Talk:Trolley Square shooting

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Trolley Square shooting article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

A fact from Trolley Square shooting appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 February 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Sulejman Talović, who went on a shooting rampage at a shopping mall in Salt Lake City, Utah, was a refugee from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/February.

Wikipedia

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States: Utah Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Utah portal This article is supported by WikiProject Utah.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography: Serial, mass, and spree killers Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Serial Killer task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Shopping Centers Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Shopping Centers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of enclosed shopping malls, outdoor shopping centers, and dead malls on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Shopping CentersWikipedia:WikiProject Shopping CentersTemplate:WikiProject Shopping CentersShopping center articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sources[edit]

The Salt Lake Tribune sources will have to be switched to Deseret News sources when the Trib moves their stories to their non-free archives - unless the Trib keeps a special section outside of their archives. — Zaui (talk) 16:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, not really. We can cite to print, but I do prefer the News for that reason. Cool Hand Luke 16:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so the cite is to the physical paper, not the web version? If that's the case, should the 'Retrieved on' notation be removed? — Zaui (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I normally use the "cite news" template, instead of "cite web", but if we actually got it online, we should use the accessdate parameter in either case. It's just a matter of taste to use one over the other, but it's perfectly legitimate to use news sources that are no longer online. If they drop off but are still invaluable sources, we'll just have to switch to cite news. To confirm older sources we can just use Newsworld or lexisnexis or some other database available in most libraries. Cool Hand Luke 16:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Injured and killed?[edit]

One of the injured is listed as 'Hendersons girlfriend' but I see no reference to anyone named Henderson . . is it supposed to be the off duty PO Hammond? 82.98.17.106 20:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It was part of some vandalism committed by 24.16.181.225 with some ridiculousness about a Crip gang member stopping the shooting. I have restored it and added a better reference. 63.226.241.115 21:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One of those killed was the girlfriend of a man who was not in the mall when the shooting occurred. They were going to pick out wedding rings, but she got there early and was killed. I do not know his name. Val42 20:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Officer Ken Hammond[edit]

Officer Ken Hammond is being nominated as an America's Most Wanted All Star. He needs your vote by clicking here. [1] --JAYMEDINC 16:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hammond was *convicted* of sexual battery on an underage girl *while on duty*. I think the "alleged sexual misconduct" can be updated now. Boone3100 (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

CCW Prohibited[edit]

This mall has a policy prohibiting lawful Concealed Carry indoors. Casualties could have been MUCH lighter, if someone could have stopped the gunman sooner. (Even the cop, was breaking the rules!) (See: [2]) Anyhow, it probably should at least be noted... --SXT40 20:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He was stopped withing six minutes of the first 911 call. Ken Hammond - the off-duty cop - acted immediately, engaging the shooter and preventing him from killing anyone else. I doubt that any civilian with a concealed weapon could have done any better. Lonsberry's speculation is just that, speculation, and not that noteworthy. — Zaui (talk) 22:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But if we have verification that Trolley Square prohibits concealed carry permit holders to carry their guns into the mall, then that should be noted in this article. Val42 00:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

6 mins is a LONG time, when you're being shot at... Val42, I'll see what I can do. --SXT40 07:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is that notable? Anyone can walk in there with a gun unnoticed. And how could he have been stopped sooner? He bashed his way in there and started shooting immediately. Yeah, casualties could have been lighter if he would've been stopped sooner; if if if, could've could've could've; what does any of this have to do with anything? bob rulz 07:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, given that the perp chose to do so. However, Law-abiding citizens, with Concealed Carry Licenses, generally, choose to follow the laws of the land, and, the wishes of the property owner. I think it's a big deal, that the policies of the place that his horrid event transpired, could have caused greater casualties! RE: "I doubt that any civilian with a concealed weapon could have done any better.", you're right. because they are banned from there. --SXT40 05:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link that clearly shows Trolley Squares weapon policies http://johnrlott.tripod.com/uploaded_images/HPIM0240-724381.jpg 76.9.67.37 15:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion[edit]

Wikipedia has many articles about shooting events, see the spree shooting category. This article doesn't read like a news report, I don't see why it should be deleted, unless there is a preference to include the details of a shooting in the article about the perpetrator of the shooting. If so, we should merge this article with Sulejman Talović and add a redirect here. I'll replace the deletion tag with a merge tag and we can see what others think. — Zaui (talk) 21:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that we have an entire category doesn't convince me that we should continue the mistake. I don't see anything in this story that makes this different from any other random crime.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where crimes like this were so rare that they were truly notable but we don't and they aren't. These kinds of stories unfortunately occur in every major city.
Merging the page with the biography of the shooter consolidates us from two newsworthy stories into one. Both of them are very good content. They just belong in our sister project, WikiNews. Rossami (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this article isn't a current news event. It is a permanent part of Utah history and deserves it's own article. --JAYMEDINC 15:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger[edit]

Oppose[edit]

I oppose this article merging with the shooters bio. They are two completely seperate things. --JAYMEDINC 02:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — I also oppose the merge. Val42 04:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose there was a lot more to the shooting than the murderer himself. I'm removing the suggested merge template--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 13:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support[edit]

Pruning lead: undue weight and reliable source concerns[edit]

I've removed the following text from the introduction to the article:

The claims, later refuted by the authorities, that Talovich cried 'Allahu Akbar' during the shootout with the police, gave rise to speculations that the shooter might have been motivated by religious extremism. <ref>February 15, 2007 DISTURBING: What You Don’t Know About the Muslim Trolley Square Terrorist By Debbie Schlussel</ref>

My concerns with the text are twofold. First, it's an undue weight situation. It's a minor claim that is refuted when it's presented later in the article, so it's distorting to present it in the intro. Second, I have reservations about whether Debbie Schlussel's website is a vetted, editorially-reviewed news site so much as it is an opinion/column site.

Another editor had concerns about the introduction, and after reviewing the link he presented, I think the best course is to remove the text from the introduction. Obviously, I'm willing to discuss it if anybody can provide a reason to include it and supporting the reliability of the source. —C.Fred (talk) 04:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"2007 Trolley Square shooting, Salt Lake City" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect 2007 Trolley Square shooting, Salt Lake City. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 May 6#2007 Trolley Square shooting, Salt Lake City until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:37, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]