Talk:Terra de Miranda

Mirandese nationality or ethnicity

Miranda is the land of the mirandese nation. The mirandese people have a different languague and culture to the portuguese people, is a different nationality. Miranfree 14:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Shame on you!!! I’m from Miranda (son from Caçarelhos, probably more mirandese than you’ll ever be) and I have the culture of “mi tierra” and “do meu país”. Miranda is beautiful without people like you. By the way the "lhéngua mirandesa" is a variation of the Asturian language, whether you like it or not. I speak both. Miranda is inside Portugal - a fact that you’ll have to live with! Miranda needs to shine a bit more but never with this separatist silly attitudes. It happens the same with "Pais leonés", "nación asturiana", north Italy, Madeira, etc. Miranda ye la mi tierra mas Portugal é o meu país/nação - para todos!!! Transl.:(in miranda language)Miranda is my land (portuguese) but Portugal is my nation/country. One must help to spread Miranda and all its glory, tradition and culture throughout the world, without having foolish attitudes. I believe you are from another country, in another planet – that I’m sure. DON'T SPEAK FOR ALL MIRANDESES, you are NOBODY to do it and nobody gave you the right to do so. Most of us, with regret, don't live in Miranda but help the family and the town monthly with money!!!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.152.252.189 (talk • contribs)

Yes, this individual tried to pass this idiocy in several articles - he was dealt with and no longer "lives here". By the way, everybody concluded that he was not even Portuguese and Mirandese, but most probably a Spanish Asturian or Leonese lunatic. There's all sorts...! The Ogre (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing discution at Talk:Portugal#Mirandese_nationality

The Mirandese people the people speak a different languague to the portuguese people. The mirandese people have all the characteristic of a nationality, land, history and languague. In the Republic of Portugal there are two different nationalities, the Portuguese and the Mirandese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.60.183.104 (talk • contribs)

Well, there a people in Madeira an Açores than doens´t feel portugueses, but they don´t have a different languague. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.60.183.104 (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

This is a complete and total fabrication! There are no feelings of ethnic differentiation in Miranda! I dont even think this unregistered editor should be taken seriously. Or else he is an anonimous vandal. Even if he is from Miranda do Douro, which I doubt, he is probably the only one that thinks the Mirandese are a different nationality or ethnic group. His edits are infatile and he doesn't understand that an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is! His matter of fact statements, unsupported by any source, show he has no understanding of the social and cultural processes envolved in ethnico-political differentiation. His edits should be treated as vandalism. If he has a case for his statements he should bring it forward in the talk pages before writing such delusions on the multiple articles where he has been adding them. The Ogre 00:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, people in Madeira and the Azores do feel Portuguese, they just know the obvious - they are not from Lisbon. And some of them do have a political-budgetary conflict with the central state, but not with their Portuguese identity or even the integraty of the national state.The Ogre 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, why doesn't User:83.60.183.104 register? That seems to me as a desire of t escape proper wikipedia discussion procedures and accountability. The Ogre 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course we are not a different race, we are white like the most of the people of Pertual but he mirandese have the characteristic of a nationality like Catalonia in Espanha. We have our costumes, we have our languague, this is true and we are working to recover the national identity of the Mirandese. Wikipedia must be neutral and recognize that there are two different nationality in the Republic of Portugal, Portuguese and Mirandese. Miranfree 14:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't speak about what you don't know: the situation in Catalonia - it's not comparable! In nothing! I'm not living near Miranda but what would we live from if Miranda was independant, a nation? Of wallnuts, bulls, eat culture? And where would we have the airport, in Pinelo? Get a live.

Where did you find such nonsense? It certainly wasn't in a reference encyclopedia, history book, or the Portuguese law. Provide your (reliable) sources, please. Page Up 16:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The mirandes people is different to the portuguese: A source: Ethnologue. Language (Mirandese people) use Official regional language. A folklore group is promoting the language and culture. The language has been introduced into the schools. It is sometimes used in court. Comments The people have a different style of dress from their neighbors (black, handwoven cloth). Agriculturalists: wheat, potatoes, oil; wine producers; animal husbandry: sheep, cattle; commerce. Miranfree 17:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Miranfree, I think what you have called "nationality" could be best described as "culture". It is certainly true that the region of Miranda has a language and a culture of its own (though the Mirandese also speak Portuguese; they are bilingual). However, the same is true, if perhaps to a somewhat lesser extent, of other regions of Portugal, like the Azores or Minho. There is certainly no officially recognized "nationality" for Miranda or the Mirandese, the way there is, for instance, for the automonous communities of Spain. In fact, the Portuguese Constitution explicitly prohibits regional parties. Regards. FilipeS 23:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Miranfree, I see you have registered. Good. It means, I suppose, that you are serious in your purposes, and not a mere vandal. Now... regarding your opinion that the inhabitants of Miranda do Douro are a different nationality or ethnic group from the rest of the Portuguese, I have two types of comment:

1. Methodological, regarding what an encyclopedia should be. Methodologicaly, yours is not a correct approach to writing in an encyclopedia. You see, when there is no consensus, and respecting the NPOV rule of wikipedia (see: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one" and this must be done "representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source". You have not done so. Furthermore, and I do know the literature and reality about national identity in Portugal (namely sociological, antropological and historical), I have no knowledge of any source presenting the Mirandese as a different ethnic group or nationality. So... you look like an isolated individual defending something nobody else says, namely the Mirandese. You just blumtly state that the Mirandese are a different nationality because they speak a different language (and what does "speak" mean? check these statistics) - this, as I shall elaborat in the next paragraph, is invalid, but, even more important given the fact that you are the only source for such a statement, is not sufficient for an encyclopedia! Imagine I decided to write in the article about God, that God exists because I believe in it (or maybe evem some more people...). Then someone would decide to blank me and write that God does not exist because he or she does not believe in it! That is why the article must present all reliably sourced points of view, stating that these people think this and those people think that. Do you understand? I reppeat, an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is!
2. Substantive, regarding the de facto statements you present about the Mirandese. Substantively, your statements, besides unsourced, are basic (therefore rapidly refutable) and just plain wrong. Do understand me. I have nothing against the Mirandese and, personally, I don't give a dam if their are to be a different national or ethnic group or not! If that's what they whant to be - fine by me! But the fact is that I have never read that statement anywhere, there are no political movements or organizations deffending that position and I strongly believe that if you ask the Mirandese if they are Portuguese or not, they'll say they are Portuguese - they are Portuguese from Miranda, with particular cultural traits, traditions and linguistic heritage. Even the official site of the Câmara Municipal is in Portuguese, not Mirandese, the whole history section clearly states the integration of Miranda in Portuguese history, society and culture, and there is only a very small reference to the Mirandese language. Even a site as the one about Mirandese language by the Linguistics Center of the Classical Univerty of Lisbon (Sítio de I Mirandés), that clearly means to deffend the language and the cultural traditions of Miranda, never presents the Mirandese as a different ethnic or national group. Of course the Mirandese have"a language and a culture of its own", as FilipeS said, so do many other inhabitants of other regions of Portugal (if I say "Ú grade azoigou e foi átupir na manta das tanerifas" do you understand me? Well it's a phrase in the variety of the Portuguese language spoken in Madeira, albeit very archaic; in fact only in the Madeira and the Azores have ever had separatist movements, and their reasoning, mind you, was never one of cultural differentiation, but of geographical differentiation and political antipaty to the left-wing predominace in continental Portugal during the revolucionary process - do you, by any chance, know the literature about this?). That does not make them an ethnic group or a nationality (as you can see in the respective articles, these are not simple problematics...) - there are many nations that have internal ethnic and linguistic differentation, on the other hand there are different nations that share ethnic, cultural and linguitic heritage. And you even mention Race! By Endovelicus! Do you even know what you are talking about? Even if I could accept, and I can not, the implicits in your statement about Whites and Blacks (even in Talk:Mirandese language#Ethnic group), that is to say, the simplist way in which you speak about such complex concepts, let me tell you that there are also nations that have internal racial differentiation and different nations that have the same racial make up!

Concluding... my friend, and I shall assume that you are not ill intended, the Mirandese are not a different ethnicity or nationality. And by the way, I'm not a "salazarianism", as you accused me in my talk page (what you wrote is close to bashing - see Wikipedia:No personal attacks - and propaganda - your name, Miranfree, is already a political demand: "We speak a different language, we have our costumes, we are a different nationality. Stop to the portugueses salazarianism. Respect to the mirandese nationality."). Please stop your unfounded statements and edits. Thank you. The Ogre 02:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TheOgre, but I would remind everyone that nation is also a problematic word. In Portugal, it's normally used as a synonym of state, but in many multicultural/multiethnic countries, such as Spain or the United States, "nation" is used in a more ethnic sense. FilipeS 12:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

That´s the idea. The state of the Republic of Pertual is not a homogenic countrie. There are two cultures, two comunities, two nationalities: the portuguese and the mirandese with two diferent languague. This article show recognise this diversity. This is the democratic idea, respect the minorities and is to much traditional betwen the portuguese don´t respect the mirandese minority.Miranfree 13:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Problems and suggestions:

• "Nation" is a problematic word in a Portuguese context. We don't really use it, as I've noted.
• If you're going to mention Miranda's ethnic specificities in an article on Portugal, then you'd have to do the same for the specificities of the Azores, Madeira, Galicia, Minho and Trás-os-Montes, Algarve, and so on. Come to think of it, there is also an article for Terra de Miranda — why not expand it, and discuss Mirandese culture there? There could be a link to it in the main article on Portugal. FilipeS 13:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

OMG. This is why wikipedia has serious issues being accepted, it is full of lunatics. 500 farmers spread in different villages don't make a nation, and even if they see they speak a language, they also feel their village language is different from other village language. Portugal has diverse peoples, it always had, but not nationalities. I don't know why you loose time with these people. I had my time with one of these lunatics. Even Chinese is much more spoken in Portugal than Mirandese. Miranfree procura um psiquiatra. E, quanto aos restantes não percam tempo com estas barbaridades, pois não tem fundamento nenhum estar a discutir fantasias pessoais. Só ajudam o moço a ficar mais louco que o que já é. --Pedro 15:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Filipes, you argue with good manners. I know that "nation" is problematic in the portuguese languague now, but this is because in the Portuguese Republic there is a tradition o repression to the minorities. Was a reality the punishment to the boys that talk in Mirandès in the school and thats because a lot of people lost his languague. The portuguese people should accept that there is a minority that have his own costumes and his own languague and is different, the republic is not a state-nation, is a state multicultural. Is Portugal and Pertual. What´s wrong with this? Is the portuguese don´t like the mirandese people, be clear. we don´t want more repression to our people, thi is the Europe of the XXI century.Miranfree 15:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

From Schizophrenia: Schizophrenia (from the Greek word σχιζοφρένεια, "split mind") is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental disorder characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality and by significant social or occupational dysfunction. A person experiencing schizophrenia is typically characterized as demonstrating disorganized thinking, and as experiencing delusions or hallucinations. main article: Schizophrenia --Pedro 15:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pedro não digas asneiras. Miranfree 15:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pedro, you need to reread Wikipedia:Wikiquette.

Miranfree, I regret that Mirandese was repressed in the past, but that was not done by any Portuguese Republic. It was done by an authoritarian regime which has since been overthrown. Now, we live in a democracy, which has officially recognized Mirandese as an independent language. Please note that this is more than the Astur-Leonese languages on the other side of the border ever got.

I think it's great that there are more Mirandese in Wikipedia, and look forward to your contributions. The articles on Terra de Miranda, Miranda do Douro and Mirandese language are still a little lacking, and it would be great if you could help to improve them. I see no problem with adding, for example, a list of links to the Portugal article, or, perhaps better, to the article on the Demographics of Portugal, pointing to each of the regional cultures in our country. I just think it can't be limited to Mirandese culture versus "Portuguese" culture. There are many other regional traditions in Portugal. FilipeS 15:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Filipe Miranfree 16:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

• 1st. A rule of wikipedia is assuming good faith, and obviously he is not assuming good faith, he is trying to make in Portugal what occurred in Spain during the Franco regime.
• 2nd Filipe is no one to teach me the rules of wikipedia.
• 3rd Miranfree is not Portuguese, nor Mirandese, nor from Madeira (which he also claimed he was), he is just playing with your lack of intelligence. Everyone in Madeira and Miranda do Douro feel Portuguese and belonging to the Portuguese nation (obviously).
• 4rd, What he told of Mirandese is in fact what happened with Galicians, Catalans and the Basque (Being beaten in school just for speaking their languages). That did not occur in Portugal. Besides no one in the city of Miranda speaks Mirandese only a few elderly in a couple of villages speaks Mirandese. Only one of those villages is almost fully Mirandese.
• 5th Filipe showed great ignorance about his own country (and Spain). There's no Mirandese identity besides the local (town or Parochial) identity which is common throughout Northern Portugal. Portugal is a nation-state, even if it has rich local cultures. in fact, it is because of these local cultures, and the lack of regional identities which makes Portugal a nation-state. I recommend Filipe a visit to Miranda do Douro, it will make him good. --Pedro 23:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I never claimed that I am from Madeira. Stop to the intoxication and false things. The mirandese people that speak his own languague is more than 15000. You can see the external links. Obviusly you don´t know Miranda and you don´t respect my people. Wat´s wrong be different? What´s wrong to have our own culture?. If Portugal is a nation-state with only one languague and only one culture, obviusly the Mirandese aren´t portuguese, but you choose, not us. Miranfree 10:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

==

Flag o Tierra de Miranda.

File:Flagvaledemiranda.png

Flag of Terra de Miranda

I add pictures from Terra de Miranda and a unnoficial flag NON-SEPARATIST with the colours that are admit for the mirandese people. I add the name of terra de Miranda (Tierra de Miranda) in his native languague, mirandese. Revert a edition without discusion or say that other wikipidist is a lunatic, the words that was used by The Ogre is vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miranfree (talk • contribs)

The old PoV pusher is back again. This flag is a complete and total fabrication by Miranfree. Nobody else knows about it, there are no sources, and no movements, organizations or cultural associations that use it. Only Miranfree uses it. I could also invent a flag for some land and claim that it is real - but this can not be accepted in Wikipedia. This user, Miranfree, has a strange political agenda without any contact with reality whatsoever. There is no flag for the Terras de Miranda - this name is just a non official designation for a certain area in Portugal, that never had any type of administrative existence. There is no flag. Miranfree, stop your lonely POV agenda! The Ogre 13:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)