Talk:The Matrix Online/Archive 1

RuneScape

Is this supposed to be kinda like RuneScape? --daunrealist 1 July 2005 02:52 (UTC)

I dont think this game can be comapred to RuneScape since they are completely different types of games, aside from rpg elements. RuneScape has characters and combat like mxo has, but mxo is all 3d and massively multiplayer and RuneScape is topdown rpg. Go to gamespot.com or 1up.com and do some research.

Are you kidding me? RuneScape is a MMORPG! Duh! Can anybody please clarify and answer my question better?

MxO is a 3D MMORPG. It has basic concepts that are true to most MMO's such as character creation, levels, abilities, factions and turn based combat. The major difference between MxO and many other MMOs is the story line as continued via the live events in game. Additionally there is an in-game buddy list powered by AIM that makes keeping track of friends much easier and is accessible outside of the game when signed in with your character name into AIM. A nice feature that I've never seen in an MMO. Hope that helps. --Jenn 8/9/05

Yeah, thanks. Maybe I should get it. --daunrealist 02:51, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Edit

Deleted the POV statement Combat is where MxO excels, this statement has no place in wiki, however if a source(s) claims that players very much enjoy the combat system then add it. However, I have heard from many many people and articles that combat is the weakest part in the game, and has been criticized by many. Theres no need for me to add this to the description though.

Newest event

The most recent MxO event has been over a long period of time rather than simply being focused on a specific time period. It also had no definitive beginning. How should it be listed? ShadowMan1od 06:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

events should be listed by the cinematic they correspond to. Nightfall and Race for the One do not have cinematics, but should still be mentioned.

Ehn...there are even instances where it seems to me like hairs have been split when they shouldn't have been. Somebody who actually plays the game needs to overhaul the Major Events section, no? Adam Marx Squared 00:23, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The events do not always correspond to the cinematics. As a regular player, I think the current state of the story summary section is adequate and accurate. Most of the names of those sections for the story summary came from the live event titles back when the game had a dedicated Live Events Team to create events, which often didn't correspond to any given cinematic (like the Nightfall event). Also, the story is progressing at a approximately half the expected speed, which accounts for the length of time that some of the events have taken to resolve (like the recent Unlimit happenings). NDale 07:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Rumors

I removed some things from the rumors section that have been confirmed. The Assassin was an old recycling program that escaped deletion. The Assassin is dead now as well. ShadowMan1od 03:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Now I understand. Yeah, logical enough. Adam Marx Squared 20:01, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

What does this mean?

The article states that the game had

sold only 43,100 copies (with 33,100 being zion) as of June 2005

(my emphasis). What does this mean? The term "zion" is not defined anywhere in the article: is it an in-game reference?

—Phil | Talk 10:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Zion is one of the three organizations joinable in the game. Being the ones who want to free humanity, they are generally considered the "good guys," which most players want to be.

LoL musta been some angry merv or machine who typed that up...their isnt that many zion :P

What does this mean too?

Another oddity in the "Race to find the One" portion of the Major events section: What on earth does this sentence mean? "Shapers were found the could maniputate the rsi fragments into the shape of Neo's mental projection." Someone who knows more should re-work that. Thanks. badmonkey 12:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Shapers were red/bluepills that could manipulate code in the Matrix - they were Dev or LESIG-controlled characters that each organisation were trying to bring to their own side, so that the collected Fragments of Neo's RSI could be recreated into the One.

this was waaaay before lesig so the shapers where dev controlled. it was basicly an mmo version of capture the flag by shaking hte shapers hand and returning it to the base (subway)

Neo's RSI is currently in a Fight Club basement somewhere in the International District.

Baku 14:53, 22 November 2006

I thought it was Westview, Gracy Heights. Or is it different on the three servers?--Carpcarp 15:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It is in Gracy Heights, Westview, at the bottom of a the fight club located there.NightTrace 20:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Fansite vanity?

It seems half of the External Links are links to random fansites. While I agree with the IGN link as it is a rather well established gaming and information site, the rest seem to just be vanity sites. You can easily find fansites through the official MxO page and forums. I'm going to delete them for now. If anyone has any major objections and would like to revert, please comment. FallenAngelEyes 23:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Some of the content of this wikipedia page resembles a fansite and I have tagged those sections as such in the article 71.30.130.253 17:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I respectively disagree. I've removed the tag from the storyline summary, but left it on rumors, critism, and lag.--Viridis 20:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Can I remove this?

Anyone object to removing this line:

The Matrix Online is as close to an Action-MMOG as any manufacturer has come.

Aside from being ambiguous, there was an Action MMOG out long before mxo, Planetside.

It should be removed Adam Marx Squared 04:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Missing definitions

The article uses a lot of acronyms with no proper definition. SOE is probably Sony Online Entertainment but it us best to use ...Sony Online Entertainment (SOE)... RSI is not defined either. I guess it is not Repetitive Stress Injury but still... And how about adding it to the RSI disambiguation page?

I was pretty sure it expressly noted RSI as referring to Residual Self-Image. Anybody who's watched the movies knows that, anyway! Adam Marx Squared 23:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Not everyone has watched the movies. And seeing RSI for the first time, I wouldn't know either. Another definition that's missing is redpill. It would be good to explain exactly what this means, such as "People who have voluntarily left the matrix and seen the real world". I was going to say that they joined the resistance, but I haven't played the game and I can't be sure of whether everyone fights against the machines.--72.70.53.87 22:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You're correct, not everyone who is a redpill is a rebel, since only one third of them are Zionites, and even the Zionites are not all involved in any kind of resistance movement. Also, I agree that RSI should be defined, since the initialism was never used in the films, only the term "residual self-image." NDale 07:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I linked the first time RSI is mentioned to Residual self image--Viridis 00:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Matrixism

Is this site serious. And can someone explain the caption that goes with it.

- Sounds like a crackpot with too much free time. If you want to mix The Matrix with religion, your best bet is to follow Gnosticism; of which the Matrix series is an allegory of (listen to http://www.gnosis.org/Matrix.ram for more information). Also, this link has nothing to do with MxO other than the fact that the author states he was repeatedly banned from the MxO forums for promulgating his "religion." Villemar

- Removed the Link again. Getting sick of removing his crap that he posts here aswell. There is no valid reference To The Matrix Online and thus should be removed

- Matrixism actually comes up on a Google search for "wicole censta" which is one of the hidden keywords from MxO. Could be that matrixism is one of the game's ARG's.

- Yet the actual website is not relevent to the matrix online. Despite the fact it may contain a keyword it is not revelent to the game. If i see this again i think i am just going to report the ip address

Pay To Play?

Is The Matrix Online a Pay to Play game like Ragnarok Online? Or is it a "retail-purchase, then no more fees" game like Guild Wars?

The Matrix Online is pay to play. The subscription runs about $15 dollars a month. You can also order three month packages for less, I belive. You don't need to buy a physical copy of the game. It is downloadable, then you just pay the monthly fees. Villemar

I am quite sure that you have to pay for the download, too. Sure you can download a fully functional Trial Version, but you would need a key from a bought game after your trial period runs out. I might be mistaken, though.--Carpcarp 15:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Unverified statements

I noticed some unsourced statements that seem typical of a disgruntled player in the article, so I took the liberty of removing them. Reasons mainly being: 1) they do not contribute much, beyond giving a vague sense that the game is somehow going downhill 2) they seem rather farfetched, how or why would a commercial game suddenly change to being "run by the players"? If someone wishes to research this and can verify that this indeed has happened, feel free to reinclude them. The additions were made by an anonymous user who by the time of this writing has no other contributions. --80.221.135.214 22:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

What was the nature of the claim that the game is currently "run by the players?" In a sense, that's accurate. With the layoff of the live events team last year, the development team recruited a group of players to help plan and perform live events. The players in the group never play major film characters, but they are often on the same crew and are often seen along side them. You're right that such a claim doesn't belong on the page and is likely just someone who's disgruntled with the current state of the game. NDale 08:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

This would also have been a reference to the fact that the moderation team of the official forums for MxO is comprised of entirely players. These people are picked from the community for various reasons [positive connections to current mods, repeated submitters of forum violations, etc]. This has lead many to become disgruntled because their posts/threads/forum privlages are being removed/modified by other players. However, you are correct that in this case it would not fit on this entry, and should have been removed.NightTrace 21:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Article needs cleaning up, and probably updating as well. There are lots of grammatical mistakes; for example there are mixed and muddled tenses in the section describing the May 2006 events. Packersh 22:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• Just my two cents as a user: The article is almost entirely incomprehensible and could stand a major rewrite. I'd volunteer to do it, but I don't know anything about The Matrix Online (which is, of course, why I came here in the first place).68.70.88.63 09:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
• Maybe the "Major Events" section should be to be renamed "Storyline" or "Plot Summary", since the events are no longer particularly major and don't have official names anymore. The plot summary should probably be shortened into a few paragraphs that cover the basics, like in the Metal Gear Solid article. One Star Bandit 05:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I changed the "Major Events" section to "Storyline Summary" due to the facts brought up by One Star Bandit. I would like to change / add a few things but other than the basic editing, I don't know/can't figure out how to do it.

Lack of Objectivity

I find it interesting that although other game titles have included the controversy regarding the business models, implementations and strategies of the companies who run these games (Such as Star Wars Galaxies, amongst others), this entry does not; although it received many critical reviews from third party entities.

It seems that this Wikipedia article is lacking in objectivity, and I will be noting this to Wiki.

I think SOE taking charge, the change in Live Event structure, and the "Champagne Room" all need mentions. ShadowMan1od 23:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

  Ok I can see the 1st two bot the champagne room had nothing to do with SOE.  That was a bad decision in naming by a forum mod - Lazaros

SOE taking charge is already mentioned, the change to the LESIG model of live events doesn't really matter all that much to non-players, and... please. MxO has at least one dumb drama fiasco a month, the Champagne Room doesn't deserve even a passing mention. I'm not trying to sweep it under the rug, but it was predominantly the community's fault for overreacting. I wasn't even in the group and I didn't think the name sounded elitist, I actually thought it was very fitting. NDale 08:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not a Wiki on Drama, thus really shouldn't include those controversies, but if someone can objectively write something, I'd be all for seeing it. As that hidden forum room or Sony's faults as a whole with MMO's. The Champagne room really doesn't deserve a mention, While the dropping of Live events, what was heavily billed as a buying point for MxO should be mentioned. (maybe I'll write something up on that)

As for LESIG, I think it should also get a mention. It's impact on the MMO especially, and use it as a reference point for other games to look at. --~XHideoNinja 19:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Generic Story Page?

I think that this should be a generic story page and should mention that you can go to the official website to get fansite links for more information as there are many out there that specialize in everything about the game. I think that this page should just be updated by people that play the game with information that directly relates to the story when new information is available. I think that was the original idea that the original creator had in mind. What do you think?

I disagree. This is still a game, just like anything else, and it deserves background on game mechanics and other such trivia. Even the pages for the films contain more than just a story summary. There are plenty of fansites that have more in-depth story summaries; WikiPedia should be for a more general description of the game. NDale 08:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The 'Wiki' External Link

I think the link to the "Matrix Online Community Wiki" should be removed... as it is not a Matrix Online Community Wiki, but a Matrix Online Community Wiki. Subtle difference.

(In other words, it has nothing to do with the game. It's a Wiki for the online fanbase.)--MythicFox 14:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Metacortex

The ARG metacortex, has nothing to do with MxO, and has been removed from this wiki.

Cleanup?

What about this wiki needs "cleanup"? Give me some directions and I'll be happy to do it. Z~

Don't see what needs to be 'cleaned up' on it. It meets all of Wiki's guidelines and is pretty neutral. Suggestions from others would be welcomed I guess. -HN

Seems fine to me, but it's basically intro, story, and rumors. We could talk more about the game's mechanics, classes, and features (ie-loading abilities instead of being stuck with what you choose).--Viridis 21:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

If I had to make sugeestions the article could be reworked like this:

Development/History

Gameplay

Missions

Classes

Live Events

Storyline (possibly shortened or on it's own page)

Community

Reactions

Just to start, with more as we go along. This is pretty much what other games have, I looked around to brainstorm. It's odd that all the MxO article has is the Storyline, even though that's a big part of the game.--Viridis 10:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I've moved everything from In this game you can join one of three organizations. They are... on into a gameplay section. I don't know enough to make a History section or anything else.--Viridis 10:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and polished up the first part of the Gameplay section. Some of it might fight better in the Organizations subsection, though. NDale 22:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Storyline definetly needs its own page, but I cut down on alot of the lengthy sections in it. The only lengthy section in the whole Storyline page should be the Hunt for Morpheus chapters, because it details a major and well-recognized character.

External Link

The comments in the article said to suggest it here first. The MxO Archive seems to be a good one to add. How about it?--Viridis 10:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

No opposition, so I'm adding it.--Viridis 19:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Adding a link to thematrix.rumbaar.net as it is an official MxO Data Node. 71.215.128.75 11:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Show proof that these links are official, or from a notable authoritative source. Otherwise they have no place in an encyclopedia--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 17:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Those recognised on the official website: http://thematrixonline.station.sony.com/players/links.vm

Rumbaar in particular has been an official DN since the game first launched. http://www.mxoarchive.net/archives/dn1/thematrixonline.warnerbros.com/web/live/links/fansites.html

And was even recoginised in the game's storyline as the name of the site of Morpheus' death http://www.thematrix.rumbaar.net/modules/MxO_Sentinel/07_01_05/index.html

Also, following your logic, linking to the vastly out of date and abandoned MxO Vault is more valid than linking to a perfectly up to date, informative link just because it isnt 'official'.

Rumbaar is mentioned as the name of a location in the game, no mention of the site itself is made. And FYI, almost every game company has a list of fansites, it does not make them "official." They are still fansites. If you start letting fansites in then you have to allow a link to every fansite under the sun, or establish some absurd and trivial rules regarding what qualifies. Thanks for pointing out the vault issue, if thats so bad it probably shouldn't be there either. In the interest of compromise I probably wouldn't object too strongly if http://thematrixonline.station.sony.com/players/links.vm were to be used as it gets the same thing done, but picking fansites to go up there is just baseless fanboyism. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 00:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, adding it now. Seems a nice trio to have actually, the website, the forums and the list of fansites.

Criticism

This really should have been talked about here first. Can someone who plays the game regularly evaluate the new section and make sure it's NPOV?--Viridis 08:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I tried posting this on the SOE page multiple times, but apparently, some user constantly deleted it. Dibol 18:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm the assertions made in criticism as true, essentially in their entirety (I do not know exact figures myself) as I was an active member on the forums and in the game during the transition. It would be nice to see direct citing but SOE did their usual stellar job of squashing all complaints on any page they controll.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 17:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I too can confirm the assertions made in criticism as true, as I had played the game since April 2005 (the end of the Nightfall event). These problems are still constantly talked about the forums as of now. Dibol 4:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised no one mentioned criticism of the LESIG team and the player moderators who are widely considered to be bias and unfair.

Problem is that all of the topics containing these complaints keep getting freaking deleted, and citing the sources is impossible. Dibol 18:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Wiki is not the place to stage your personal complaints or squabbles, especially without cited sources. Keep it to places designed for this kind of feedback and out of an encyclopedia. The LESIG program and associated critisms are however valid and will receive a clean up of obvious ranting in due course. --172.141.169.53 21:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I am the one responsable for placing the information in regards to the LESIG as well as adding information about the SOE critisims and I have noticed that, despite the fact that they were sited, information was still removed and comments of why they were removed include such things as that I was trolling and what not. I can assure the people who are in charge of this wiki that was not my intention. I played MXO for nearly three years and left due to lack of interest. I became aware of this page and endevoured to update it, but it seems that certain individuals who do not want the ignorant to know about the less then ideal actions and events of the game and its developers have completely removed all negative comments (Is it not Wikipedia's mission to be an Encylopedia? How can you be an encylopedia when you fail to provide all the information and only cherry pick what you consider ideal?) in regards to what has happened to the game and in the game during its time. Finally, I am aware of the fact that a majority of the sitings came from the DN1 forums, however considering this is a game such information is not available anywhere else. If this is a problem for those who control this page I apologize, but in all honesty such information needs to be included if you wish to provide the complete picture of this whole subject. Regards, DigitalSaber

The problems and criticisms with the lesig program are still covered, just in a much more enclylopedic neutral manner. Highlighting larger issues and criticisms is fine just so long as it's not wholely bias or point of viewed. --172.212.75.177 19:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticisms that I included were such things as why the head of the customer service representatives was holding "trivia" nights were completely removed as well as everything else in regards to developer, LESIG, and CSR conduct, most of which can be found on the forums, were removed. I can understand the need to keep an encyclopedic and neutral position on wiki pages, but removing the above mentioned casts the game in a false light and can even be considered bias in itself due to the fact or not mentioning some rather large breaches in conduct by those in charge of said game. DigitalSaber

I'd have to agree with DigitalSaber on this. Other than the forum links, there is no other source of information that covers the controversial issues on the game, as the developers are in a sense supposed to be tight-lipped about such issues no thanks to the SOE management. From what I have seen, there were at least five paragraphs dedicated to the criticisms, actually cited a sources of information to show that this stuff wasn't written out of someone's ass, and it got removed. If message board topics from the official forums are not considered sources of information, what the hell is? An average reporter wouldn't even have the time to investigate these problems and write it up for a gaming magazine. Dibol

The following are portions of the critisims that were removed that I feel need to be reinstated. I have taken the time to site -multiple- sources, both forum and website. If no one objects within the next few days I will replace the critisms listed below.

In 2006-2007 it was discovered that "Public Relations" Raijinn had created a secret forum known as the champagne room (His excuse for the name being that he wanted to keep things interesting) with the original purpose of gaining feed back from key players. However it was leaked that these key players were being given preferential treatment and allowed to ask for the admittance of others into this hidden room. The leaked information was publicly revealed on the general forums and those responsible were given the choice of either informing the admin's of who the leak was or be banned. Choosing not to reveal their leak, the individuals who revealed the existence of the sub forum were banned, though this was later reversed due to public out cry. In now removed threads, Raijinn was seen publiclly flaming players in regards to this whole situation. This incident has become known in the MXO community as "The Champagne room".

http://mmorpg.qj.net/category/The-Matrix-Online/cid/801 http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/posts/list.m?topic_id=10400147113 http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/posts/list.m?topic_id=10400147864

CSR-Brewko, Senior Game Master in charge of the handling of petitions, and well known in most SOE controlled games as being "Ban stick happy" has recently begun hosting "Matrix Trivia Contests" and using his GM abilities to change the visual appearance of players. Many have questioned the reason for as to why Senior GM Brewko has been allowed to begin interacting with the general player base during office hours.

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/posts/list.m?topic_id=36300014991 http://thematrixonline.station.sony.com/players/news_archive.vm?id=441&month=current

DigitalSaber

Great job censoring the fact that the playerbase is pissed off with how the game is handled, Oni. We both know the problems are valid, and I'm not sitting this out just because "It's against Wikipedia policy." We both know MxO is obscure to the public. We both know SOE's employees won't let the problematic issues go public. And last but not least, we both know that no qualified reporter will ever go near MxO because he/she doesn't know much about the game as much as the playerbase. Dibol 04:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you disagree with the way Wikipedia works. You don't have to be a part of this process if you disagree with it, though I am sure it would be much more beneficial to everyone if you continued editing within the fairly lax constraints that the Wikipedia community has set. Perhaps you could do what the majority of the functioning community does here when they disagree with the impact a policy is having and develop consensus for change. Yes SOE has problems, personally think they're one of the most incompetent entities in the industry, but that still doesn't change the fact that there are no reliable sources for this information. If we start accepting these sources, it sets a precedent to break the rules every time they don't work. I'd appreciate it if you don't say what "we both know" or don't, because first of all, what you are expressing is a belief, and putting semantics aside, I don't happen to agree with you on that one. If reporters and industry professionals aren't speaking of it, its probably because they aren't even aware of it. Sites like 1up.com will cover virtually anything that could even be remotely linked to the industry given the proper prompting. Also, I'd appreciate it if you could ease up on the language. The same goals can just as easily be accomplished, if not more so, with intelligent discourse as they can with profanity. As far as things stand now, the only available sources for this information are forum posts. The participants in these threads have no extended factual credibility beyond that of a bystander, to extrapolate any level of statistical value towards a trend in these numbers would be at best original research as I have already established below. I look forward to finding a workable solution to this issue, but unfortunately, as things stand now, there isn't a lot that can be done, especially with the sources provided. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 05:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

New page for the Storyline summaries?

I think the story chapter summaries should be moved to a new page to allow more a more detailed..er.. encyclopediation (=p) of the game itself and not its story. Although I haven't a clue how to do that, or if I even should, so I'll leave it up to debate. -Zippy—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.15.94.131 (talk) 04:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree, the stories that have happened and are happening are notable enough for their own wiki page. Something like, 'Events in The Matrix Online'. TotalTommyTerror 16:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

'Matrix Online Story Summary'? 'The Matrix Online Storyline'?--Viridis 20:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say.. "The Matrix Online (story)" or whatever you do with those kinds of articles, and mark it under the Matrix series. Let it be done (because I don't know how)! *thunder* --ZippydaSquirl 00:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I also agree, the page is mainly built up upon the story, i propose we make it it's own article 157.228.117.93 15:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Combat?

Someone who is familiar with this game needs to add an in-depth explanation of The Matrix Online's combat system, and how it varies from other MMORPGs. Dreamfall1028 05:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Weird dmoz.org references

Removed weird dmoz.org HTML comments hidden in the article Yahya 16:05, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

LESIG

this whole section is full of original research and [[WP:NPOV|point of view issues. Nothing in the section is given a proper source. Until something is done to clean it up the OR tag needs to stay.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 18:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Problem is the original purpose of LESIG was cited in old interviews with Aether and Daniel "Walrus" Myers, but unfortunately, the websites that held such audio interviews are not active anymore, and the criticisms with LESIG is a consistent problem. It is common knowledge for the playerbase of The Matrix Online.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.85.234.166 (talk • contribs)

First, please sign your posts. Second, without the interviews or some other secondary source, it is still original research. Common knowledge doesn't really skate here. Until it can be verified its still OR.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 18:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

If you read my previous statement, there *WAS* a link. Unfortunately, the idiot administrators neglected the link period. As for the criticisms, it's common knowledge on the public forums.

With the acception of the bit about the change of LESIG duties (Which is lost due to the orginal information being removed from the web) all sources have been properly sighted and the OR tag should now be removed.

I think it's fairly obvious where the bias point of view of these new sections is coming from, i plan to clean up the LESIG sections to be more in line with encyclopedia standards as opposed to thinly guised forum ranting. --172.141.169.53 21:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Storyline Edits

I tried summarizing the storyline and then leaving the original live events (which I was going to shorten later), which cut down on the total length of that section. However, someone wants to discuss it first, so here we are.

Personally I think the summarization+ more edits to the live events to shorten them is what is needed; the game's story is what makes it unique so it should be a decent part of the page. -starofsports4

LESIG section removed.

Until verifiable sources are found for this section, it is unsourced and is unacceptable as a part of the article. It is a universal Wikipedia policy that forums constitute anecdotal testimony (i.e. primary sources and are unacceptable unless the post is made by someone of academic/journalistic recognition or official authority ( for example, an employee speaking in his/her capacity as an agent of Sony or monolith). Adding this back in, however well intended will constitute original research, and such conclusions utilizing primary sources must be derived by a verifiable and noteworthy secondary source qualified to dictate such findings. As such, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation," (WP:PROVEIT). I refer here to WP:Sources: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Citing forums also shears the article of any credibility per WP:NPOV as it is a guarantee that any users posting in these forums would have an agenda, which is clear by specific users attempts to prove their point in the editing of Wikipedia.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 20:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

To Oni: What would you sugest be used as a viable resource then, when it comes to citing references? The official forums [hereafter, DN1] continues to be the only actual consistent source of information when it comes to the game, and its criticisms. In a section regarding LESIG Critacisim, citing PUBLIC outcry on the offical forums would seem the logical step. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.59.2 (talk) 20:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Oni on this one, that entire section has always been plagued with vague opinionated forum styled rant debate, just give up and keep it to policy, thank you. --172.201.252.172 22:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I think you (66.192.59.2) don't understand. It does not matter if there are any better sources available or not we cannot use these sources. They are unacceptable per several wikipedia policies. Yeah it sucks, life sucks get over it and move on. If you want to change something take it to the guideline pages and try to institute a change there. Until the guidelines and policies change, this section breaks them quite directly and needs to be removed.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 02:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed to a point. LESIG should be noted, but it doesn't need a big event with sources and comments and all that jazz. It is important to be made mention of since it does make this game unique in that sense, but nothing more then a few sentences is acceptable. Keep this to game dynamics, the story line (love the rumors :D ) and news+events and we're good. --~XHideoNinja 02:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, LESIG should be mentioned but only to the extent that it exists and that it has a certain mission. Any commentary on whether or not it has accomplished that mission, how it performs, how people receive it, etc. requires a source far more reliable and verifiable than any of the sources produced insofar. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 04:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm new to the whole landscape of wikipedia, but what you're saying is that under a section called critisim, that a huge change to a main selling point of the game [In this case, Live Events, and the introduction of LESIG changing their planning/execution model], can't be spoken about because we don't have an "official source"? Again, I am new, but seeing as I'm willing to learn, please "oni" don't come back with a condecending attitude, it makes it difficult to discuss/learn. If the topic is critisim, wouldn't the direct input from a player of the game, count as an "offical" source? In my experience [I am one of the people that was referenced in the removed section, sourced multiple times even], it would make me a first hand source, and therefore considered reliable. Wiki rules may be different though, so let me know.NightTrace 21:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The change of live event format is already covered in criticisms and the decline of the original lesig group is set up nicely for someone to define the refinements made there in an earlier section. Covering things is fine as long as they're a) not blatant disgruntled opinion and b) back uped by valid sources. --172.143.134.64 17:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

First hand sources (also identified as primary sources, are considered less reliable, because they are difficult if not impossible to verify, and there is no limitation on them. The source does not have to be an expert, does not have to be reputable, and therefore is not subjected to academic scrutiny or peer review. News sources and academic papers are able to use primary sources since they can generally ascertain a higher level of accuracy and they are subject to professional scrutiny. I don't like where the policy leaves us, but it is a necessary one. Primary sources do not indicate any kind of trend. These outcries on forums could easily be a "vocal minority" and there would be no way of telling since the bulk of the user population is remaining silent. Even 50 users out of a few thousand would hardly mark the possibility of a trend and could not be noted as such without it being original research. Until this is reported on by a reputable journalistic or academic source, our hands are tied on the issue.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 21:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Righto, see this is why I never bothered to get involved with projects like this. In situations like this one...there ends up being no "authorized" source, and so you don't get the whole picture, oh well, I do still enjoy reading wiki, even if I don't agree with many of its smaller issues.NightTrace 19:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Clean-Up as of 26.10.2007

Readability and fluency of article improved.

Tense of "Notable Events" section adapted to the past tense as these are events which have already occurred.

Order of sub-sections re-grouped so that sub-sections which were previously scatterd across the page are now closer together.

New section named "Community and Player Base" added as this has been suggested as one of the most important aspected of the Matrix Online, and as such should help readers better understand it.

P.S Whoever has contributed to this article in the past has done an excellent job. Mostly restructuring so that those not familiar with the Matrix Online may better read its Wikipedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flr3364 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Severe problems

I removed controversial and negative claims about living people not supported by reliable sources.[1] Per WP:BLP, we are to remove such claims immediately. I removed the remainder of the criticism section as it has long been controversial and unsourced.[2] It is clearly a violation of verifiability, no original research and reliable sourcing requirements. I replaced the general cleanup tag with specific issues.[3] The article is unreferenced (WP:V), draws on the observations of editors (WP:NOR) and is written in a game-guide/fansite tone (WP:NOT and WP:FAN). This article has been tagged for cleanup for a long time and needs a merciless editing, along with multiple reliable references. Vassyana 10:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Finally someone else is willing to get their hands dirty. Perhaps maybe with your help these changes will stay instead of degrading into another endless revert war and grandstanding session.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 21:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Staffing and other changes

One thing that could be added to this article, although we'd have to be careful about opinion in it, is posting who the staff of MxO is. Recently the game went through a change in Community Relations, and that is relative to the game. There is a post on the forums by an administrator that explains the change, this should (although I'm not sure) count as a worthy source.

Also, nice to see work being done to clean it up; it may be easier to clean up current content on this page before (re)adding additional information. Storyline detail edits need to be the most careful, as this is a large part of what this game's community cares/debates about.Starofsports4 22:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)