Talk:Tonya Harding/Archive 2

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Is Tonya Harding's middle name Maxine or Maxene?

There seems to be some confusion concerning the spelling of Tonya Harding's middle name. Is is Maxine or Maxene? Along time ago, I changed the spelling from Maxene to Maxine, but it was put back to Maxene again. When you click on the following link, you will see a list of thousands of names for baby girls. There is listing for Maxine, but no listing for Maxene:

http://www.avss.ucsb.edu/NameFema.HTM

I have NEVER seen this name spelled Maxene. If Maxene is the correct spelling, the name might be unique to Tonya Harding. The only way to verify the spelling is to contact Tonya Harding herself, or to contact Tonya's mother LaVona Golden.

I am really curious to find out if "Maxene" is correct or incorrect.

Anthony22 (talk) 15:52, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

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Tonya Price

According to today's New York Times, she is now married and goes by her married name of Tonya Price. How can we adjust the article to reflect this? Nixon Now (talk) 19:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Titles

In the first paragraph is writen. Quote: "Harding was also a two-time Olympian and a two-time Skate America Champion." The chart below shows that harding never won an Olympian title .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.63.201.174 (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

I believe that the term Olympian simply acknowledges she competed in the 1992 and 1994 Winter Olymics (finishing 4th and 8th). I believe it could be made clearer by someone familiar with the skating and Olympic cultures lingo but it does not say she was an Olympic titleist. --Naaman Brown (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

The lede is very bad

Tony Harding is only known by the wider world because of the attack on Kerrigan, but this fact is hidden in the lede by very ambiguous language. This needs to be fixed. Ashmoo (talk) 12:00, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

This article must adhere to the Wikipedia standard of biographies of living persons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons It's not the goal of a Wikipedia article to portray the subject based on what popular opinion assumes. It should be remembered that being "famous" is not a criterion of having one's own Wikipedia biographical article. One need merely to be notable in one's own field, and Tonya became a notable in her field in 1991 (three years before the attack on Kerrigan) when she became the national champion and the second woman (and first female American) to land the triple axel in competition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kny7dCW0h5w she undoubtedly gained far more mainstream fame during the build up to the 1994 winter Olympics, but she wouldn't have been headed towards those Olympics if not for having already been notable in her field. It is simply within the parameters of a Wikipedia BLP standards to mention what made her notable in her field to begin with. The attack on Nancy Kerrigan was not the sum-total of her life experience. You cannot write a Wikipedia biography of a living person and list only one aspect of a person's life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Copy Editor (talk • contribs) 23:17, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Undue weight

It appears to me that it is undue weight to give an entire section called "series of incidents." These incidents usually happened in the context of her competitions, which she usually won. I think these should be integrated into the larger body of the article. It seems unfair to give them an entire section of their own. Skatefan2014 (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of removing the section titled "series of incidences." As Tonya and Nancy are forever linked, it seems only fair to me that their pages be used as comparisons for one another. While Nancy's page does have a section about controversy she endured after the Olympics [1], there is no section in her article to match the "series of incidences" section in Tonya's article. And the post-Olympics controversy in Tonya's life is covered very well in the article already, integrated into the body of the section about the controversy in 1994 (as well as the "later celebrity" section: [2]). It just seems to be on the verge of defamation of character to have a section which consists of nothing more than a list of every misdeed in Tonya's career. We need to remember that this is a biography of a living person! Skatefan2014 (talk) 18:24, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Are you kidding? If it weren't for those incidents, Tonya Harding would be another in a list of thousands of Olympians that nobody's ever heard of. She's not famous, she's notorious. She chose that route, and it's completely accurate and correct that she be shown in her Wikipedia to be the infamous figure that she truly has become.

"ARE YOU KIDDING," you do know your name, right? So sign it. By the way, your comments have a wee POV problem in that you fiercely accuse Harding of mayhem without proof. Once and for all: she has never, ever, admitted to knowing in advance that her idiot husband was planning the attack. Nor does any proof exist that she did know. Her husband claimed that she did, after his lawyer explained to him the plea-bargaining benefits if he threw Harding to the wolves.And that is all we know for sure. Younggoldchip (talk) 17:17, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Attack on Kerrigan subsection: more undue weight

I believe another instance of undue weight is the subsection "Attack on Kerrigan." I'm not arguing that the attack shouldn't be mentioned. Obviously, it should be mentioned. I'm arguing that it is mentioned in the wrong section. The subsection "Attack on Kerrigan" is under the main header titled "Skating career," giving the false impression that the attack on Kerrigan was a part of Tonya's career -- which seems to imply that Tonya herself attacked Kerrigan! (Sarah Marshall writes that this is a new morph of the 1994 attack, some people believing Tonya did it herself. [3]) Kerrigan's page devotes an entire main section to the attack, with the general title of "January 1994 attack": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Kerrigan#January_1994_attack . I propose a similarly neutral section on this Tonya Harding page. Skatefan2014 (talk) 02:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Tonya Harding was not merely "implicated" in the attack, she was charged, convicted, and sentenced in a court of law. More on that (https://www.yahoo.com/news/never-seen-evidence-emerges-case-171446528.html). Attempts to diminish her role require both suspension of logic and willful ignorance of the facts.2601:281:C204:6170:F189:6463:4956:BE58 (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Tonya Harding has never been found guilty of the attack. She was found guilty of obstructing justice by attempting to protect her ex-husband, after learning of his involvement. Younggoldchip (talk) 17:22, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Change her name to: Tonya Price (Harding)

There was a mobile edit that changed Tonya's last name to Price without explanation and did not filter the entire article for the change either. I was going to revert as vandalism until I read the source HERE of the statement from this article that she had been remarried. In her own words.. "My name is Tonya Price." This is a BLP and it should properly reflect that living person. I do not know the proper way to adjust this article to display her name correctly and not undermine the content or alter the identity. Requesting editor help. ---> Darryl.P.Pike (talk) 18:28, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

In the article that you quoted, she also goes on to say that although she goes by her married name of Price these days, they should still use the name Harding because that is what people are familiar with. (I would also add that for part of her skating career she went by a third name, Tonya Harding Gillooly.) When introducing herself on Dancing with the Stars earlier today in this video she refers to herself twice as 'Tonya Harding' and never as 'Tonya Price'. It seems to me that given that 'Tonya Harding' seems to be the named used in most 'notable' contexts, the article should primarily refer to her as 'Tonya Harding' while noting that she also goes by her married name of 'Tonya Price'. Dash77 (talk) 01:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Quote from source:
   “But you should use Tonya Harding in your story,” she said. I told her I probably can’t; if her name is Tonya Price I should call her Tonya Price — paper of record and all that. She objected. “But Tonya Harding is who people know.” Which is a good point. She is Tonya Price but you cannot deny that she is also Tonya Harding. This is basically how this entire story goes: There are facts, and then there is the truth, and you can’t let one get in the way of the other or you’ll never understand what she’s trying to tell you.
Our article does not reflect the duality of Tonya in the manner of which she infers here and the author coveys to us so well. I am not saying a major overhaul is needed in any way but rather that the hard-line tone to her identity could be softened some. Watching the video I get the feel like she is playing the role of Harding, doing her job as an entertainer and promoting the product she represents to attract an audience. That is the duality I refer to. This is a biography, not entertainment, and she is a living person which means as she changes and progresses in life so does the article. The names could be applied with one as opposed to the other, or some cases all three might be appropriate to use in order to present better identity. This is a conversation to encourage future edits of this article to mesh additional facets of the person who was involved in an infamous event and the aftermath of it from the position of "That was then. This is now".
---> Darryl.P.Pike (talk) 16:48, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

January 1994 incident

Seriously? Tonya Harding wouldn't be known by ANYONE today if it weren't for her involvement in the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, and her Wikipedia article buries this as "January 1994 incident"? I should go check OJ Simpson's Wikipedia page to see if it says, "Alleged scuffle with wife and waiter."

"SERIOUSLY," do you have a name? Do you exist in real life? If you do, then sign your freaking name to your posts. That way, we know you're not some elf cutely hopping in and out of Wikipedia controversies without leaving the imprint of its tiny foot. Thank you. Younggoldchip (talk) 17:09, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the attack on Nancy Kerrigan is what Tonya Harding is best known for and deserves more prominence in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.106.131.204 (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Tonya Harding became notable in her field in 1991 when she was the first American female to land the triple axel in competition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8xdflx1Q0s She became notable in her field three years before the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, which occurred in 1994. Tonya's connection to the attack on Nancy Kerrigan -- an attack that Tonya herself did not perform -- is not all that Tonya is notable for. Further, Tonya herself did not perform the attack on Nancy Kerrigan, and Tonya was never accused of personally performing the attack. The man who did perform the attack, Shane Stant, recently told Inside Edition that he never even met Tonya Harding, was never even in the same room with her, and no one ever said to him "this is what Tonya wants you to do": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6bWVP4U5U Tonya was never found guilty of helping plan the attack. All she pled guilty to was hindering prosecution, which means that she didn't come forward as soon as she learned what had happened "after-the-fact." This is a biography of a living person and therefore must adhere to these rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons There is absolutely no comparison possible between the situation with Tonya Harding, and the situation with O.J. Simpson. Nancy Kerrigan was not Tonya Harding's wife; Nancy Kerrigan was not murdered, and Tonya was never on trial for murder. Andrew Parodi (talk) 03:13, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for this. In view of where her skating talent (triple axel) might have led her otherwise, you could almost say the incident is what she is best NOT known for - why she never became known for the real sporting thing in any lasting sense.88.111.239.43 (talk) 10:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Excessive detail and close paraphrasing

Recent edits have caused this article to balloon in size and detail to the point of being almost unreadable. The amount of quotes from various sources are almost certainly a violation of WP:MOSQUOTE, and border on a possible copyright issue. In some instances I have found very close paraphrasing. Some points are reinforced with five or six references or even more, which is totally unnecessary and creates a huge amount of clutter on the page both for readers and other editors. I'm seeking input from other editors - I believe the article needs a good chainsawing, but I don't want to start hacking without consensus. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:32, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Academic Sources

I don't think an undergraduate's paper is an appropriate source. Maxvgc (talk) 23:38, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Is Tonya Harding's middle name Maxine or Maxene?

Tonya Harding's Wikipedia article gives her middle name as "Maxene", but no authentic source is given to verify the spelling of this name. If you Google "Tony Harding," you will see that umpteen articles spell the name as "Maxine". Personally, I have never seen this name spelled "Maxene" until now. Someone insisted that the correct spelling is "Maxene", but there is no verification for this. The spelling of this name deserves a reliable source.

Of course, if you want a reliable source for the spelling, you need to go directly to Tonya Harding or Lavona Golden.Anthony22 (talk) 13:45, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

"Maxene". Janofsky, Michael (February 7, 1994). "Always Tonya: As Cool as Ice But Troubled". The New York Times. Retrieved February 14, 2019. As the only child of LaVona Golden and her fifth husband, Albert Harding, who worked in a rubber company, Tonya Maxene Harding lived in eight different places through her teen-age years.

The new source in the Infobox for "Tonya Maxene Harding" identifies "Maxene" as the correct(?) spelling. What makes you think that the source is reliable? What makes you think that the source is correct? The name sounds like it is spelled with an "E", but it might actually be spelled with an "I". Harding's middle name is spelled "Maxine" in dozens of articles and web pages on the Internet. What makes you think that this one spelling is correct and all the others are wrong? I still think that the correct spelling is MAXINE.Anthony22 (talk) 00:46, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

The New York Times is generally considered a WP:RS. TJRC (talk) 03:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I have seen errors and omissions in New York Times articles. They are famous for saying "All The News That's Fit To Print." What they really do is, "All The News That We Want To Print And All The News That We Want You to See." Are you naive enough to believe that the New York Times is infallible? It's rather silly to automatically classify a source as reliable or true merely because the information appeared in the New York Times.Anthony22 (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that you were looking for a constructive discussion. Please carry on without me. TJRC (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Can the Excessive Detail Template be removed?

I was wondering if it would be alright to remove the Excessive Detail template? Hammelsmith (talk) 09:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

World speed record

it's worth noting that she holds that record only because it's a class nobody else had ever made a run in. There are no other runs in the class. There was no previous record that she broke other than the one she set the year before. Jackhammer111 (talk) 20:12, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Not in cite: artistry replaced by femininity

For example, Abigail Feder wrote that there existed "overdetermined femininity in Ladies' Figure Skating...femininity and athleticism are mutually exclusive concepts in American culture."

But the actual thesis statement from the citation is this:

Why are artistry and athleticism mutually exclusive?

The source might conflate artistry and femininity along the way, but surely to replace the primary formulation in the thesis statement with the loosely equated secondary treatment is editorial POV.

This is the only instance in the source of "mutually exclusive".

I dug into this because the formulation used here is trivially false: there are many examples in women's tennis of femininity and athleticism coexisting.

I would further suggest that Martina Hingis managed to be all three, without any great difficulty (her combination of artistry with athleticism is undisputed; only her femininity came under attack from the insecure masculine fringe).

A way better analysis would be how elite athletes (of all descriptions) are subsumed into pre-existing narrative archetypes.

The Olympics are anything but a high forum of considered culture. For example, these are the same apes responsible for this jape (not suitable for world):

  • YouTube: Olympics Opening Ceremony: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO), with the specific segment staring just over 2 minutes in.

(My original direct link unhelpfully banned by Wikipedia.)

The eternal groaner, "check out Djibouti", comes around the 3 m mark.

A great example of how these narratives pervade figure skating on both sides of the aisle was the rivalry in Canada between Kurt Browning (known now as much for his choreography as his skating) and Elvis Stojko (so hyper-masculine after landing his quad-triple combination, he pretty much had to skate around in a leather jacket forevermore). As I recall it, I don't think this rivalry—as habitually commentated—evinced more nuance or cultural sensitivity than Harding–Kerrigan.

This particular citation seeks to put a much finer point on a what appears to me to be a much broader condition—without any reference to the broader condition—which I'm not sure leaves this page in a proper state of balance. — MaxEnt 20:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I am aware that the negative archetypes are traditionally more claustrophic and limiting for women than for men, but all the same, there's little difference in the mechanism of their application, and the men caught up in this mindless net of mass consumption don't necessarily enjoy the experience, either. — MaxEnt 20:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Tonya Harding/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lizzy150 (talk · contribs) 12:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Hammelsmith:

I see that you have nominated this for Good Article status. I have only skimmed through the article, however, I find that big changes are required before this can be a GA. Please see my advice and comments below.

  • The Figure skating record table should be put under its own heading, and not a sub-heading. The heading could be called "Competitive highlights", "Results" or something of that nature.
 Done — Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The heading Attack on Nancy Kerrigan and aftermath does not seem appropriate to me. Try rewording it without the victim's name, eg. Cobo Arena incident / Criminal assault / Legal issues.
 Done — Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • This section contains 15 paragraphs without any sub-headings. It should be divided into further sections to ease the flow. Perhaps, "Background", "Trial and sentencing", "Aftermath" and something about Harding's confession/involvement.
 Done — Although maybe this can be condensed a bit :) Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The heading Later celebrity should be renamed 'Later career' or 'Other television work' (or something similar). Some of the material there could be shifted to the Personal life section. Try to keep it in consistent paragraphs and avoid 2/3 lines.
 Done — Maybe improvements are still needed, though. This section is sporadic. Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the section Boxing career is worthy of its own heading and should not be placed under 'Later celebrity'.
 Done — Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The section Cultural significance contains excessive detail and should be trimmed. Bullet points are only effective for short lines — the last bullet point is too big. You could also divide this section into "Books", "Film", "Television" or whatever categories they are.
 Done — I don't know if it's neccessary to divide the sections into Books, Film, TV etc. I stuck with the notables, yet maybe there are some you still want to cut altogether. I'm open to that. Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The section Academic assessment could be under its own heading if its important enough - otherwise I think it's okay
 Done — I guess its a matter of interpretation if the section needs its own heading. I didn't think it did, although I welcome other opinions. Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I also question some of the material/points made there. For example, it states, "her name is often first associated with the 1994 scandal" but there is no source(s).
 Done — I personally find this self-evident, it is one of the first things written on biography.com. For encyclopedic reasons, I find this appropriate. Hammelsmith (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Those are the main issues which need addressing before it is near GA-level. I could put this nomination on-hold which gives you time to improve it. Or I could fail it now and you can re-submit when ready. I appreciate the work that you and your editors have done so far. It definitely has potential. Thanks, Lizzy (talk 12:18, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello @Lizzy150:, Over the last few weeks, I've made some article changes per your suggestions. I would certainly appreciate your feedback. Regards & Best, Hammelsmith (talk) 03:25, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Hammelsmith:

Thank you for editing this article. I've just had a quick read to jog my memory. Here goes..

For section 3 documenting the assault, I think 13 sub-headings is overdoing it, so that needs a rethink. I get the impression that this section is a bit too detailed. Perhaps other editors can weigh in on this. For instance, I counted approximately 27/28 quotes. The short ones are okay but I think there are too many (the longer ones make the article read like a magazine rather than an encyclopaedic article). See MOS: Quotations for guidance. Some sentences contain between 3 and 5 references (eg. "There was now much speculation about Harding's alleged involvement in the assault plot.[77][78][79][80][81]" which isn't necessary - usually just one or two reliable sources will do. I also think some work needs to be done to evaluate the references, as it appears some have just been blindly bolted-on at the end of a sentence without due diligence. Did you check that each source supports the statement?

In addition, some of the language lacks an encyclopaedic tone, especially under "Subsequent responses from Kerrigan, Gillooly, & Harding". The narrative is a bit odd at times and it sounds like a day-by-day account, rather than a summary of facts. See Wikipedia: Tone for more information. The "Later career" section could do with some merging of the paragraphs for a more consistent prose.

I'm not too sure about the "Representation in other media" section. Firstly, the bullet lists are mostly not being used correctly - see MOS: Lists. Lists should only be used for brief sentences or phrases. My other concern, however, is that it may be slightly off-topic (see Wikipedia: Stay on topic). Is all this detail needed? If yes, can it be written in prose and integrated with the rest of the article? I personally don't think a bullet list is appropriate, nor does it serve justice for the content. Perhaps it might help to look at other biographies which cover "In the media" of a celebrity, to get some inspiration on prose, for instance Angelina Jolie. I'm not sure what to do with the "Academic assessment" section. There definitely could be some fine-tuning. Is the honors thesis a reliable source? Are those authors' essays a representative viewpoint? I'm worried this section may not represent a Neutral point of view.

I hope this feedback/constructive criticism is useful. The article is definitely better than it was a year ago, but it still needs polishing to meet GA standards. I'm sure if you consult other GA reviewers, they'll probably say the same thing. This article may benefit from a peer review and require more input and copyedits from others, as I feel like this may go beyond yours and my experience. Digging through the talk archives, I believe @Premeditated Chaos: also suggested some of the points I mentioned above last year. Are there any other editors of Harding's article who could help? I'll be glad to hear your thoughts on how we proceed going forward. Many thanks, Lizzy (talk 21:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Because this article doesn't meet GA criteria yet, and will take more than 7 days to resolve, I have marked this as 'failed' for now. It should be renominated in the future when ready. If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks, Lizzy (talk 10:17, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

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