Talk:Triangle of Life
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Stubbed[edit]
I have stubbed this article as it is riddled with unsourced claims and weak prose, in response to complaints sent to WP:OTRS. Please rebuild it as you see fit, citing sources for all assertions. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Defamation lawsuits[edit]
Additional material must be carefully sourced; please note Mr. Copp is proceeding with a defamation suit in the courts of New York based on previously linked material. Please be mindful of the sources of material cited in this article.--Brad Patrick 18:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
This from Mr. Copp's lawyer:
Thanks for your help with the Doug Copp issue. We've noticed that the link in "Triangle of Life" as follows:
- Earthquake Country Earthquake preparedness scientist Dr. Marla Petal's opinion PDF
is also full of references to the Albuquerque Journal reporting that is the subject of our lawsuit, the same as the Snopes.com item, so we'd appreciate it if you could remove this link as well.
In addition, we think it would be a good idea to have one link to Doug's web page dealing with the Triangle of Life, which is:
http://www.amerrescue.org/triangleoflife.htm
Hopefully that can be added so readers can find out more details about Triangle of Life as they can about the American Red Cross variant.
-Done. --Brad Patrick 18:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Notability[edit]
There is definitely notability in this article. The fact that it is controversial does not make it lose its notability. If not covered here, the subject should be mentioned in the article on Doug Copp --rxnd ( t | € | c ) 19:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Comment on substance[edit]
A cursory review of the text of one e-mail and the website at www.amerrescue.org indicates weak writing skills that obscure a potentially valuable message. The "triangle of life" theory seems to offer the great promise. I'll keep it in mind.
My personal experience includes a few minor earthquakes and a major one that seemed endless -- the big one was in Anchorage, Alaska March 27, 1964; it reportedly lasted five (yes, 5) minutes at 8.4 on the Richter Scale. I recall seeing waves about 1-2 feet in height form on a frozen gravel road; the waves come down the street at about 30 mph or so, with wave-tops about 100 feet apart.
Since then, I became a real estate professional with expertise in commercial buildings, including office buildings, shopping centers and warehouse buildings. My memory of the earthquake endures. I much prefer to have my firm's office located in flexible structures, not rigid, pre-cast concrete ones. Limber wood-frame buildings fared well during the great Alaskan earthquake. I recall the buildings that failed or collapsed were usually rigid tilt-up and pre-cast concrete structures; they fell like houses made of a deck of cards.
I vividly recall reports that most buildings didn't fail for the first two minutes or so during the Alaskan 'quake. Experts report that repeated flexing produces changes in subsoil, foundations and superstructures, those changes interact with gravity, producing often catastrophic failures. My father, a career engineer with the CAA (now the Federal Aviation Agency), was not happy about the deadly collapse of the control tower at Anchorage International Airport -- the multi-story building pancaked in 1964; he subsequently advocated more enduring designs. I hope current construction standards provide for connections and other features that enable structures to flex for several minutes. It is clear the San Francisco-Oakland freeway bridges didn't pass muster when they pancaked the commuting cars. I believe the videos show signs of similar shortcomings in the buildings that failed during China's 2008 earthquake.
If possible, I evacuate PROMPTLY and get AWAY from things that may fall during earthquakes - like overhead walls and floors and building curtainwalls. I know of a fellow who died when the concrete panels on the 3-story JC Penney store sheared off, crushing onto the sidewalk as he stepped outside. A friend who experienced the Alaskan earthquake as a youth was in San Francisco during their "big" 20-second quake circa 1989. His co-workers were amazed when he vacated a basement office in an old brick building and made it to the street-level sidewalk and then to the middle of the street before the ground stopped shaking. He wasted no time on the stairs. I would have done the same.
My thoughts: get clear of heavy items that may fall or find a safe void.
72.42.135.206 (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Don K. Anchorage, AK
The incidents that you mention are the exceptions that prove the rule. Pancaking of buildings (as opposed to freeways or bridges) almost never occurs in the U.S., and is virtually impossible in buildings that comply with California's current earthquake code. (Pancaking is still common in other countries, as was recently demonstrated by the earthquake in Haiti, but those buildings were constructing differently from buildings in the U.S.)
On the other hand, death and injury from falling objects within buildings that do not collapse, and from things falling from the exterior of buildings that do not collapse are very common. Although no one actually does this, the safest thing to do in an earthquake in California would be to run into a new, but empty, building, where you would be protected from falling parts of building exteriors. The last major case in the U.S. where the death rate inside a pancaked building was higher than outside it was on 9/11, and that was not from an earthquake.
There are really four, and only four, situations in which building collapse is a greater danger than being hit by falling objects: 1) Countries where buildings are not built to U.S. standards. 2) On or under a roadway that is not on the ground (bridges, overpasses, underpasses, multi-level freeways, elevated highways, etc.) 3) When the collapse is caused by humans, not an earthquake.71.109.171.179 (talk) 21:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Mr. Copp's stance[edit]
I received the following post on my talk page after issuing a conflict of interest notice and am moving it here as a more appropriate place for discussion.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
You are supporting a complete falsehood (truncated)[edit]
I want to send you to 4 links. I hope that the suppression of links to various news organizations, Time Magazine, The United Nations, Major TV Network programs all supporting the triangle of life was omitted due to a 'bot' and not for nefarious reasons. Children's lives are more important than insurance company profits.
These 4 links should suffice for you to understand that 'duck and cover' causes many thousands of deaths, every year. The wikipedia description is completely bogus and represents insurance companies and other vested financial interests who find it actuarially cheaper and less trouble if school children die using duck and cover; rather than, survive using the triangle of life and possibly require insurance company payments for medical care, trauma or other compensation.
It so so completely unbalanced that You prevented me from posting a link to a Time Magazine article which states that The United Nations Security Personnel has sent power point presentations of the triangle of life throughout Latin America.I can't even post a link to Time Magazine, in Defense of children's lives?
Here are the links:
4)http://dougcopp.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/the-triangle-of-life-is-spreading-around-the-world/
The text of the 4th link is composed of links. I print it for you...
← Doug Copp Helping the Prime Minister to Renegotiate His World Bank Loan Doug Copp Appears on New Zealand Radio → The Triangle of Life is Spreading Around the World Posted on January 3, 2011 by amerrescue
Fighting for children's lives against self-interest, greed, and shareholder profit.
The triangle of Life was discovered by Doug Copp when he crawled inside of a collapsed school, in Mexico City, during the 1985 earthquake. As Doug crawled up and down the aisles, in safety, he was shocked that all the children were crushed to death under their desks. The ceiling had fallen and the weight had ‘snapped’ the legs of all the desks.The ceiling rested upon all the desk tops and remained intact. The children were 1/2 inch thick. Doug did not know it at the time but 3 children had survived this horror. Their English affidavits are at www.amerrescue.org with links to the original Spanish language publications Two girls who were, in the aisles survived untouched. Lorena had her legs squashed under the desk. Her torso was in the aisle. Her legs needed to be amputated but she survived.
Doug ‘s life was changed. He was on a mission to stop children from getting under desks. In 2000 he wrote an article for American Survival Guide Magazine.This 5 page – 13 picture article described the triangle of Life and how to survive collapsed buildings. http://www.amerrescue.org/arti_survivalarticle.htm Doug posted the article, on his website and was contacted by an unknown reader who asked permission to condense the article into an email and send it to some friends. It is conservatively estimated that 1 billion people got that email. It went from family member and friend throughout the farthest corners of the world. The South African Embassy Newsletter in Hong Kong published the original email. http://proxychi.baremetal.com/amerrescue.org/proteamagazine2005.pdf
Pressure was put upon politicians and bureaucrats from Mexico to Iran, from the USA to the United Nations. TV programs featured the triangle of Life, TV commercials were made, supporting the triangle of life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc4sKUt4j-I&feature=player_embedded
One program produced by CCTV, the Chinese Government Station was broadcast to an initial audience of 500 million people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc4sKUt4j-I&feature=player_embedded
The Chinese Government published Doug Copp’s speech to 5 different Government Agencies and distributed it throughout China. http://www.amerrescue.org/chinadocs/chinaspeech.pdf The Beijing Daily News and other newspapers wrote about the triangle of life. http://www.amerrescue.org/chinadocs/beijingdailynews.pdf
The Turkish Federal Government, The City of Istanbul, the University of Istanbul paid for the heavy equipment, provided buildings to collapse and broadcast on Turkish TV and the TV program Real TV a scientific test proving the triangle of life: http://24.222.125.105/arti/video/scientific_testing.rm
Time Magazine wrote an article stating that the United Nations personnel had copied Doug’s Triangle of Life ‘power point presentation and sent it to all the United Nations employees, in Latin America. http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1953379_1953494_1958235,00.html#ixzz0ehPXXL2C
United nations TV copied one of Doug’s Triangle of Life videos, translated it into Creole and broadcast it on United Nations TV, in Haiti.
Business and Economy Magazine, the most influential business magazine, in India wrote that the Indian Government Scientists were contacted and they endorsed the triangle of life as a means that individuals can use to survive earthquakes. http://www.businessandeconomy.org/04032010/storyd.asp?sid=5074&pageno=1
Snob Magazine, the magazine of the oil rich elite, in the Middle East wrote about the triangle of life being necessary for the survival of the ‘richest of the rich’. http://www.amerrescue.org/doug_copp.pdf
Many TV programs have broadcast the triangle of life Information. Here is Doug speaking about the triangle of life on CNN, to 220 countries http://24.222.125.105/arti/video/cnnvideo.avi
You tube videos began to appear endorsing the triangle of life. The Mexican Government, Minister of Civil Defense appears in a Mexican Government, created commercial for Mexican TV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLHd45CYYj8&feature=player_embedded
The Spark Award for International Design was awarded to Yanko Design, for the Triangle of Life Desk. These desks are available, in Hong Kong. http://www.sparkawards.com/Galleries/08_Entries.htm?appid=1291 which have been purchased by the Chinese Government for use in Chinese Schools http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/12/31/triangle-of-life/
- triangle of Life ‘toys’ available in Latin America; http://www.paper-replika.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=740:triangle-of-life-paper-toys&catid=86&Itemid=202187
dozens of ‘t of l’ you tube videos ( in many , many languages).You tube videos have been created in many languages..even in spanish sign language http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s9qjzPWU0s&feature=player_embedded
The INSARAG association of Governmental Rescue Teams, from around the world, have been teaching the triangle of life, for 10 years and NASAR, the association of Fire Dept’s and Rescue teams, in America, has been teaching the triangle of Life , for 7 years.
http://apple.powerbook.pismo.de/index.php?id=78
http://www.vicsar.ca/TrainingMaterials/Sizeup.pdf
See page 632 in this firefighters manual:
Another firefighter’s manual from United Kingdom mentioning searching survivable voids (top right of page):
Page 7, paragraph 2, of a Pentagon report on the World Trade Towers collapse of 9.11:
http://www.ukfssart.org.uk/files/pentagon%20report.PDF
Notice in the following link how many times it is mentioned that rescuers search the void spaces for survivors. No mention here of anyone doing Duck, Cover and Hold!
http://www.ukfssart.org.uk/earthquake%20rescue.htm
Many rescue teams , from around the world, are supporting the triangle of life. Here is the triangle of Life at GOER, the National Rescue Team of Argentina: http://rescategoer.blogspot.com/2007/05/estructuras-colapsadas-el-triangulo-de.html
The original email continues to travel the world, in French, German, Arabic, English, Chinese, Japanese, Tagalog, Spanish and more.
An hour long radio Interview with New Zealand concerning the triangle of life took place with Doug the day before this writing. http://insearchofsimplicity.com/my-radio-shows/
The Triangle of Life is Spreading Around the World
As the German Philosopher Shopenhauer stated: The path of all truth follows 3 steps. First it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and Thirdly it is accepted as self evident.
Doug Copp is quoted: “American Insurance Companies continue to violently oppose the triangle of life because surviving school children require compensation for emotional or traumatic injury. Shareholder profits are reduced. Many USA bureaucrats continue to oppose the triangle of life because the insurance companies have told them that their premiums will increase or their coverage will be dropped, if they change to the triangle of life. This is wrong and unacceptable to any decent person. Children’s lives are more important than Insurance Company profits. Does this sound like the truth behind the Health Care Debate, in the USA? It is. Corporate Profit vs. human life”
Read the article (part of a series of 9 articles supporting Doug Copp) as published by the Desert Valley Star , a California newspaper, exposing the malicious lies and attacks against Doug Copp
‘Duck and Cover’ cannot be defended; since, it is nonsense and the “triangle of Life’ is as true and real as gravity; therefore, the only means of protecting corporate greed, at the expense of school children’s lives, has been to attack Doug Copp, personally. As an unpaid volunteer, who has risked his life and dedicated his life, to saving people from disaster, Doug Copp has been defamed and discredited as a ‘knucklehead’, ‘idiot’, ‘criminal’, ‘phony’, ‘fraud’…and worse. Criminal acts have been made against him and his life has been threatened.
Doug Copp’s response: ” I follow my conscience. Their lies are not enough to stop me. They will need to kill me. After my death, I will face God and know that I did everything I possibly could to protect the children. I will have a clear conscience. Period.”
http://desertvalleystar.com/article.php?a=928
doug copp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougcopp (talk • contribs) 15:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
- Is there any evidence that insurance companies have said that their costs would be higher if fewer people die in earthquakes? That would be interesting to note in the article, but if it is conjecture based solely on the fact that bureaucrats do not endorse Triangle of Life, then it seems unlikely to be true. I would expect that encouraging people to move to higher-risk areas would increase insurance costs, because it would not only increase the number of people killed, but also the number injured. People do criticize good ideas sometimes, but they definitely criticize bad ideas, so criticism of an idea is not evidence that it is true. There are valid scientific reasons why officials might advise people to drop, cover, and hold on; for example if the types of full-building pancake collapses observed in the Mexico City school and the Doug Copp video are rare compared to other circumstances of falling debris and partial or full building collapse that cause injuries in a different pattern. It also matters what the dominant type of building and furniture construction is in a given area, so the lowest-risk strategy might be different in different places. There is also photographic evidence that even in severe collapses, desks actually do create voids directly underneath them and save people from being crushed by the ceiling or major beams, in addition to deflecting huge falling chunks of concrete which being next to the desk would not do:
- https://redsismica.uprm.edu/english/education/triangle_of_life.php
- In this case, it's academics at a university sharing evidence and advice. If they were being pressured to change their advice by insurance companies, I would expect a tenured professor to loudly criticize that pressure and continue to give people advice based on the best science they were aware of.
- -- Beland (talk) 18:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- The Time article can be read here. It says most disaster experts consider Triangle of Life a "gratuitous if not irresponsible position", which may mean that the UN spreading information about it was counterproductive. I'm not sure that article says anything that isn't already in the Wikipedia article now. -- Beland (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Categories[edit]
This email does seem common enough for an article, but I'm surprised we don't have a category for such... maybe we need a Category:viral emails? It doesn't really fit Category:Internet memes. Maybe a list of common viral emails would be a worthwhile addition, too. Andrewa (talk) 23:02, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
External links modified[edit]
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Turkey[edit]
The 30,000 people killed by pancaking buildings in the Turkey disaster make it beyond obvious that this article, no matter how well cited, is plainly wrong in that it doesn't qualify the claims it makes geographically. The citations are heavily US based and hastily generalized without making this clear. Anyone outside US seeking to protect their lives by using the information in this article will likely die. This makes the article at best irresponsible, at worst criminal. Please take down and reevaluate if Wikipedia still has the slightest interest in safeguarding human life. 2A02:2F00:210D:A900:CEE:F5EB:218:3AD6 (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- The article says that different strategies might be appropriate in different countries, so this concern seems to have been addressed. I haven't seen any scientifically rigorous evidence (meaning statistical studies, not anecdotes) that shows Triangle of Life is the best strategy in Turkey or any other specific location. If you are aware of any sources that do so, that would be interesting to add to the article. -- Beland (talk) 18:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)