Talk:Toph Beifong/Archive 1

Metal

I am curious. Do you guys think that Toph can bend the rocks in the metal or the metal itself? It is shown that sections Toph bends in metal is seemingly created as if it itself were bended, but when Toph "sees" the metal she is viewing the rock and mineral inside. So....which is she bending?

Well, metal is simply earthen rocks that have been smelted together. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 03:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It's like the difference between glass and sand. Glass is refined sand, but its still sand nonetheless. Hmm...come to think of it, lava is earth too - melted rock. so technically, Earthbenders should be able to bend Lava as well. But of course this is speculation. :) Xepeyon 21:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Toughness

The article currently claims that Toph is able to take on superhuman qualities with her Earthbending. I don't think this is so.

Aang doesn't enhance his body to become a faster runner with Airbending -- he runs faster by pushing himself forward with wind and cutting down on air-resistance ahead. All other benders make similar displays of enhancing an action through bending, without actually enhancing their bodies.

Toph is putting her hands through stone. It's earth, therefore she can bend it so that it accepts her fingers like water. When Toph shows that she can punch her hands through wood or metal with similar effectiveness, THEN it will be true that Toph can enhance her body.

Like Aang's wind-running, Earthbenders like Toph are assisting the *performance* of an action. They don't kick rocks with superhuman strength, they are causing the rocks to fly with bending. The kicking or punching motion is used to "bend" the rock into flying, as well as to add the force of the kick or punch to the boulder.

Similarly, when Toph body-slammed that large rock, she was using the motion to bend it into shattering.

Earthbenders can fake superhuman toughness and strength by smacking themselves with rocks and lifting huge stones above their heads, but it's an illusion. They wouldn't be nearly so "mighty" with chunks of ice or blocks of oakwood. --Sunder the Gold

Picture

Requesting that, once more episodes air, a better picture of Toph is used. ^^; She appears a little meaner in the current screenshot than she actually is. --Crisu 01:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

uh, i believe she is smiling... -Xornok 22:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, I kinda like the picture personally... I don't think it makes her out to be too mean, I think it captures her determined fighting spirit. Prototime 22:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Well it looks like someone changed the pic... it's not that bad, but I like the old one a lot better personally because it shows her in her gear. Prototime 22:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Eh.. I think someone added a worse picture just to spite me. The filename even has the word "creepy" in it. What I had in mind earlier was maybe a picture of her in her robes, like during her talk with Aang about her abilities. I think she had smiled once pretty genuinely then (wish I'd taped the episode so I can double-check). Mm, I'll agree with your comment about the last picture capturing her fighting spirit. But um.. instead of changing it back, let's wait a few episodes until we can get an overall better shot of her. --Crisu 01:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really like how it's so close up on her face. It's kind of hard to tell what you're looking at, especially with her hair in her face. What about this one? I haven't bothered uploading it yet because it may not meet with approval. I know the formal style of dress doesn't really fit with her character, but she looks nice in it and has a slight scowl to indicate that she isn't some helpless little girl. I quickly took this from the episode, and if you like the picture I'd like to slim the edges of it a little more. Dreyvas 08:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hang on to that one. I agree it's a good shot, as it's not such a closeup, and she has a more "normal" expression on her face. She's in her robes, too, which was what I asked for, but you have a point now, I realize, on how it might not truly fit her character. Did Toph really and genuinely dislike that life? Rather if her family had fully supported her love for earthbending and fighting, would she still be walking around in relatively nice clothes while at home? ...Well anyway, I like it, but don't upload it just yet (unless we can't wait). I say there's still a good chance we'll find a perfect shot of her in future episodes (but not this next one, as I read it's Zuko only?). --Crisu 12:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with it not truly fitting her character. I'd rather see her in her gear. Furthermore, I doubt she'll ever wear those robes again now that she's escaped her home. Prototime 15:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Hm.. perhaps we can try to sneak it further down the article then, to illustrate what her home life used to be, before she went traveling with Aang. (I can't recall a good shot of her and her parents together. There's the dinner table scene and at the end after they find out. Hm..) --Crisu 15:58, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, on further reflection I think it might not actually matter to her character. Does she resent the way she's treated? Yes. Does she hate her parents and everything about her life? No. She is otherwise treated well, and even her isolation is part of their desire to protect her. She is not above using the things conferred upon her by her parents to suit her own needs (e.g. calling the guards and acting helpless in order to chase Aang & co. away).If you think about it, I don't see why she would dislike those clothes, considering she's blind and could only feel the fabric against her skin, at best. Same with her hairstyle. If you look at her dress in all 3 scenes (Earth Rumble, formal attire at home, and the stuff she wears while freeing Aang) they actually look pretty similar, and she is always wearing a band of flowers in her hair; what really distinguishes her in my picture is her hairstyle, which she also can't see. As for getting a picture of her in her "gear", I don't think she really has specially designated fighting gear. I think she just wears a decent loose-fitting outfit to accomodate her movement during fighting. It remains to be seen what she ends up wearing as her "permanent" outfit while traveling with Aang (the same way that he and his companions are almost always wearing the same clothes). As for Crisu's suggestions, there is no place where she really smiles outside while talking to Aang before the ambush, nor is there a really good picture of her with her parents. The only decent one I can find to show her home life is when Master Yu is shown in the foreground telling her father that she's not being allowed to progress beyond beginner's levels, and it shows Toph in the background looking down dejectedly. Dreyvas 17:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not whether she hates her robes, but rather what she prefers to wear when she is acting as the Blind Bandit, which is her true character and personality, as opposed to how she must act and wear under her parental care. The clothes she wears during the earthbending tournament (and are shown in the current picture), which she never wears in front of her parents, are very distinct from her other clothes, and I would go so far as to say she has "gear" included in this outfit which consists of at least the vibration-amplifiers above her ears. Furthermore, it is this outfit that she ran away from home wearing, and she deliberatley changed into this outfit before she left her home from her traditional robes (which we see her wearing before she leaves). Thus, she obviously prefers this outfit to her others, or else why bother changing? I'd say there's ample evidence for this outfit being her "fighting outfit." And since she ran away from home wearing this outfit and not carrying any other clothes, it's reasonable to conclude that not only is this battling outfit her preffered clothes to wear, but also her "permanent" outfit (assuming she doesn't purchase an entirely new outfit somewhere down the road, which none of the other characters have done). As such, I feel that the outfit in the current picture is appropriate for this page. Prototime 02:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I didn't notice she changed into them when she left home. It was so dark and the colors were faded it looked like the same clothes she saved Aang in... I guess that is a special significance. Honestly, I just hated the stupid puff-ball things on her headband :P Dreyvas 03:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

She can feel the vibrations of her hairstyle and know exactly what it looks like. :P --Crisu 04:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. She might get a vague outline, but it's not something she obsesses over I'm sure. Her parents probably just like to make her presentable. That's why her hair is normally all over the place and in her eyes and what not. Dreyvas 05:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm a couple weeks late on this conversation apparently, but in my opinion, the picture that is currently up (Toph with a "creepy" or "mean" smile) captures her personality almost perfectly. --Kuronekoyama 07:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be difficult to get a good picture off toph, the current one is probably the best. For one she is short, her hair is in her face a lot, and when she fights the camera angles convey the seismic sense she has. So its either close up or far away. - Skeith

The picture is not at all insinuating she is mean by any means. It is a smirk, that reflects her confident and somewhat cocky attitude. --One2ManyIOUs 11:07, 1 Dec 2006

Sensing air attacks

I removed a recent edit that mentioned how Toph could still sense air attacks as long as they were a result of earthbending. It's.. kind of illogical to say, I think. Such projectile attacks begin with Earthbenders ripping rocks out of the ground, which Toph feels. I don't remember the whole fight sequence, but her fight with Xin Fu did start with raising a shield to block all the flying rocks. That could be her one defense against random air attacks. But I think all the other Benders just sent rocks in a straight line, so Toph would be able to visualize that. ..You could argue that the Toph would feel the motion of the Earthbender thrusting his arm forward as he "throws" the rock, which would allow her to predict the rock's trajectory. --Crisu 04:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I made an edit to this part of the article before you got rid of it, my view was very similar to yours where she's at such a mastery of earthbending that she can recognise the techniques of other earthbenders while they begin their attack and counter attack even rocks in the air because she can tell where the rock should be baised on the attack used.

I support this change; I thought about doing it myself, actually. Don't think there will be any opposition. Dreyvas 05:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. The only "air" attack that's shown on the episode that didn't involve the ground at all that she successfully defended against was in the final battle when the one Earthbender was on a rope and soaring above her overhead, but was screaming his lungs out. It's briefly shown that Toph's ear twitches at hearing him scream, and she successfully moves two of the other Earthbenders into the path of this guy and causes them to collide. This may be noteworthy, as even though her dependence on earthbending (a seismic "sense") to "see" is significant, apparently her hearing is also heightened enough to allow for some defense against really noisy aerial attacks. Prototime 15:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have only seen Toph's introductory episode so far, but I have a feeling that she is able to "sense" the presence of earth even if it is disconnected from her; she is, after all, able to manipulate it in the same way that Katara manipulates the water in her hip-flask. She's so far only "missed" twice: the first is Aang's burst of air, which doesn't consist of solid matter at all, and the second is the belt Sokka threw, which is made of metal (and earlier episodes have established that processed metal is outside of Earthbenders' control).

This would explain why she is able to deflect or dodge earth-based attacks even if the trajectory has changed since launch. --Kuronekoyama 07:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Original research/unverifiable tag

How does this article warrant the tag? The only "reference" possible for this article is the episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender called "The Blind Bandit", so I don't see how a lack of references can warrant it. And as far as conjecture, this article is based solely on the events depicted in that episode... where is the conjecture? Prototime 05:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Solely on events depicted in 1 episode, wow, a whole article based off that! >:( There are many statements on this article which are conjecture or highly over analyses projections based on limited data, statements like:

Although the claim is clearly untrue and Toph knows that the group will not actually take it seriously, she hopes that they will understand her decision to leave her overbearing parents and allow her to travel with them.

This sense should also help her against Firebenders, Waterbenders, and other skilled fighters

etc

So maybe cut it down a little until more information (more episodes air), or look up what the series creators said, don't just conjure stuff up. I for one am trying to figure out what fighting style she uses, there was some talk about that many months ago from a journalist that asked the creators, but I can't seem to find a link to it anymore.

but if oyu want I can argee to chaning the tag to

--BerserkerBen 21:13, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

If I had to choose, I'd agree that the second tag is more appropriate, but I do not feel that any tag is warranted, as explained below.

Though I think few could argue with the validity of the first statement you cited, I have updated it to this, hopefully to your liking:

"Although the claim is clearly untrue and it seems that Toph knows that the group will not take it seriously, she hopes that they will understand her decision to leave her overbearing parents and allow her to travel with them."

As for your second statement, it is entirely not conjectural. You didn't include the end of the sentence in your citation, which states "as all attackers (short of Airbenders) normally require constant contact with the ground while launching attacks." Just because we haven't explicitly seen this on an episode doesn't mean that it cannot be included. Toph stated in the episode that she can even sense ants walking across the ground. To that end, to suggest that she is only able to sense ants, trees, Aang, and earthbenders just because those are the only things she specifically stated in the episode makes no sense. It is clear that she is able to sense all vibrations on the ground, even the weakest ones created by the tiniest of insects, and thus there is no way she would be unable to sense the movements of non-earthbending attackers, who indeed do normally require constant contact with the ground. It is not conjecture to say her seismic sense applies to other attackers any more than it is conjecture that this sense applies to earthbenders and ants.

If there are any other statements you'd like to bring up, I'd be glad to give my input on them and fix them up if they're conjectural. Otherwise, I do not see how this article necessitates the tag. Prototime 23:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Prototime's remarks. I, too, have been editing and maintaining this article over the past week, and I find the sudden tagging rather harsh. I've done my best to keep it factual, and I believe its current state is just fine. This article will be undergoing continuous growth and refinement each week as Toph episodes air, so there's no need to flag it so soon (or at all rather). --Crisu 23:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh please it is completely conjecture: what we have not seen we cannot make any estimation of as the writers could do just about anything, say what if Toph was fighting a waterbender and the waterbender walked on water, could see sense that? If her sense is explained through seismic vibrations how can she detect flying rocks or other earth benders that are in mid air, maybe he sense is up to determining the position of any earth soil, rock or grain, whose to say, other then the series creator and his staff, and if your not citing them or the show directly its conjecture.

But I listen to others, that tags to rough so I'll replace it. --BerserkerBen 03:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

"say what if Toph was fighting a waterbender and the waterbender walked on water, could see sense that?"

"or other earth benders that are in mid air"

It isn't suggested that she can sense anything through water anymore than she can sense anything through air. This article is based on what we do know. And what we do know is that she has heightened ability to sense vibrations in the Earth--she specifically stated that she can "see through earthbending", not through waterbending and not through airbending. We know for a fact that the medium she senses is indeed the earth, as she clearly has issues with aerial attacks, or sensing Aang's location when he's gliding above the ground. Furthermore, If you watch closely when Toph is fighting the flying earthbender, she actually wasn't "sensing" him all; the flying earthbending is screaming loudly, and her ear is shown twitching to make it clear that she was actually hearing this earthbender's presence as opposed to somehow "seeing him in the air through earthbending." And we do know that her overall ability is not simply based on hearing, or else she would be able to hear Aang's light gliding or Sokka dropping a belt on her head. But perhaps the greatest refutation of your argument lies with how the show depicts the seismic waves that she senses, for they are shown as just that: seismic. The waves are never seen traveling through any medium other than the earth, including the air, ruling out the possibility that her sense is anything but seismic. This is very much in line with her stating that she "sees through earthbending." If in the unlikely event this is somehow extended to water, then I'd be more than happy to make that addendum when the time comes, but regardless of that I see no relevance between her possible ability to sense objects in water and your argument against her definite ability to sense objects touching the earth (including people, such as attackers) as depicted in the episode.

"how can she detect flying rocks"

She can detect where and when the rocks were uplifted from the earth and respond accordingly. Again, this is not based on conjecture; we know for a fact that has a seismic sense.

"and if your not citing them or the show directly its conjecture."

Say what you will, I feel that the statement is clearly based on the show and still do not see the need for the tag. But the two of us arguing over this isn't going to change anything, so I'd suggest waiting and seeing what other people agree with and rule on the possible conjecuture of that statement based on what the majority feels. Prototime 05:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I must say that the original tag was too harsh, but the author(s) of this article seem to make quite a leap at times. For an example, I didn't really think you could say it was "obvious" or even likely that they saw through her lie at the end. It would make sense that since her parents were strongly opposed to her going at first, they would not suddenly change their positions to the exact opposite of what they espoused only minutes ago. At the same time, why would she bother lying in the first place if Aang & co. weren't meant to believe it? Also, why would Aang (at least) accept her into the group so easily without question if he knew she was disobeying her parents and hadn't even let them know where she was going or that she was safe (instead they are left to assume that Aang kidnapped her)? In the first episode of Avatar, Aang refuses to let Katara disobey her grandmother to follow him to the North Pole and says "I don't want to come between you and your family". Her grandmother sought to protect her from Aang because she thought he was dangerous and wanted to keep her safe at home, much like Toph's parents. There is strong evidence for both sides, and while it is only a very minor point, I think it falls under the category of conjecture. Let me scour the article for a bit and see if we can't clean up any other questionable conclusions. Dreyvas 06:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I can concede that comment being somewhat conjectural, but not the second comment raised by Berserkerben. And I really don't see how one comment makes an entire page deserve a tag; just fix the comment! To everyone in this discussion: be bold in editing and fix things yourself, or at least address your concerns on the discussion page; don't just simply ignore your concerns or, worse yet, simply put up a tag on the page and require other editors such as myself to inquire as to why. If anyone can show any more conjectural statements, great, but please fully demonstrate how "the author(s) of this article seem to make quite a leap at times" instead of making such assertions without the argument to back it up (one statement of conjecture is hardly grounds for such a remark).

So far, all I've heard are two complaints of conjecture, one of which I feel is completely inaccurate and the other of which I will concede to being changed. I continue to fail to see how this article warrants the tag when nobody can cite any other possible conjectural statements--which I'd be happy to address if they are brought up, by the way (although I can't speak for any of the other editors, and there's quite a few). However, if no other examples of alleged conjecture can be cited, I will remove the tag for it being unnecessary. Prototime 02:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

In other news, I am lazy and have not gotten around to looking through the entire article :( Dreyvas 01:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Examples:

Her parents' ignorance of her true talents often makes her angry. I got the sense she was sadden or annoyed, rather then angered.

She is eager to prove that she is as strong as anyone who can see. again a aspect of here psyche that she did not say her self. At least say “she seems to…” or “she appears to..” etc.

Toph's parents have always treated her as a baby... Waht they keep putting a pasifier in her mouth, you could say there are over protective.

I could keep going. --BerserkerBen 01:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I personally didn't write any of those statements, but I do agree that they can be worded better. I've made several similar fixes. Can you take care of these? Prototime 01:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've addressed those three examples in my latest edit; hope it works. --Crisu 01:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm dropping the references tag for now. I think we've addressed a majority of the issues here, and there's a mutual understanding among all of us that we want a clean and accurate article. If there are other issues, we'll resolve them here on this page; no need for a special tag on the article. (Dropped the photograph tag for now, too. I'm starting to warm up to the current picture somehow. Plus, it looks like there won't be a new episode until the 26th. *sniff*) --Crisu 22:56, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Toph will be lost

There is no mention that toph is destined to die. In the swamp, the native said that they saw visions of people they lost, or will lose. Aang saw Toph, so that means in the future Toph will die. Why has everyone seem to havemissed this fact?Locutusofborg 23:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course she will die. EVERYTHING dies. Just because it says that the vision is of people we lost does that mean she will die any time soon, she may just die before Aang does. Plus, visions are not always what they seem, or have you not read Harry Potter? H2P 03:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Not necisarrily. If you remember the episode in question, it hints that things are different with the Avatar. Here's a quote;

"Aang: But what about my vision? It was someone I had never met. Hue: (smiling) You’re the Avatar. You tell me.

(Cut to a profile shot of Aang, who tries to puzzle this out.)

Aang: (to himself) Time is an illusion… so, it’s…(looks up at Hue, realization spreading across his face) someone I will meet?

(Cut back to Hue, smiling, who winks at Aang to a subtle sound effect. Then cut to a wider shot of the group. Sokka stands up and addresses the group) "

That was taken from AVATARSPIRITNET.

It simply mean he was going to meet her. And like H2P said, everyone dies. And your first statement is wrong anyways. You said 'will lose'. But another quote says

"Hue: In the swamp we see visions of people we’ve lost, people we loved…

(The screen flashes white as we enter a flashback. The flashback pans right to show the spirit of Yue, and the back of Sokka and Katara’s mom.)

Hue: (continuing from voice over) …folks we think are gone. But the swamp tells us they’re not. " Doesnt mention a thing about people we will lose does it?

Toph's Senses.

Recently aired episodes ("The Library" and "The Desert") have revealed more about Toph's capabilities. Most significant is that Toph's seismic sense is severely degraded in sand. The soft and shifting nature of sand dampens the vibrations Toph uses to see. She describes this as "everything looking fuzzy". Because of this limitation a group of sandbenders was able to approach her undetected and steal Appa. She bumped into Sokka in the desert as well. The episodes also reveal that Toph feels most comfortable on solid ground as she was elated at the discovery of solid rock. Also confirmed in this episode is Toph's inability to detect anything airborne. A group of buzzard-bees attacked the group and Toph could not detect where they were. Katara eventually acted as her eyes, telling Toph where to direct her fire. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.57.68.12 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, desert sand does dampen her seismic sense, though it should also be noted that it doesn't effect her ability to earthbend it; just to "see" through it. Prototime 16:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it should be mentioned that tophs abilitys to see with Earthbending make up for sight so well that her friends often forget she is blind. The Library/Desert episode play on this several times -Skeith

The episode "The Tales of Ba Sing Se" reveals that Toph's seismic sonar doesn't tell her what people look like. After Katara told Toph she was pretty Toph said she'd like to return the compliment but she has no clue as to what Katara looks like.

G.W. - I find that she doesn't know about their looks odd. Most blind people will ask to feel your face once you get to know each other, out of a want for familiarity. I'd have thought she'd want to know what her friends look like, but maybe she's just uncomfortable with the concept of touching other people's faces. Certainly, she doesn't want them to touch her feet...

It's possible that Toph does not yet feel comfortable enough with Katara and the others to ask to feel their faces. Remember that Aang and the group are the only people that Toph has had any intimate contact with outside of her parents. She may not be sure as to how they'd respond to what she would perceive as an odd request.

Since Toph is only able to see the world with vibrations, which reminds me of echolocation. My point is, that Toph could only "see" the outlines of people. It would be interesting if her "sight" gives her a 3-D image of the person, minus minute details like eyes. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 03:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

it should be noticed that this information of her inability to attack airborn targets without guidance was first outlined... in the first episode she actuly apearse in(swamp dosent count) when she didnt know the belt was in the air...--Cody6 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

did you notice?

toph looks slightly like Malu the Ghost Witch?--Cody6 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the resemblance. --- use a time tag! i said slightly.--Cody6 21:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A Crush?

Since when did Toph have a crush on Sokka? Have I missed something? Can someone please add a little more details please. It would be greatly appreciated.Stupidhumanzz 01:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the romantic music and her kissing Suki presents the idea that she is soft on him. I've removed worse shipping, what is there is pretty tame but needs to remain clearly notable.H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So she kissed Suki, eh? XD Thanks for the explanation I think I know what episode you're talking about.Stupidhumanzz 21:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

by accident--Cody6 21:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Given the tone of her voice, it seemed to me that she was hamming it up to hide embarassment. She had just looked very helpless and vulnerable to her new friends, and she thought Sokka, the non-bender, was the one who saved her. Rather than be thankful to the point of kissing, it seems MUCH more in-character for Toph to try and embarass Sokka to avert attention from her moment of weakness. --Sunder the Gold

Not the most bullet proof idea, but if it gets the shippers to stop editing I'm good with that. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 02:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Notes Section

The notes section has really just become a lot of disorganized information that could easily be fitted some where else in the article. It's starting to bug me a lttle.