Talk:Toby Saks

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A fact from Toby Saks appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 August 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that cellist Toby Saks was one of the first female members of the New York Philharmonic?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Toby Saks.

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Female members/women members[edit]

Both the Seattle Times and the Seattle Woman Magazine you quote as your sources refer to Ms Saks as the "third woman member" of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, not the "third female member". As a woman (not female) professional, speaking on behalf of all the women I know who would find the term "female" offensive, I am asking you to change the term in both the article and the hook. You are far from alone in using female in this way, in fact it's becoming pervasive, but it's still unfortunate. Thanks, Awien (talk) 17:56, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Made change as per discussion [1] Awien (talk) 00:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My Oxford English Dictionary does not list an adjectival usage of "woman". Nobody says "a man member". The word "woman" is a noun. For hundreds of years the adjectival form has been "female" or "womanly". Speaking on behalf of all the women I know who would find politikal korrectniz offensive, I am asking you to stop debasing the English language in the promotion of trendy opinion and currenty-fashionable idiocy Captainbeefart (talk) 08:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Captainbeefart, given your tone, I wasn’t going to bother responding, but I have decided after all to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Firstly, a dictionary is neither a grammar nor a style guide. In English syntax, there is no problem whatsoever with a noun modifying a noun (it’s called apposition). Here are a handful of examples from a list that could be endless: floor tile, school bus, coffee cup, glass ceiling, closet door . . . standard English, not ungrammatical in the slightest.

As for “woman” used as a modifier, William Safire notes here: [2] that the usage dates back to 1300, and quotes Dryden’s “woman grammarian” from 1697.

But significant numbers of women in the professions really only dates back to the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, so that is how far back we can look at the terminology used in referring to them.

So a search via Google Engram comparing the frequency of woman vs female doctor, lawyer, and professor shows woman far ahead overall throughout the twentieth century until a sudden spike in female professor in the last ten years:

lawyer: [3]

doctor: [4]

professor: [5]

Nobody says a man member (or a male member either) because until far too recently, members were assumed to be men. It’s when a woman breaks that sex barrier that we need to specify that she was a pioneering woman member - which, moreover, is what she’s called in both the sources quoted.

None of this adds up to debasing the language.

Awien (talk) 17:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The page has been worded better. If you choose to continue this discussion, please do so on your own talkpages or an MOS talkpage. Thank you. — Wylie pedia 06:03, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, CAWylie. Capt.B, I'm watching your talk page. Awien (talk) 11:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With her family at her side?[edit]

She found out she had cancer with her family at her side? They were all crowded into the doctor's surgery maybe? You sure? Captainbeefart (talk) 08:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The information has been removed, but that is what the source stated. Where I'm from, we sometimes get phone calls confirming such news. Her family may have been around her then. That type of cancer works quickly. — Wylie pedia 06:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RIP Toby[edit]

Kickarse lady. Anybody have a photograph for the page? Captainbeefart (talk) 13:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]