Talk:Trinity College Dublin/Archive 2

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Use of reference "Extracts from Letters Patent.." in the article

Recently the reference to the "Extracts from Letters Patent.." was removed by an editor who described it as "original research". It was restored with the comment that "It wasn't OR, it was a reference." Then it was removed again with the comment "Use of a primary source is original research. Please see WP:OR."

I checked WP:OR carefully, specifically WP:PRIMARY and the relevant passages are (emphasis added):

"Our policy: Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. Without a secondary source, a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages from the novel to describe the plot, but any interpretation of those passages needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about information found in a primary source."WP:PRIMARY

WP:PRIMARY does not prohibit the use of primary source material, It simply prohibits interpretation of the primary source material and specifically allows citing passages (quotations).

And that is how the source is used in the text of the article, to provide a source for a quote, not to provide any interpretation. Based on my understanding of the policy, that means that there is no violation of the policy. If I am wrong in my interpretation, then remove the reference. However do so in a way that does not continue the cite error. 75.69.0.58 (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Confusion on my part, apologies 79.97.166.36 (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

The lede says Catholics first attended in 1753. The main text says 1793 --JimWae (talk) 07:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll check the issue and fix it with a third party reference soon. Thanks. -- Niaz ^{(Talk •}^Contribs) 23:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

This link gives 1793 as the year: though Catholics might take degrees as the result of the Act of 1793.Autarch (talk) 22:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

So perhaps before 1793 they could attend but could not get a degree? In 1824, one of my ggggrandfathers still had to go to Scotland to get a degree in medicine--JimWae (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

This link claims that it was possible for Catholics to study in Trinity before 1793, though taking the degree would be incompatible with their faith. It seems to argue that the 1793 law removed some obstacles, but that some remained for those wishing to become Fellows or Scholars.Autarch (talk) 21:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

In 1826, Darwin,a non-Catholic, also went to Edinburgh to get his degree. Oxford & Cambridge (at least) were under the Church of England and required students to sign the Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican faith. Was Trinity different?--JimWae (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

This states that there were religious tests for offices in Trinity as late as 1873, with the Divinity school reserved for Anglicans. This seems to cover Fawcetts' bill which removed tests for most offices. It doesn't seem to explicity state that the tests being removed were Anglican.Autarch (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Merge

This article should be merged with University of Dublin as they're the same place and there is quite a bit of repetition. Stifle (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep Actually they are very separate institutions, different functions. The size and scope of the university merits several articles, as at Ox or Cantab. The articles do appear the same at the moment, clearly some well meaning, but misinformed young chap has gone and duplicated material. Fair play to him, but we'll have to work back and undo the damage. Happy editing. P.s. I think this discussion has been had before and the consensus was keep. Ktlynch (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep Agree with the above comment but understand entirely why the proposal was made - it is a complicated situation which isn't explained very clearly in the introduction. It would be good if someone better acquainted with the system could put something in for the rest of us! Johnhousefriday (talk) 12:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep As per above.Autarch (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge Actually they are one and the same body. First of all in the Trinity College page it clearly states and correctly cites "Trinity College and the University of Dublin have a complex relationship, and while a "difference or distinction" between the two is often asserted, it has been said that they are "one body" - this was the finding of the High Court of Justice of Ireland delivered by the then Master of the Rolls in Ireland, Andrew Maxwell Porter on 2 June 1888, which reviews a legal history where he finds that the two terms seem often to have been used interchangeably. In the Irish Senate on 18 April 2000 David Norris - one of the three senators representing the Trinity College constituency in the Irish Senate and an employee of the College - admitted that there is "no difference or distinction" between Dublin's Trinity College and the University of Dublin". Second of all, the emblem used and the title University of Dublin can be observed from many different departments and offices within Trinity College, including TCD's home website page. However, the difference between Trinity College Dublin and its sisters Trinity College Oxford, and Trinity College Cambridge (As the name of the college suggests Trinity meaning Three) is that Trinity College Dublin is the only college within The university of Dublin and therefore it does not make sense to use the title University of Dublin, Trinity College. Whereas in Oxford and Cambridge, Trinity college just represents one college amongst many (for example Caius college in Cambridge, and Oriel college in Oxford)and this is why oxford and cambridge use University of Oxford Trinity College and University of Cambridge Trinity College. However, it also makes no sense for Trinity College Dublin to use the status as University as this would indicate a number of Colleges linked together and as stated above, it clearly is not more than one college. However, It is understandable why the University of Dublin has only Trinity College as its lone institution. When the idea to create a University in Ireland was first conceived, Trinity College was initially designed to be the first of many Irish colleges within the Dublin University. It was believed this would quell the revolutionary tendencies of Catholic Irishmen in seeking independence for Ireland. This was the main reason of the university being for the Protestant ascendency. The British Governments idea was by educating the Protestant Irishmen to the British way of thinking, they would impose this education upon the Catholics through harsh methods which would in turn compel the Catholic Irishmen to conform in order to survive. However, after it was discovered by the British Government that many of the revolutionary leaders within Ireland were from the Protestant ascendency and were educated at Trinity College, it was decided it was a bad idea to educate the Irish. When Ireland became independent in 1922, the Irish government viewed it as a British institution and failed to capitalise on its benefits to the Irish population by funding it appropriately. They had resisted in following on the initial plan of creating more colleges within the university, primarily because it was a British idea and the British were the bad guys. The Irish government took on the personality of a spoilt child and there was no way they were going to implement an idea conceived by their former masters. It didn’t matter if this was detrimental to the survival of the newly formed Irish republic or if the people within Ireland wanted or needed to be educated. However, the Irish Government may have changed their view and if the government get their way and they may do now with the current economic crisis and because of a report earlier last year recommending a sizing down of colleges in Ireland where it was cited 25 colleges existed in Dublin alone, the government may force the merging of Trinity College Dublin with University College Dublin and Dublin City University thereby creating a three tier third level education system with the University of Dublin in the highest tier and as the top ranking instution that will lead research in Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.17.164.155 (talk) 02:02, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Keep They are most certainly separate institutions as the University itself has a range of different functions from the its lone constituent college, Trinity College. For example, I hold a degree from the University of Dublin, not Trinity College. This is much the same as the University of Oxford where graduates hold a degree awarded by the university, rather than by Trinity College, a constituent college of the University of Oxford. Simply because the University of Dublin has only one constituent college, Trinity College, does not invalidate the nuanced relationship between the two bodies. There are important differences and separate pages should be maintained. Lordciansworth (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge They are most defiantly one and the same institute. I also hold a degree from there. While it says on the degree ‘University of Dublin’, in my authentication letter I required for a college to study abroad, it was issued under the name and logo of ‘Trinity College Dublin’ and stated quite clearly I held a degree for ‘Trinity College Dublin’. Secondly, if you pay close attention to the ‘Mace Bearer’s ‘ cap at the graduation ceremonies you will see it displays the ‘Trinity College Dublin’ logo and not the ‘University of Dublin’ logo. This can also be viewed in the picture on the Wikipedia webpage of “Academic Dress of the University of Dublin”[[1]]. The Mace Bearer is the person who leads the procession entering the hall and again leaving once the student has attained his/her degree.

"keep" There are examples of people holding degrees of the University of Dublin who were never students at Trinity. These are the people who went to the DIT at the time degrees for DIT students were awarded by the University of Dublin. It is a seperate institution.

Picture of the Front Square

It is quite frankly horrible. I will take my camera with me during the week and replace it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.176.10 (talk) 00:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Corporate designation

I think the reference to the body corporate (i.e. those that own the College) is given far too much emphasis at the start of this article. It is akin to having "Apple Computers, corporately owned by THE SHAREHOLDERS OF APPLE COMPUTERS." I am going to change this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.232.52.250 (talk) 01:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Trinity Ball

Listing the acts at the ball seems to be a breach of WP:NOTNEWS - especially when the edits are made a few hours before the ball.Autarch (talk) 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Update Needed?

This article has been flagged "Update Needed" but Claritas hasn't said on this page what he feels needs updating. Any guidance? cjl (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Switch to new archive bot

Any suggestions on which bot to replace the old one?Autarch (talk) 20:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Old laws still in force

I've found these old laws regarding students at Trinity college and i wonder if it's still in force or not? Apparently by law, students of the college are allowed to have a glass of wine when requested during an exam if they are carring their sword and also that it is illegal to walk through the college without a sword. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 13:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

- Some of those, at least, are urban legends. The trouble is that most of the original documents of the college are in Latin, and who wants to spend their time translating those? The College Calendar, an extremely long document available on the website, lists the regulations and rules that actually apply. --86.46.110.183 (talk) 15:58, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 09:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Trinity College, Dublin → Trinity College Dublin — Per WP:COMMONNAME. The official name (given in the revised 2010 statutes and common name (used on the website and elsewhere) both no longer use the comma in the name. Kwekubo (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

List of Trinity College, Dublin student organisations → List of Trinity College Dublin student organisations
Oppose for now. Common name is not determined by what the university places on its own website. Do you have any evidence that common usage has changed? Note for example that University College Dublin has for 12 years been officially called University College Dublin - National University of Ireland, Dublin, but AFAICS common usage has rejected the new snappy title. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Oppose, apart from there being consensus already against this, it's often referred to by the full title "Trinity College, University of Dublin" in official publications. Many publications refer to the college as Trinity College, Dublin since that is an established form arising from the the collegiate system in the two universities in the UK. The distinction has become blurred in Ireland since the second college has not yet been founded.Best, --Ktlynch (talk) 12:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Admission of Roman Catholics in 1793

Someone wanted a reference for this and it is the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1791 as adopted by the Irish parliament in 1793, section 13

"XIII.. And whereas it may be expedient, in case his Majesty, his heirs and successors, shall be so pleased so to alter the statutes of the College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity near Dublin and of the University of Dublin, as to enable persons professing the Roman Catholic religion to enter into, or to take degrees in the said university, to remove any obstacle which now exists by statute law; be it enacted, that from and after the first day of June 1793 it shall not be necessary for any person upon taking any of the degrees usually conferred by the said university, to make or subscribe any declaration, or to take any oaths of allegiance and abjuration."

The problem was not the law but the subsequent general ban on Catholics entering by the Catholic Church itself. If you were rich an exception was usually made. The policy ended with McQuaid's retirement in 1972. A poem went "Young men may loot, perjure and shoot / And even have carnal knowledge / But however depraved, their souls will be saved / If they don't go to Trinity College".86.42.192.214 (talk) 17:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Protestant image

Is the school still considered "Protestant" by the general public today, even though Catholics can attend? Or has it lost that image?

12.239.145.114 (talk) 21:08, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

It still has the reputation but it is not considered overwhelmingly protestant in demographics. The more prevailing public opinion is that it is full of pretentious upper class snobs similar to the Protestant Ascendency — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eggilicious (talk • contribs) 20:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger

I would like to propose the merger of Trinity College, Dublin and the University of Dublin. I've spent a lot of time over the past couple of days cleaning up the two articles and I decided to add "see also" tags at the top of each page for the sake of clarity. However it has come to my attention more and more that almost all of the information on both pages is virtually identical. Specifically, the "history", "reputation", "degrees" and "parliamentary representation" sections on the University of Dublin page are all covered by Trinity College as well. The only section that is not duplicated - "organisation", 1) talks about Trinity College a lot anyway and 2) could be much better dealt with in a section in the merged article. This is not because of any confusion or bad editing as was intimated in the previous merger proposal (and in any case, no one has done anything in 2 years about making any distinction between the two acticles) - rather it is because there is simply "no difference or distinction" between Trinity College and the University of Dublin, as David Norris states here. While I have no preference as to whether the merged page sits at Trinity College or the University of Dublin, WP:COMMONNAME would suggest it should be at Trinity College, Dublin. --Schcambo (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

I think this is really going over old ground unnecessarily. There should be little dispute that the University of Dublin and Trinity College hold a unique relationship but are ultimately separate organisations. The relationship between the two is similar to that of the University of Oxford and its constituent colleges (one of which is also called Trinity College, for example). It is also worth noting that graduates of the University of Dublin, not exclusively Trinity College, may elect members to Seanad Eireann. Trinity College is not a degree awarding institution on its own, instead its degrees are awarded by the University of Dublin, a body who has in previous years awarded the degrees of other Irish third-level institutions, such as Dublin Institute of Technology and continues to do so for specialist institutions of further education, such as Coláiste Mhuire - Marino Institute of Education, a teacher training college. If there is a lack of distinction between the two pages it is due to a misunderstanding of some of these nuances. Lordciansworth (talk) 20:43, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

"Nuances" do not deserve an entire page on Wikipedia - you might want to check out WP:NOTE. You have mentioned 3 items, all of which are already covered at the Trinity College, Dublin page. You have made 3 edits to Wikipedia in total and 2 of them have been on this talk page opposing this motion. In the 5 months between this comment and your last comment, you have made no effort to fix the problem. Instead of claiming that this is "going over old ground unnecessarily", how about you actually constructively engage with it and head on over to University of Dublin and make all these great nuances clear? Right now, the University of Dublin and Trinity College pages are identical - this is clearly an untenable situation. --Schcambo (talk) 13:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

QS/US News rankings

To the anon who keeps changing this - they are the same. From the US News website no less: "The U.S. News World's Best Universities rankings, based on the QS World University Rankings, evaluated schools in countries such as the United Kingdom, Australia, China, and more, and identified these to be the world's top universities in 2011".

Also, it may have occurred to you to actually look at the rankings themselves. From 1-400, they are identical. Some coincidence that would be if they were made using different methodologies. QS rankings 2011 US News rankings 2011 --CTC (talk) 18:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ancient university of ??

Why was it the ancient universities of "Britain and Ireland" (redirected to British Isles ... which is a different problem) and not the ancient universities of the UK and Ireland? I don't buy the fact that the "ancient" tag predates the formation of the UK - as the fact is, names of places change. I suppose, what I'm really asking, is the label "Ancient University" or "Ancient University of Britain and Ireland". And if the former, lets just use come common sense and use the COMMON name of the countries. --HighKing (talk) 18:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Funny - all that edit-warring ending in the article getting protected, yet none of the protagonists in the edit war can be bothered to have a discussion.... --HighKing (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Having now looked at the other relevant articles, and dug around for references, I've come to the conclusion that the article Ancient university appears to be largely WP:OR, and that the term "ancient universities of X" (where X is British Isles or Britain and Ireland) is pretty much fiction. There is a term "ancient universities of Scotland" and there is legislation Universities (Scotland) Act 1966 that grants special status to the "older universities". Of the other universities listed at the Ancient university article, none of them mention being part of the "ancient universities of X" (where X is British Isles or Britain and Ireland). Many of the articles on the Scottish universities mention being ancient universities of Scotland, but given that there is legislation, that status is notable. --HighKing (talk) 11:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 May 2013

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'Berkeley' is misspelled several times as 'Berkely' within the text. This is incorrect.

The buildings referred to as the College's BLU (Berkely Lecky Ussher) Arts library complex consist of the Berkely Library in Fellow's Square

should be replaced by:

The buildings referred to as the College's BLU (Berkeley Lecky Ussher) Arts library complex consist of the Berkeley Library in Fellow's Square

86.42.146.252 (talk) 18:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Done I found two instances. Given that one of them links to George Berkeley, I amended both. Were there any more? --Redrose64 (talk) 18:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Merge proposal: Hamilton Mathematics Institute into Trinity College, Dublin

Hamilton Mathematics Institute has been tagged for notability for over six years and does not appear to be notable. However, rather than it end up deleted, it could be a useful section in this, and then Hamilton Mathematics Institute could redirect ot the right section. Boleyn (talk) 09:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Concur. Quis separabit? 12:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree, it'd be a lot better than deleting the article which would eventually end up at AfD. st170e^talk 19:18, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I think the Hamilton article lacks notability in general. Either someone adds something interesting to it, or we delete it altogether. There are so many organizations out there, yet unless the Hamilton Mathematics Institute has some famous mathematicians working there, or has produced anything noteworthy, I don't see how this organization is any different from all the others who aren't encyclopaedia worthy.L E X commons (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the Hamilton article is of dubious notability, but I'm not convinced that a merge is a good solution. Currently the main TCD article doesn't list all the departments, centers, and other similar units on campus; what makes this one special that it should be added when the others aren't? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

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"Provost & President"

The university website describes the Provost as "Provost & President"; can anyone add what is he president of?78.18.248.47 (talk) 14:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Its just his title as Head of the College. The historic title is "Provost" which continues to be the statutory (ie College Statutory) position he holds, but the heads of the other University institutions in Ireland, as designated by law, are all called "President", so for the avoidance of doubt, lest anyone not realise that in Trinity "provost" is the top job and wonder who is "president" of Trinity, the Provost is named as "President" also.Daithidebarra (talk) 18:32, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Matteo Matubara/"Matt the Jap"

Talk:List of Trinity College Dublin people#Matteo Matubara/"Matt the Jap" --Bogger (talk) 15:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Notable people vs graduates

The section with heading "Notable people" currently describes the people listed as "graduates (and some staff)". There is no shortage of references saying that Robert Emmet was an undergraduate at Trinity for several years and that he was expelled in 1798, but does anyone have a reference showing that he graduated before then? Should the description perhaps be changed to "students (and some staff)"? 95.17.91.2 (talk) 14:54, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 24 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane ^talk 06:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Trinity College, Dublin → Trinity College Dublin – The university itself, Times Higher Education and Quacquarelli Symonds all call it "Trinity College Dublin" without a comma. feminist (talk) 04:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Support Tony (talk) 05:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Support; this unpunctuated style is common for many universities and other organisations, and not unclear enough for us to care. We've been over similar debates about US universities (is it "University of Califoria, Berkeley", "University of California Berkeley", "University of California – Berkeley", "University of California at Berkeley", "University of California (Berkeley)"?), and we generally go with what the insitution uses, absent any strong reason not to. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:30, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Tentative support - this appears to be how the College describes itself today, but I think more factual checking, and review of legal statements is required. On the home page, for example, we have:

-Trinity College Dublin, The University of Dublin and yet in Irish, there is a comma between name and city. Twilson r (talk) 17:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose - Trinity College is not a university, but the sole constituent college of the University of Dublin. If this logic applied to Trinity's Oxbridge counterparts, would Christchurch Oxford or King's College Cambridge, with no comma, be acceptable? How the university describes itself externally for commercial purposes is irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronanmurphy98 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Support as per above, If they don't use the comma then it makes sense for us to follow suit. (Unrelated comment but if anyone saw my cock up apologies for that!, Thought the "Archive" button was the "Edit" button ... God knows how!). –Davey2010^Talk 18:48, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Support when written in local media and documentation, the name is almost always written without the comma. A search for "site:irishtimes.com trinity college dublin" gives a good indication of this. It actually looks wrong to me with a comma - my instinct would be to correct it if I saw it. David Malone (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Images 1592 - mid 1700's.

An image (and discussion) of 1592 - mid 1700's Trinity architecture (when the original structure was demolished, and the present constructed)) would be useful. I have seen at least one lithograph of the 1600's structure. Are others available? This is a black hole. Mike Galvin (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Motto

The motto is not real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.233.150.11 (talk) 12:52, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Pre 1700's architecture?

There is no reference to, or illustrations of, the pre-1700's building frenzy that is Trinity today. Location of the previous university from 1592 to mid 18th century? Description of university then? Do any illustrations survive? Somewhat relevant, I would have thought; unless lectures were held in a pub. Hanoi Road (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Relevant discussion on WT:HED

A discussion relevant to this article is currently taking place on WT:HED (section) on the wider picture of WP:BOOSTERISM across university articles. Please see the relevant section if you wish to contribute, as any consensus made there may end up impacting this article, and it would be sensible to get involved earlier rather than going through any discussion it again if it affects this page. Your views and input would be most welcome Shadowssettle_(talk) 10:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)