Talk:Thomas Silverstein/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Needs serious work
The breathless tone, the assertions sourced mostly from the one sympathetic book, the opening blurb saying Mr. Silverstein doesn't want the article changed: this article needs to be hacked down to just the sourced facts, or else some serious love. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TotoBaggins (talk • contribs) 04:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
Again, wikipedia has the sadistic prison guard approach, pretending their is some breathless tone to this write up is as silly as pretending that the assertions sourced from the same book, could or should be considered a sympathetic book. This group of Bureau employees doesn't want the article hacked down to just the facts as reflected in the above comment about Tommy not killing anyone until he was sent to Marion. Those are the facts and they do not support the BOP mentality. The BOP mentality simply wants to call him names, such as a "brutal killer" and "former leader of the Aryan Brotherhood prison gang" or "a convicted murderer."
This web site needs serious help. The plain reality of the situation is this is a heroic attempt to try to blend both the reality of what happened with the mentality of the sadistic prison guard.
Tommy Silverstein is concerned about this stuff on Wikipedia and where and who it comes from. Although it says he was paroled from San Quentin after 4 years (being sent there in 1971). Mr. Silverstein says it isn't true; he went to San Quentin in 1976 and has never been out of prison since; and it was his first time in prison. He said in recent mail that Pete Earley made the same mistake in the book "Hot House" now everyone else copies that believing it to be fact. Nor was it an uncle he robbed banks with, it was a cousin, nor was he handcuffed behind his back, and no one helped him out of the cuffs, he had a key of his own! Plus he says it states in the book by Pete Earley that "no human contact" was for those that killed staff, not true, it's just for Tom Silverstein, as other guard killers haven't had to endure isolation of (no human contact). =+=+
Page has been reverted
I reverted back to the "wikified" page - please feel free to add content as long as it follows the guidelines of Wikipedia. It's obvious contributors have plenty to add; please keep this to an NPOV. Broux 03:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Truth in Article
TruthandHonesty 00:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Thank you Dr. Gary Webb for posting an article that has many resources and facts. I see from your user page that you have a lengthy background in education. Thank you for sharing your time with Wikipedia and this article.
NPOV
Who wrote this? Silverstein's lawyer? needs much editing and possibly protection.
- Nice editing job - thanks Broux 12:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The article as it appears currently contains a badly written first Paragraph, and without reading the above one doesn't understand the controversy nor the comments written above.
"Who Wrote this? Silverstein's lawyer?" This is the BOP prison mentality asking these questions. Why should the prison guards that are reflecting this attitude be opposed to it? Because it is wrong historically to have so much faith in "the system" that we should stand back and let the federal government have this one person to destroy. We should all realize that we could be next.
They (BOPers) try to prevent words from reaching Tommy Silverstein, about a movie like "Murder in the First" in which the main character is found not guilty of "murder in the first" in spite of the fact that he killed this man in the mess hall of Alcatraz; attacked and killed this man while he was eating almost cutting the head off the body, in front of hundreds of other inmates as well as over a dozen prison guards. Unbeliveable, that one could be found not guilty of murder in the first? How could such a murder be defensive in nature? To these people I would say "rent the movie." Then visit Tommy Silverstein's web site at WWW.TommySilverstein.com read about him and tell us what you think on the "guest book." Although, we shall see if wikipedia is interested in truth, I can assure you that I am, and I am responsible for everything that is put on the web site, other than comments in the guest book.
The NPOV means neutral point of view, which I have, having seen the prison from the pro-prison, correctional officer, point of view for the last 40 years. I used to think, I was conservative, before I ran into people who would have me killed for teling the truth about this man, Thomas Silverstein.=+=+
Page has been Reverted -- Violated Biographies of Living Person Policy
Revert---other article violated biographies of living persons policy --unsource controversial materail about this living person has been removed; and violates the neutral point of view.TruthandHonesty 23:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- This is getting tiring; why are you continually reverting this article back to this non-wikified prose seemingly lifted from a book? Broux 22:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This is not "non-wikified prose." Dr. Gary Webb quotes the book Italic textThe Hot HouseItalic text, the court cases, and materials regarding Mr. Silverstein to show the total person. Mr. Peter Early personally invertviewed Mr. Thomas Silverstein. I think that Mr. Silverstein should be allowed to comment on the listing regrading him. Why would you remove the information about Mr. Silverstein's childhood and background and focus on just one point about a person? I think the article about someone should list as much as it can about the person. This follows the wikipedia policy regarding Neutral Point of View. Do you have a problem with this or Mr. Silverstein personally? TruthandHonesty 00:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Let's establish the point I do not have an issue with the person in this article. Not just any person gets a biography in Wikipedia; something of interest has to have occured. In this particular case, this person can be identified as the root cause for the lockdown at Marion, and can be identified as one of the contributing factors to the creation of Supermax units. That's it. The article you are reverting to has numerous areas which need to be addressed. The comments at the top of this article are completely inapproriate. The first words in this biography are your name. The second paragraph immediately claims it's the truth (whether you're right or wrong, that's why you reference things); goes on to state that no one else is allowed to change this article. The phrase "these things are impossible to verify" - is footnoted, which I find absurd. I'm positive there are many absolutely correct and identifiable facts, but the manner in which they are presented needs serious addressing. Lastly, this article reads from the person's POV, and not from a historical basis. If all this article was about is a falsely accused murderer in solitary confinement, the article itself would be up for deletion. The case of Mr. Silverstein is intersting because his actions created a complete change to the Bureau of Prisons, and I feel the article's focus must remain on this key fact.Broux 13:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Truth and Honesty should be the reason we write any article, not just this one. Violates the neutral point of view. What you consider neutral is calling a prisoner a "brutal killer" as well as all manor of disrespectful comments. Unbelievable, I don't remember reading anything that was even remotely truthful on this web site until I started writing the article.
Whoever, keeps changing this article is a pathetic excuse for a human being as well as an employee of the Bureau of Prisons that should be ashamed of themselves for attributing human behavior to the individual rather than to the control unit at Marion. There are 51 prison systems in the United States, unfortunately you are employed by one of the "worst of the worst." How often can one say that, almost never, since we didn't openly torture people before the Bush administration; now I am amazed at how the BOP advocates torture for citizens of this country for 23 and 1/2 years and continuing. For the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) to pursue this type of torture is the story. Does anyone believe that the most sensory deprivation available is the appropriate way to treat a man that has not had a disciplinary report written on him in 20 years, and of course their are plenty of ways to be written up. There are a lot of dangerous men in the federal prison system unfortunately, Tommy Silverstein is not one of them at age 55.
What about the assertion that he is the root cause for the lockdown at marion and for the creation of the supermax units. "That's it" "So help you, you!" That is total nonsense, and this is said by the former chairperson of the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology at Ball State University, Dr. Gary L. Webb. I have taught corrrections over 30 times in the past six years and show both films that deal with Mr. Silverstein every semester, the one about Marion or "as Mr. Curtis sees it" as well as the one about the Atlanta riot in 1987 or "as the FBI saw or sees it." The thing that makes the case of Mr. Silverstein so interesting is the fact that the Director of the BOP tries to blame him for the lockdown at Marion as well as for the development of the supermax while torturing this man, and telling him he's a killer.
What happened to the last person that killed a guard at Marion, his name was Clayton Fountain; he not only killed a guard, he tried to kill two other guards, causing permanent disability in one, and serious trama in the second. He was also known for his comment to the effect that he didn't want Tommy to pull ahead in the area of "body counts." I still remember reading about Clayton Fountain since his appeal was heard at the same time Tommy's was and by the same judge that wrote about both of them. While Mr. Silverstein describes himself as a peaceable man, Mr. Fountain addresses all guards with the same term, "BITCH." However, since Mr. Fountain could not withstand the torture/isolation he quickly became a mental case, tried to become a monk, and was even paid by the prison system as a clerk and had numerous business machines in his cell/office when he died of a heart attack at age 49 with no prior history of heart trouble; about half a dozen years ago. There seems to be a relationship between maintenance of self and the torture of the mind and body. This is to say, that when a person like Tommy Silverstein comes along, showing no outward signs of mental illness, with the capability of survival comes a threat to the prison system. Therefore, the prison administration is demonizing Tommy Silverstein. Why? Why does it matter so much to the administrators that they teach this nonsense to their employees?
You have the audacity to tell me as well as everyone else that you are for truth and honesty, nonsense you are simply trying to change reality until it fits your mentality. For example, why would a prison system transfer a person with 18 years of conforming behavior to a punitive prison like the ADX at Florence, Colorado? Why would they then prevent him from painting? Why would the warden (R. Wiley) then continue to deny they are interfering with his mail? When we all (those of us that correspond with him reglarly) know that they are, in spite of the denials. Sensory deprivation has not worked in 23 and 1/2 years, even though he is the one prisoner they have worked on the hardest, now they will not even allow him to paint pictures of his cell. In another 1 and 1/2 years and they have kept Tommy Silverstein in total isolation for 1/4 of a cetury (25years). And during the past 3 years, they have prevented him from painting not just from selling his paintings as they did in Leavenworth, but from the act of painting at all. I have done a great deal of reading regarding Tommy's situation including many pages from the psychologists; they do another write up every month. However, the person writing this nonsense sounds like they deserve the entry Tom Silverstein wrote to some guy using the name of Greg (another of BOP employees, perhaps the same person).=+=+
- Remember that the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability not truth, and that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Also, please don't make personal attacks - comment on the content, not the authors. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 00:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
We need pictures
What does he look like? Even for external references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynxlea (talk • contribs) 01:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC) how do i get pictures to you----
Date of birth/WP:BLP
Per Wikipedia:BLP#Avoid_misuse_of_primary_sources: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." The cite that had been used for the birth info cited familytreelegends.com's link to "California Births, 1905 - 1995". - SummerPhD (talk) 16:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't even think we have to worry about misuse. I don't see where this passes RS. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Possible reference?
- Robinson, Eugene S. "Thomas Silverstein, the Most Violent Prisoner … in America." Ozy. July 1, 2015.
WhisperToMe (talk) 05:06, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Assessment comment
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Thomas Silverstein/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
| This article does not cite its sources and the PoV is very biased. Since the quality is in my eyes very poor, I suggest deleting it / replaing it with a stub. Pencey 09:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 09:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 08:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
Sources and Tone
I agree..it is almost like it was written by Silverstein himself..esp, the lines about "he never killed someone until he was at Marion"
Why would the Wikipedia be held captive by this Bureau of Prison (BOP) mentality. If you would like to speak with Tommy feel free to visit his guestbook (WWW.Tommy Silverstein.com) This write up is not only wrong in many parts (e.g., the opening paragraph)it is obviously written by BOPers, that have a Bureau of Prison (BOP) understanding of Tommy Silverstein.
He has been in solitary confinement since 1980, he was in solitary confinement when he was convicted of killing, a white prison guard by the name of (Merle Eugene Clutts), known to most people as Gene Clutts.
Prison authorities (BOPer's) regard him as a murderer, when the reality of the situation is he never killed anyone until he was sent to Marion USP, for a murder he did not commit (the first murder of an inmate at Leavenworth USP, which was over-turned by the Appellate Court - as it should have been). He is also frequently referred to as a brutal killer and former leader of the Aryan Brotherhood by sadistic prison guards. Tommy Silverstein, however, points out that race was never of any significanse in his decision to kill Gene Clutts, nor was race of concern when he killed Raymond "Cadillac" Smith. He simply killed them because he viewed them as threats to his personal safety. Tommy Silverstein maintains that the dehumanizing conditions inside the prison system are responsible for the two killings he committed while incarcerated in Marion USP.
Has Silverstein and Manson ever met or shared a cell or itneracted? I think both of them would make an unbeatable duo, they would be unstoppable together lol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.207.239.170 (talk) 08:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Life-long loser turned murderer. But thanks for your insight into that mentality, where everything they do is the fault of ‘the system’. Maybe there would be a way to source it, and put it in the article. 2A00:23C7:E284:CF00:F15B:1636:2FE0:CA89 (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)