from foreign countries, the least we can do is to try to find out (and pass on) something about them, rather than pander to the lowest common denominator, with little regard for the actual living and ancient culture we are plundering. --Nigelj (talk) 13:47, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
People will be wanting to move the Beijing article to Peking next, and Chennai to Madras, because it looks nicer to their eye! --Nigelj (talk) 13:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I've contacted the closer to see if we can get this debate re-opened. Btljs (talk) 14:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Good, the move was premature, and ignored many pages of previous debate that went into settling on T'ai Chi Ch'uan (I support correct pinyin Taijiquan). I don't believe adequate consensus is there to support the move. Also, 拳 is not superfluous, it is part of the proper name and indicates that this is a martial art, rather than the philosophical/cosmological concept. Herbxue (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I too missed the discussion about the move. I think this is an ill-conceived move, since the full and correct name of the martial art is T'ai Chi Ch'uan, and there was an extensive discussion a while back to precisely change the name this way. If I had been able to vote, I would have OPPOSED the move and suggested instead to create a redirect template from Tai Chi to the correct article, if that would appease people, but leave the original article ALONE. Just because the name is popular does not make it correct. The name is NOT Tai Chi, it is Tai Chi Chuan (modulo the Wade-Giles spelling). (As an aside, I humorously even tell my students that if you practice Tai Chi, you're only doing a "dance". To do the martial art you need the "boxing" part, hence, the Chuan. Oh and there is the philosophical aspect of Tai Chi creating the Yin and Yang from Nothing.) Furthermore, for a move of such an important article (well, it is to me!), on which many many people have contributed, the move was agreed upon with only 6 people voting?? This seems WRONG WRONG WRONG to me! I call for a vote to restore the name AND create the redirect template.Bruno talk 17:32, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
I think there is some confusion here. There is no "correct" english name for Tai chi, because it's a transliteration. Unlike Beijing or Xian, this isn't a name that local people have chosen to represent the city, and because it is a school of thought/action there is no organisation that "owns" it and can determine its name. Surely on this encyclopedia we should be using the name which people commonly refer to? As stated above the name "Tai chi" is used 20 times more in literature and has been used more since the 1970s. It also has vastly more articles on google, which indicates how other people have chosen to use it. I fail to see how using the complicated title with apostrophes helps readers, the vast majority of whom (1) will be unfamiliar with the term and (2) will be unfamiliar with how to pronounce it. --Tom (LT) (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment on (and/or revert and reopen) the close here. First, I'd like to affirm that I performed the move and close as an uninvolved, disinterested administrative action: my job was to read the discussion for consensus and adherence to guidelines and policy. If I were unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the requested move, this would be one reason to reopen the discussion. However, while I was unaware that additional editors would subsequently object to the quality of the discussion, it does not seem that the subsequent objections have introduced new arguments. I doubt that I would have closed the request differently in light of the new comments, given the new title's accordance with WP:AT policy guidance on common usage in English. This chart shows that "tai chi" is the most common form, which made the move advisable under WP:COMMONNAME. Usage in other languages is not the primary concern when a term enjoys wide recognizability in English. To make a parallel point, this is one reason we so many references on Wikipedia to "jiu-jitsu", which combines archaic romanization and a reading that would be "incorrect" in terms of Japanese. "Correct" transcription is not generally the key point after a term has passed into English parlance.

One suggestion made by the editors here is not simply to revert to the previous title, but to introduce a different title based on pinyin (Taijiquan) that might be argued to be more precise, if less common. There still seems to be little support for the previous title. Therefore, if necessary, I suggest a new move request to discuss support for another proposed title rather than a relisting that might simply result in reconfirming the support for Tai chi evident above. I understand the sense that changing the article title is an important decision and that many people feel it is an important article, but it will not be difficult to move the page again if a new discussion deems it necessary. Dekimasuよ! 20:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that, for reasons unclear, much of talk archive 1 and talk archive 2 are more recent than talk archive 3, which shows a rejected move from 2006. The first archive contains naming discussions from 2008 and 2011, including a list of a number of associated articles that might reasonably be expected to have their titles changed as a result of any decision made here, although the 2011 discussion was not done through WP:RM or formatted as a multimove request. Dekimasuよ! 21:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
For those interested, the discussion in 2011 was lengthy and resulted in consensus on T'ai Chi Ch'uan, it can be found here. I don't doubt Dekimasu's expertise on following policy correctly, but I would prefer a return to the previous consensus version, and require the current proposal (Tai chi) to pass muster more thoroughly before adopting it. Herbxue (talk) 23:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
While I don't fault the admin for following policy, perhaps it should be made a requirement that admins review the existence of prior discussions and their outcomes before making decisions that bring on situations like this one.Bruno talk 14:50, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with this suggested requirement, but I tried myself unsuccesfully to locate the previous discussion (before links were supplied here). Is there a safe way to check if such a discussion exists - short of reading through all archives? PS. I do not object to the present name of the article ("Tai chi"), though it does not conform with pinyin transscription, and though "Tai chi" / "Taiji" is strictly speaking a philosophical concept (aka "yin/yang"), not the martial art "Taijiquan". It is probably true that "Tai chi" is the name and spelling most non-practitioners and non-sinelogists will recognize.Nø (talk) 15:02, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
{{Old moves}} can be added to the top of the talk page, but it has to be filled out and applied manually. Dekimasuよ! 19:18, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the usage chart is relevant as it compares terms of 3 words and 2 words. After all this chart shows that "tai" or "chi" would be much more popular names and "John Kennedy" is more popular than "John F Kennedy" - precision is the point here surely? Personally I would prefer Tai Chi Chuan based on the fact that it is the most popular spelling (in line with the common usage guidance above) BUT without removing a crucial part of the title which makes it ambiguous and non-precise. If there is any support for this, I'll start another move request as suggested by Dekimasu above. Btljs (talk) 17:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
As far as the Google Books result, please note that Tai and Chi also refer to many other separate topics that could increase their overall usage in Google Books. This is also a slight factor here in terms of precision, given the philosophical concept, but "Tai chi" has consistently been a redirect to this article, indicating that it this has generally been regarded the primary topic of the phrase. Dekimasuよ! 19:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
I know, I was being a bit facetious. My point is if you remove a word from a descriptive name then you generally get more hits but also lose precision. Names tend to get shortened by use over time. Having "Tai chi" as a redirect is the correct solution to this trend; removing the precision of the title IMO is not. Btljs (talk) 09:10, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed.Herbxue (talk) 20:20, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I also missed the debate. Personally I'm fine with using the common name tai chi. I'd prefer if taijiquan caught on with the general public, but it hasn't yet. My question is: what do we do about all the places on Wikipedia where the term "t'ai chi ch'uan" is used to link to this article? Is this going to be like when all the Chinese dynasties got the word "Dynasty" decapitalized and all the links to those articles had to be changed? Is t'ai chi ch'uan deprecated from now on, or are we keeping it for everything except the article title? What term should we use by default in new content? Difference engine (talk) 06:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Not just links but throughout the article itself. The job is half done. The easy half. Btljs (talk) 08:22, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Health discussion

The following was deleted as not conforming to WP:MEDRS. It looks to me more like a new study came out and is being used to dismiss all of the other work, in some cases other meta-studies.

Further, the replacement is not even a fair summary of the abstract: Several systematic reviews (SRs) have assessed the effectiveness of t'ai chi for many conditions including hypertension, osteoarthritis and fall prevention; however, their conclusions have been contradictory. The aim of this overview was to critically evaluate the SRs of t'ai chi for any improvement of medical conditions or clinical symptoms. English, Chinese and Korean electronic databases were searched for relevant articles, and data were extracted according to predefined criteria; 35 SRs met our inclusion criteria. They were related to the following conditions: cancer, older people, Parkinson's disease, musculoskeletal pain, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis (RA), muscle strength and flexibility, improving aerobic capacity, cardiovascular disease and risk factors, lowering resting blood pressure, osteoporosis or bone mineral density, type 2 diabetes, psychological health, fall prevention and improving balance, and any chronic conditions. In several instances, the conclusions of these articles were contradictory. Relatively clear evidence emerged to suggest that t'ai chi is effective for fall prevention and improving psychological health and was associated with general health benefits for older people. However, t'ai chi seems to be ineffective for the symptomatic treatment of cancer and RA. In conclusion, many SRs of t'ai chi have recently been published; however, the evidence is convincingly positive only for fall prevention and for improvement of psychological health.

Collapse copy of old version of article section.

Health benefits

Before t'ai chi ch'uan's introduction to Western students, the health benefits of t'ai chi ch'uan were largely explained through the lens of traditional Chinese medicine, which is based on a view of the body and healing mechanisms not always studied or supported by modern science. Today, t'ai chi ch'uan is in the process of being subjected to rigorous scientific studies in the West.[25] Now that the majority of health studies have displayed a tangible benefit in some areas to the practice of t'ai chi ch'uan, health professionals have called for more in-depth studies to determine mitigating factors such as the most beneficial style, suggested duration of practice to show the best results, and whether t'ai chi ch'uan is as effective as other forms of exercise.[25] Chronic conditions A Chinese woman performs Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan

Researchers have found that intensive t'ai chi ch'uan practice shows some favorable effects on the promotion of balance control, flexibility, cardiovascular fitness, and has shown to reduce the risk of falls in both healthy elderly patients,[26][27] and those recovering from chronic stroke,[28] heart failure, high blood pressure, heart attacks, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's and fibromyalgia.[29][30] T'ai chi ch'uan's gentle, low impact movements burn more calories than surfing and nearly as many as downhill skiing.[31]

T'ai chi ch'uan, along with yoga, has reduced levels of LDLs 20–26 milligrams when practiced for 12–14 weeks.[32] A thorough review of most of these studies showed limitations or biases that made it difficult to draw firm conclusions on the benefits of t'ai chi ch'uan.[25] A later study led by the same researchers conducting the review, found that t'ai chi ch'uan (compared to regular stretching) showed the ability to greatly reduce pain and improve overall physical and mental health in people over 60 with severe osteoarthritis of the knee.[33] In addition, a pilot study, which has not been published in a peer-reviewed medical journal, has found preliminary evidence that t'ai chi ch'uan and related qigong may reduce the severity of diabetes.[34] In a randomized trial of 66 patients with fibromyalgia, the t'ai chi intervention group did significantly better in terms of pain, fatigue, sleeplessness and depression than a comparable group given stretching exercises and wellness education.[30]

A recent study evaluated the effects of two types of behavioral intervention, t'ai chi ch'uan and health education, on healthy adults, who, after 16 weeks of the intervention, were vaccinated with VARIVAX, a live attenuated Oka/Merck Varicella zoster virus vaccine. The t'ai chi ch'uan group showed higher and more significant levels of cell-mediated immunity to varicella zoster virus than the control group that received only health education. It appears that t'ai chi ch'uan augments resting levels of varicella zoster virus-specific cell-mediated immunity and boosts the efficacy of the varicella vaccine. T'ai chi ch'uan alone does not lessen the effects or probability of a shingles attack, but it does improve the effects of the varicella zoster virus vaccine.[35] Stress and mental health

A systematic review and meta-analysis, funded in part by the U.S. government, of the current (as of 2010) studies on the effects of practicing t'ai chi ch'uan found that,

"Twenty-one of 33 randomized and nonrandomized trials reported that 1 hour to 1 year of regular t'ai chi significantly increased psychological well-being including reduction of stress, anxiety, and depression, and enhanced mood in community-dwelling healthy participants and in patients with chronic conditions. Seven observational studies with relatively large sample sizes reinforced the beneficial association between t'ai chi practice and psychological health."[36]

There have also been indications that t'ai chi ch'uan might have some effect on noradrenaline and cortisol production with an effect on mood and heart rate. However, the effect may be no different than those derived from other types of physical exercise.[37] In one study, t'ai chi ch'uan has also been shown to reduce the symptoms of Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in 13 adolescents. The improvement in symptoms seem to persist after the t'ai chi ch'uan sessions were terminated.[38]

In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of meditation research, conducted by researchers at the University of Alberta Evidence-based Practice Center. The report reviewed 813 studies (88 involving t'ai chi ch'uan) of five broad categories of meditation: mantra meditation, mindfulness meditation, yoga, t'ai chi ch'uan, and qigong. The report concluded that "the therapeutic effects of meditation practices cannot be established based on the current literature" due to the fact that "scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality."[39]

25 ^ Jump up to: a b c Wang, Chenchen; Collet, JP; Lau, J (2004). "The Effect of Tai Chi on Health Outcomes in Patients with Chronic Conditions: A Systematic Review". Archives of Internal Medicine 164 (5): 493–501. doi:10.1001/archinte.164.5.493. PMID 15006825.

26 Jump up ^ Wolf, Steven L.; Sattin, Richard W.; Kutner, Michael; O'Grady, Michael; Greenspan, Arlene I.; Gregor, Robert J. (2003). "Intense Tai Chi Exercise Training and Fall Occurrences in Older, Transitionally Frail Adults: A Randomized, Controlled Trial". Journal of the American Geriatrics Society 51 (12): 1693–701. doi:10.1046/j.1532-5415.2003.51552.x. PMID 14687346.

27 Jump up ^ Nguyen, Manh Hung; Kruse, Andreas (2012). "The effects of Tai Chi training on physical fitness, perceived health, and blood pressure in elderly Vietnamese". Open Access Journal of Sports Medicine: 7–16. doi:10.2147/OAJSM.S27329.

28 Jump up ^ Au-Yeung, S. S. Y.; Hui-Chan, C. W. Y.; Tang, J. C. S. (2009). "Short-form Tai Chi Improves Standing Balance of People with Chronic Stroke". Neurorehabilitation and Neural Repair 23 (5): 515–22. doi:10.1177/1545968308326425. PMID 19129308.

29 Jump up ^ Taggart, Helen M.; Arslanian, Christine L.; Bae, Sejong; Singh, Karan (2003). "Effects of T'ai Chi Exercise on Fibromyalgia Symptoms and Health-Related Quality of Life". Orthopaedic Nursing 22 (5): 353–60. doi:10.1097/00006416-200309000-00013. PMID 14595996.

30 ^ Jump up to: a b Wang, Chenchen; Schmid, Christopher H.; Rones, Ramel; Kalish, Robert; Yinh, Janeth; Goldenberg, Don L.; Lee, Yoojin; McAlindon, Timothy (2010). "A Randomized Trial of Tai Chi for Fibromyalgia". New England Journal of Medicine 363 (8): 743–54. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa0912611. PMC 3023168. PMID 20818876.

31 Jump up ^ "Calories burned during exercise". NutriStrategy. Retrieved 2007-04-13.

32 Jump up ^ Brody, Jane E. (2007-08-21). "Cutting Cholesterol, an Uphill Battle". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-07-14.

33 Jump up ^ Dunham, Will (October 25, 2008). "Tai chi helps cut pain of knee arthritis: study". Reuters. Retrieved 2008-10-26. "Those who did tai chi experienced greater pain reduction, less depression and improvements in physical function and overall health, researchers led by Dr. Chenchen Wang of Tufts Medical Center in Boston reported..."

34 Jump up ^ Pennington, LD (2006). "Tai chi: an effective alternative exercise". DiabetesHealth. Retrieved 2007-04-13.

35 Jump up ^ Irwin, Michael R.; Olmstead, Richard; Oxman, Michael N. (2007). "Augmenting Immune Responses to Varicella Zoster Virus in Older Adults: A Randomized, Controlled Trial of Tai Chi". Journal of the American Geriatrics Society 55 (4): 511–7. doi:10.1111/j.1532-5415.2007.01109.x. PMID 17397428.

36 Jump up ^ Wang, Chenchen; Bannuru, Raveendhara; Ramel, Judith; Kupelnick, Bruce; Scott, Tammy; Schmid, Christopher H (2010). "Tai Chi on psychological well-being: Systematic review and meta-analysis". BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 10: 23. doi:10.1186/1472-6882-10-23. PMC 2893078. PMID 20492638.

37 Jump up ^ Jin, Putai (1989). "Changes in heart rate, noradrenaline, cortisol and mood during Tai Chi". Journal of Psychosomatic Research 33 (2): 197–206. doi:10.1016/0022-3999(89)90047-0. PMID 2724196.

38 Jump up ^ Hernandez-Reif, Maria; Field, Tiffany M.; Thimas, Eric (2001). "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: Benefits from Tai Chi". Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies 5 (2): 120. doi:10.1054/jbmt.2000.0219.

39 Jump up ^ Ospina MB, Bond TK, Karkhaneh M, Tjosvold L, Vandermeer B, Liang Y, Bialy L, Hooton N,Buscemi N, Dryden DM, Klassen TP (June 2007). Meditation Practices for Health: State of the Research. p. 6. ISBN 978-1-4223-2489-9.

The original text of the section is also available here Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:05, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

It's important not to rely on the abstract: the full text also includes a mention of "improving balance" in the category of things for which there is a "suggestion" that the evidence was "conclusively or tentatively positive". I have expanded the quotation to clarify. Of the 15 sources that were used previously, just one was potentially okay: PMID 20492638 - and now we have a stronger, later source for its subject (which arrives at the same conclusion anyway). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Yobol, your revert references that the research review I cited does not relate to tai chi, only exercise in general. The content of the study specifically states that tai chi is 1 of 9 parameters that were intentionally searched for. Just because other physical activities were examined does not mean that it is not appropriate to mention its relevance to tai chi. It should be possible to include mention of the fact that physical activity was the suspected mechanism while still including a reference to the dementia review.
Proposed version: A separate 2013 review reported promising evidence that physical activities, including t'ai chi ch'uan, might improve cognition in senior citizens with dementia.
If helpful I have another 3 or 4 MEDRS-compliant sources about tai chi and/or exercise in relation to dementia. I didn't want to pile on references for a single, uncontroversial sentence, but it seems a significant point to make. What are your thoughts? The Cap'n (talk) 06:09, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
First, you are using an out of date review, this would be the most up to date version. Second, as far as I can tell, tai chi is only mentioned twice in the paper, once as a search parameter, and once when describing a trial excluded from the study. None of the trials included appear to use tai chi at all, so this source is not appropriate to use on this wikipedia page. This is, of course, is the problem with citing a source based on the abstract and not reading the paper. Yobol (talk) 06:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
With all due respect, Yobol, I did read the article and it includes more than a dozen mentions of tai chi, including listing it as one of the studies' main MeSH terms, which is about as much as any of the other activities are referenced. As for the other study, the one you cited A) is not publicly available or verifiable, so it's hard to tell how it does/doesn't relate to this specific topic and B) a 2 year old review is not so old that it should be considered obsolete. Also, whether or not this the reference works for the article I would encourage editors to not accuse others of making uninformed citations without at least asking them about it. The Cap'n (talk) 04:33, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Of course that review you are citing is out of date the website of that article has in big neon red sign saying "This is not the most recent version of the article" with a link to the one I am citing. That you would think it is not out of date when the authors and publisher specifically say it is out of date is, frankly, bizarre. The one I cite is of course available to the public, through a subscription. Whether you or any individual editor in particular has access to any one source does not affect its verifiability, per WP:PAYWALL. As the most recent and up-to-date version does not appear to discuss tai chi in any significant form, it should not be used in this article, nor should we use out of date reviews. Yobol (talk) 15:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, after now reviewing the now out-of-date review from 2012, "tai chi" is used as a search term only. None of the underlying studies actually discuss tai chi, at all. That you would think that this qualifies this systematic review as a source on this Wikipedia page on tai chi, when none of the actual studies discusses tai chi, is mind boggling to me. Yobol (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Tai Chi as a Internal Art

Deleted wholesale as unsourced (fair comment, will work on sourcing) and as duplicating material found elsewhere. There is indeed some similar material in the article 'neijia' which I plan on cross-referencing, and elsewhere in articles on Chinese martial arts as a whole. However, I believe this info is needed here.

If you look at the article's source text, you'll see 2-3 commented-out sections regarding internal arts and 'qi' that say, 'We should talk about this at more length in a separate section'. This section does. Many people looking at an article on 'Tai Chi' will want to know 'What's so special about it? How is it different from Karate, or Yoga, or dance, or whatever?' This section, I think, fills that need.

Please don't wholesale-delete again. If you have suggestions for improvement or constructive edits, please provide them.

ChengduTeacher (talk) 11:16, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Wudang contradiction?

Article says "the Wudang name falsely suggests these arts originated at the so-called Wudang Mountain, ..." yet linked Wudang chuan says "named after the Wudang Mountains". Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.207.145.188 (talk) 14:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

The category of Wudang martial arts is named after Wudang Mountain, but it's not saying that all those arts are literally from there. Tai chi, specifically, is not from Wudang. It's confusing, but not a contradiction. A bunch of Chinese martial arts got lumped under the Wudang category in the early 20th century, and the rest got lumped under Shaolin, and the names stuck. It doesn't really imply anything about the historical origins of each art (of course, since then, people have created origin myths to try to link the arts to the categories they're in, which doesn't help things). Hope that clears it up. Difference engine (talk) 23:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I found this confusing when Chen village style is supposed to have derived from the Shaolin temple, on the other hand Wudang has it's own Tai Chi form and is Taoist. Which is the more correct, is Tai Chi Shaolin or Wudang? Chuangzu (talk) 20:44, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
The article doesn't claim that the Chen village style is derived from the Shaolin temple per se, it just gives a variety of different scholars' views about what its possible influences are. But it's true that the Chen village is located very near the Shaolin temple, and a number of scholars have noted historical connections or similarities between tai chi and other arts including Shaolin. It makes sense that there would have been some cross-pollination between the two, but we don't know for sure. The Shaolin/Wudang categorization is a later development that tells us nothing about the actual history of the arts, so it's an entirely separate issue. If Wudang mountain wants to teach their own tai chi form, that's their business, but it doesn't mean there's a historical relationship. --diff (talk) 05:24, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

There is another contradiction in the article "Most modern styles of t‘ai-chi ch‘üan trace their development to at least one of the five traditional schools: Chen, Yang, Wu (Hao), Wu, and Sun." and yet further down the page it says "All existing styles can be traced back to the Chen-style, which had been passed down as a family secret for generations." Most styles is not the same as all styles, this is misleading. If Chen style was a family secret how can there be any verifiable documented evidence of its existence? If it was not taught openly then how can any independent sources have heard about it? Considering the suppression of history during the Cultural revolution 1966-1976 it's highly likely that there could be other Tai Chi teachers who were prevented from disseminating their styles. Wudang teach Tai Chi and they are not derived from Chen village style, also Lee style Tai Chi Ch'uan is from Shandong not Chen Village. The Chen village story is not the only historical origin of Tai Chi and the article should reflect this.Chuangzu (talk) 11:13, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that contradiction out. I fixed it by changing "all" to "most", since anybody can create a new tai chi style and choose not to base it on Chen style or its derivatives. As for historicity, like many Chinese martial arts, the early history of tai chi is poorly documented, but the five families from Yang Luchan onward taught publically, and their activities have been documented, photographed, etc. especially from the Guoshu Institute period onward. If you think there is strong evidence that other tai chi styles predate Yang Luchan going public with what he had learned of the Chen style, then present that evidence. Otherwise such styles must be regarded as later inventions. The article, at any rate, should reflect the scholarly consensus, which simply does not support what you are saying. --diff (talk) 04:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Look here[1], Wudang says they are the real Taoist T'ai Chi but were put down after the revolution. I learned a style called Lee-style t'ai chi ch'uan taught by Chee Soo. It originates from Shandong. Shandong was well known for the Boxer rebellion and was home to many sects and secret societies. In fact all over China secret societies taught martial arts and various other practices which were not open to the public and undocumented. Chee Soo wrote several books on the Taoist Arts he learned from a Chinese immigrant in 1930s London which were published by HarperCollins and translated into many languages around the world. He was also the subject of two BBC TV documentaries, a Movietone News documentary, an LBC radio interview, numerous magazine and newspaper articles, he was the fight arranger on The Avengers (TV series) cult TV show, he was even awarded a Guinness World Record for the fact that he brought kung fu before a western audience years before Bruce Lee and David Carradine. During the Cultural Revolution when Chen style was in the doldrums Chee Soo had clubs in many countries all over the world and thousands of students in the United Kingdom where he lived. A Tai Chi teacher Patrick Kelly came from Australia and visited Chee Soo's Qigong class in London in 1978 and published an account about it in his book Infinite Dao [2][3]. Even now twenty years after he died there are still a dozen schools teaching his style in Britain, also France and Germany, The Netherlands, and Australia, it's practised by an International Wushu Federation judge, recognised by the Weihai Wushu Association, by White Clouds Temple in Beijing[4] and is taught as part of an accredited course at Leeds Trinity University[5]. Research on this style is ongoing but there is enough prima facie evidence that it has it's origins in China and has enough characteristics that it is recognisable as a T'ai Chi style. It has eight basic techniques, it's soft, it's based on Taoism, it has partner exercises similar to pushing hands, it involves Qigong and includes the Dantian and Microcosmic orbit. I think it's time there was some room in this article for other T'ai Chi styles that are not based on the Chen village story. Otherwise it's starting to become a self fulfilling prophecy because Wikipedia is starting to define T'ai Chi as originating exclusively from Chen Village, but there is no conclusive evidence that this is a fact. Considering the almost universal recognition of the Taoist origins of T'ai Chi and the fact that Chen village is so close to the Shaolin temple isn't it at least possible that there may be other origins for T'ai Chi which have been undocumented in the upheavals since the end of the Qing dynasty? The Tao Teh Ching says "The Tao which can be spoken is not the true Tao". Lee style Tai Chi has its own page so surely it should have a mention here shouldn't it? Chuangzu (talk) 19:44, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
  1. ^ https://internalwudangmartialarts.com/2016/04/12/chen-tai-chi-is-not-the-oldest-tai-chi/
  2. ^ ISBN 9780473130497
  3. ^ http://worldwideway.ch/SAGE/PATRICKSTEACHERS/OTHERTEACHERS/cheesoo.html
  4. ^ https://lishi.org/tag/chee-soo/#abbot
  5. ^ https://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&q=Leeds+Trinity+University+Coaching+Lishi+Movement+&oq=Leeds+Trinity+University+Coaching+Lishi+Movement+&gs_l=serp.12...67952.82033.0.83443.3.3.0.0.0.0.217.532.0j1j2.3.0....0...1c.1j2.64.serp..0.2.425...30i10k1.wboNckEMaDM
With respect, come back when you have actual reliable sources. --diff (talk) 18:38, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Unbel;ievable. Chuangzu (talk) 21:03, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Removed unreferenced "Differences between Chen, Yang and Wu styles" section

This section was almost all inaccurate opinion. There are differences, but they should be reported on from sources. Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 04:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Hyphenation of the Wade-Giles spelling.

Although not well versed in any transcribing method for Chinese, I do recall that what is written as one word in Pinyin will be written as hyphenated syllables in Wade-Giles. Should the Wade-Giles be hyphenated, or does context tell us it is one word. Should it be T‘ai-chi-ch‘üan or T‘ai-chi ch‘üan or what? Does Wikipedia have a policy on hyphenation of Wade-Giles? 101.175.31.57 (talk) 02:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I will take the liberty of “correcting” all instances of unhyphenated “T‘ai chi.” Feel free to revert if you disagree, but please give some justification here. 101.175.31.57 (talk) 02:24, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
Today, only pinyin (taiji(quan), possibly with tone indicators) can be considered "correct" - but we write Tai chi (chuan) because that is far more common in non-specialist English language sources, and we should follow common usage. (As more specialist English language sources tend to use taiji(quan), one could argue we should so too, but that is not what is up for discussion right now.) Thus, I think the hyphens should be reverted. By the way, IMHO the accented Wade-Giles forms have imho only historical or liguistic relevance. --Nø (talk) 08:50, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
PS. Naming issues have been debated before - e.g. here: Talk:Tai chi/Archive_1#Romanization / Naming Revisited--Nø (talk) 08:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
This article is a mess. The name of the subject itself has at least 5 orthographic variations, not counting Chinese characters, on the page that I can see. Also, taking the 拳 out of the title was a mistake, IMO. Let's choose a version, I suggest the one with the highest search ranking, and make the changes so that there is at least that consistency. What do you say? Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 04:14, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
Fine with me. The subject name has been messed with so many times, enough to lose track of it. Keeping it consistent is of course important. However, which ranking to choose is difficult. For example a simple google search may give a lot of duplicates. Maybe a search ranking based on google books only? --VanBuren (talk) 18:24, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

"Health"

That tai chi is practiced and good for health is referred to 24 times in the current text. Not just (only) 3 times in the chapter that has the heading "Health", but many more times elsewhere in the article. Everytime somebody adds a paragraph or chapter it is mentioned again and again. It does not do much good to the article. Would it be possible to do a thorough clean up, streamline the text, and take all the duplicates out, and have just one good chapter on health? --VanBuren (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I would be into that. I think the page could use a dusting.TommyKirchhoff (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:07, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Pop Culture Section Removal

This section is not relevant to understanding what Tai chi is. It mostly is an arbitrary section specifically for advertising that has no functional limit to the number of references that could be added. These list type sections serve to do little other than junk up a page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bverji (talk • contribs) 02:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 January 2020 and 27 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Baosen19.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:40, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Joey Bond

I'm sure that Joey Bond is skilled at Taiji, but I would hardly list him under "famous practitioners" along with the founders of the art.

Thanks, ~~~ NorthWu (talk) 20:44, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Tai Chi without the fist

Sorry, but I must have missed when the name of the page changed to Tai Chi without chuan or quan (the boxing). The English name "Tai Chi" (specifically) can NEVER be the encyclopedic equivalent of "Tai Chi Chuan," the martial art, boxing style, or general form of western exercise. Tai Chi is a philosophy. The alternate page suggestion is also terrible as the "philosophy" points to a page called "Taji (phiiosophy)" I will crusade the Tai Chi page because must have in the name the boxing function chuan or quan... or boxing (ugh). "Tai Chi" alone means the Taoist creation philosophy, and the epoch that follows the nothingness of Wuji. It is the Yin/Yang symbol "Tajitu." It is the harmonized opposites that give birth to the four emblems. Tai Chi by itself cannot denote the exercise encyclopedically because Tai Chi means something else. It's fine to use Tai Chi in colloquial speech to connote the exercise or whatever people think it is. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 04:09, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

For one of many times this has been discussed before, see Talk:Tai chi/Archive 4#eb / Naming_Revisited.--Nø (talk) 07:40, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
That archive is from 2011. Where is the recent discussion? I know I looked at this page within the last couple months and it did not have just "Tai Chi" as the title. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 15:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
There's another from 2014 here: Talk:Tai chi/Archive 5#Page move. I believe the actual move is this edit [1]. I do not understand page moves in wikipedia well enough to be sure, but I don't think it has been moved since. Anyway, I have before supported a more "correct" naming of the article (including the fist, and preferably using pinyin), but the primary argument for "Tai chi" is that it is the most widespread designation used in English language text, and I guess that is true. Incidentally, I have repeatedly defended the view that the article on Pascal's triangle should be named thus exacly because it is the most common designation in English, and not renamed to reflect the facts that Pascal did not invent it and that it has different names in other languages (though those names are no more fair as they give credit to others who likewise did not invent it). This naming principle is enshrined in wikipedia's rules; what can be discussed is to what extent it is true that tai chi is the most common designation. But if I were to write a novel where tai chi was mentioned in passing - say, because the protagonist passed some strangers in a park doing tai chi - I'm pretty sure that's how I would write it, and how an editor would ask me to write it.--Nø (talk) 16:35, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
This page cannot be called "Tai Chi" for the same reason the Baguazhang cannot be named "Bagua." If you order Peking Duck that's what you have to call it; you can't just order Peking because you still want duck. Calling the martial art "Tai Chi" doesn't work when the foundational philosophy upon which the martial art is based is called Tai Chi. Differentiating the philosophy from the martial art by spelling one with pinyin and the other with the Wade-Giles just doesn't cut the mustard.TommyKirchhoff (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
WP:NAMINGCRITERIA criterion 3 is in support of your view, but WP:COMMONNAME, interpreting those five criteria, arguably supports "Tai chi". On the balance, I still think I personally would support a spelling of "Tàijíquán" (but accents, spaces, hyphens and transscription are negotiable), with redirects from other all other reasonable spellings of those three syllables, while spellings of only the first two syllables should redirect to the article on the philosophical concept - of course with a hat-note in the article on the concept to the article on the martial art. I guess we agree on that. What I'm saying is, last time this was up for discussion, after due process the opposite argument won the day, and I suspect it would again. But if you are prepared to argue your case, I think you should follow WP:RM#CM.--Nø (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I've pored over the naming guidelines and agree with your assessment of the Precision and Common Name criteria. I believe the best treatment might be parenthetical disambiguation, i.e. naming this page Tai Chi (exercise) and naming the philosophy page Tai Chi (philosophy). Some people might not like the exercise designation, but by calling it the common name the moniker would encompass the whole concept of martial arts, exercise for seniors, meditation, etc. Maybe changing both pages at the same time would require an administrator. Thoughts? TommyKirchhoff (talk) 15:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Thoughts... in a "packet solution" like that, it should also be clear what should be done with the 888 pages (namespace + portal + template + category pages, but not counting user, talk, draft or wp pages) that link either "tai chi" or "taiji (philosophy)". Most would be handled by a few judicious redirects, but these 11 pages Taiji, Tao Te Ching, Tai chi, Taijijian, Taiji (disambiguation), Tai chi (transclusion), Tai Chi Master (film), Taiji (philosophy), Taijijian, Taiji (philosophy), Taiji (disambiguation), and these 71 redirect pages TaiJiQuan, T'ai chi chuan, Tai Ji Quan, Tai Ji, Tai Chi, Taichi Chuan, T'ai chi, Tai ji, Tai chi ch'uan, Tài Jí Quán, Tai Chi Chüan, Taiji Quan, Tai-Chi, T'ai Chi, Taichi, Taijiquan (pinyin article), Tàijíquán (pinyin article), T'ai Chi Ch'üan (pin-yin article), T'ai-chi, Tao Chi, Taiji Chuan, Tàijíquán, Tai-chi Chuan, Tai Chi Ch'uan, T'ai-chi ch'uan, Thai Chi, Tai ji chuan, Tai Ji Chuan, T'ai-chi ch'üan, T'ai-chi Ch'üan, Taichichuan, T'ai Chi Ch'üan, T’ai Chi Chuan, Tai-chi, Tai Chi Quan, T'ai Chi Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan, T’ai-chi ch’uan, T’ai chi ch’uan, Tai Chi Chuean, T'ai-chi Ch'uean, T'ai Chi Ch'uan (pin-yin article), T'ai Chi Ch'uean (pin-yin article), T'ai-chi ch'uean, T'ai-chi Ch'uan, T'ai Chi Ch'uean, T'ai chi ch'üan, Tai qi, Taijiquan, Tàijí, Tai Chi Ch'üan, Tai chi chuan, T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Tai Chi Chu'An, Tài jí quán, Tai ji quan, Tài jí, Tài Jí, T'aichi, Tàijí quán, Tàijí Quán, Taiji quan, Tai chi chüan, T'aichi ch'üan, T'aichi Ch'üan, T'aichi ch'uan, T'aichi Ch'uan, Taichi chüan, Taichi Chüan, Taichi chuan, Taichichüan may require attention. (Yes, this is kind of absurd!)--Nø (talk) 19:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Wow, yeah. I certainly see your point. I had not considered the breadth of the mission, but now I grasp it. This is a big job but somebody's got to do it. Would you back me on common name with parenthetical disambiguation for both the martial arts page and the philosophy? We can recruit power for this, ride herd, and see that it all gets cleaned up. TommyKirchhoff (talk) 06:24, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Frankly, I don't much like parenthetical disamiguation, though of course sometimes it may be the only or best alternative. I think naming the articles "Taiji" (for the concept) and "Tajiquan" (for the exercise) make good sense; I just don't expect them to get through the process... I think I will neither support nor oppose your suggestion - but I may change my mind, e.g. if other editors come up with new arguments or solutions.
Ha ha ha, I see that every so often, someone comes along and sees that the common misspell being used as the defacto standard, just doesn't sit right. I remember back during the big discussions where I championed Taijiquan and eventually had the page moved to it, only to later see others from other areas of WP arrive to announce the contributors as having a walled garden around the topic and it was eventually reverted. Alas, I should say that splitting it into two or more parts is probably going to make for a bad precedent, as references to taijiquan are to the same thing, only different perspectives of it. Thus splitting will go against this fact and create ambiguity about which other lines could see it split further, until the fragmentation does damage to the accessibility & integrity of the overall subject; something I understand to be in contradiction to the logical point of WP. I'd say it's best to maintain a single page, and as I said before, since Pinyin is the current standard and it should logically contain "fist" for accuracy, then "Taijiquan", but again, it will be contested because the erronous form is more known. :-/ InferKNOX (talk) 20:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
To give a little extra jab at this topic; I find there to be a certain degree of absurdity to having redirects that can work to guide people from technically incorrect terms (like "Tai Chi"), to accurate information (and thus educate them, seemingly part of the point/intent of WP), instead follow the policy of directing to the common, (and even) incorrect term. This works to undermine WP's credibility and understandably so. For example, there's the common mistake of calling 8P8C connectors, RJ45 connectors, does that mean that on WP, a current standard should be overriden in favour of the deprecated standard it is mistakenly named by? Another example is that many less tech savy people call Internet connectivity, "WiFi", and "Ethernet", "Internet". Does that mean that Internet, Ethernet, LTE, 5G and the rest of the network connectivity pages should instead redirect to the WiFi page? It's illogical, and with good reason. What is correct, is correct, and the rest is misinformation, which rigidly adhering to such a WP policy, is further propagating here. Instead of bringing information into concert for common & accurate understanding of a topic, it is entrenching the divide between the facts recognised by the professionals and the uncertainty of the laymen. As a hypothetical example, it would be as though, because many people are going in a wrong direction, towards an incorrect destination, that destination automatically becomes regarded the correct destination where they want to, and should, go to; and those that actually went to the correct destination, should reroute. Honestly, where is the critical thinking is all of this? — InferKNOX (talk) 06:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
As perhaps an indication of common usage (name), Google Translate transliterates 太极拳 as "Tàijí quán" but translates it as "Tai Chi". – •Raven  .talk 01:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
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