Talk:Triad (David Crosby song)

Titling of the Triad article with regard to disambiguation

The following is transcluded from a discussion at User_talk:Rvd4life#Moving_of_the_Triad_page.

Hi! I see you moved Triad (David Crosby song) to Triad (Byrds song) back on May 29th. I'm not sure that this was really the best place to move the article. I have two problems with this move: firstly, although The Byrds recorded the song in 1967, their version went unreleased for 20 odd years and therefore the two most recognizable or famous versions of the song -- both to music fans in the late '60s/early '70s and contemporary listeners -- are undoubtedly the Jefferson Airplane cover or the version that appears on Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 4 Way Street album. Secondly, if we accept that the disambiguation should mention The Byrds, then the article should've been moved to Triad (The Byrds song), in the same way as The Beatles' song "Revolution" is located at Revolution (The Beatles song), since the leading article "The" is a part of The Byrds' band name, just as it is for The Beatles.

To my mind, the disambiguation of (David Crosby song) may’ve not been perfect, but it was the best fit, since The Byrds' are not the most recognizable artist associated with the song (as they should be per WP:TITLE) and it's not really a Jefferson Airplane song either. As I say, even if we are to use The Byrds as a disambiguation suffix for the article (something I disagree with), it should really be located at Triad (The Byrds song). I'd be interested in your thoughts on this matter. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:54, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Its a tricky one. Your right about how the Jefferson Airplane cover and the version that appears on Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 4 Way Street were more recognizable at the time. I also agree that Triad (The Byrds song) is better than Triad (Byrds song). I can't think of any better solution than Triad (The Byrds song), seeing as Crosby was an active member of the Byrds when the song was written, they performed it in late August and early September 1967 at the Whisky A Go Go under the title "Why Can't We Go On And Live?" ['Triad'] and they recorded it first during the Notorious Byrd Brothers sessions. Even though the song remained unreleased until the 1980's, I believe the reasons above are rather significant and strong enough to cement and reinforce the move.

Lastly, I do think the Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young's 4 Way Street version deserves its own info box, seeing as its rather notable.

Rvd4life (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Good points above. So, are you OK with me moving the article to Triad (The Byrds song) then? I'll also add the CSN&Y infobox while I'm at it. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Most definitely. I'll add some info about when they played the song at the Whisky A Go Go, and maybe some more information about the song in general.

Rvd4life (talk) 18:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, it's done and I've tidied up any double redirects stemming from the original (David Crosby song) page. Would be great if you want to add some more info about the Byrds' playing the song at the Whisky A Go Go or any other info for that matter. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 09:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 4 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. No objections raised, and within naming conventions, so page can be moved. SilkTork (talk) 10:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC) SilkTork (talk) 10:17, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

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Triad (The Byrds song) → Triad (David Crosby song) – Though the song was first recorded by the Byrds, while Crosby was a member of that band, their version went unreleased for two decades. The song is better known via a 1968 cover by the Jefferson Airplane (on their number 6 charting album Crown of Creation) or as a song performed by Crosby's later group Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young from 1970 onwards, and featured on that group's hit 1971 album 4 Way Street (#1 in the U.S./#5 in the UK). Therefore, disambiguating the song as a "David Crosby song" is more appropriate and likely to fascilitate easier navigation to the article for interested readers, as the Byrds version is far from being the most famous version of the song. Kohoutek1138 (talk) 15:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 13:11, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

• @Kohoutek1138: I see that you were involved in the discussion from 9 years ago when this was moved to its current title. I suggest you open up a formal WP:RM to resolve the issue, as a previous discussion indicates this is not uncontroversial. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:19, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@SilkTork: what do you mean by "No objections raised"? This was contested at RM/TR on the basis of the discussion above, and nobody except the nominator, who also agreed to the prior title in 2013, supported the move. I'm surprised this would be moved. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 17:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Would you link me to the objection Amakuru. I only read the above where no objections were raised, and as per WP:RMNOMIN: "No minimum participation is required for requested moves. If no one has objected, go ahead and perform the move as requested...", I made the move. SilkTork (talk) 19:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

@SilkTork: well UtherSRG objected above, and I listed it for discussion here, on the basis of the above discussion. To wit, the song is a Byrds song because Crosby wrote it while he was with them, and they performed it first at the Whisky a Go Go. I don't see any evidence that anything regarding that has changed, the Byrds were the original band to record and perform this song, and the same OP who agreed to logic the Byrds title above is now back arguing for the opposite. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 19:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Mmm. I don't see UtherSRG's comment as an objection to the move; I see that as a suggestion that there may be an objection from the person who originally moved the article from Triad (David Crosby song) to Triad (The Byrds song), and so the request may be contested. As it turned out there was no objection raised. Would you like to take this to WP:MRV or start a new move request? SilkTork (talk) 01:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

As the person who requested this move (and always had reservations about it being renamed as a "Byrds song" in 2013, anyway) the key to why I think it shoud return to its original disambiguation as a "David Crosby song" is due to it not being a song that is very closely associated with the Byrds, except by die-hard Byrds fans (like me!). Yes, Crosby was in the Byrds when it was written and first recorded, but their version went unreleased for two decades before appearing on an obscure late '80s rarities compilation. The truth is that song is much better known to the public via a 1968 cover by Jefferson Airplane (on the #6 charting album Crown of Creation) or as a song performed by Crosby's later group, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young on their hit 1971 album 4 Way Street (#1 in the U.S./#5 in the UK).

Let's remember that the most important thing to bear in mind about naming any Wikipedia article is its recognizability; how could it best be recognised by someone who is familiar with the subject, but not an expert (to quote WP:CRITERIA), and that would extend to the disambiguation as well. It would seem inappropriate to disambiguate this as a "Jefferson Airplane song", since Crosby was never a member of that band and it was not specifically written for them. To disambiguate it as a "Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young song" again seems inappropriate, since that group was actually the third band to record the song, even though Crosby was a member of that group. And, as I say, to disambiguate it a "Byrds song" seems inappropriate given that the band never issued the song in their lifetime and it only came to light 20 years later.

Therefore, to disambiguate it as a "David Crosby song" seems the best – though, I admit, far from perfect -- solution. Readers who are familiar with the song from its presence on CSNY's 4 Way Street would recognise Crosby's name in the disambiguation, and arguably those interested in the Jefferson Airplane's version would perhaps know that it wasn't written by one of the band and may also recognise Crosby's name. Even if a reader only knew the song as an outtake by the Byrds, the fact that they are aware of Byrds outtakes at all means that they would almost certainly recognise Crosby's name. So, while I don't believe calling it a "David Crosby song" is an entirely perfect solution, I do think it is the disambiguation that will aid the maximum number of Wikipedia browsers in finding the article they are looking for. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2022 (UTC)