Talk:USB flash drive/Archive 4

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Card Readers vs Flash Drives.

I noticed that someone had included in the article, and I quote:

"USB Memory card readers are also available, whereby rather than being built-in, the memory is a removable flash memory card housed in what is otherwise a regular USB flash drive, as described below."

I have deleted that sentence for the following reasons:

1) Let's be clear what is and is not a USB flash drive: Unless the device has built-in storage capacity, it is not, by definition, a USB flash drive. Simply put, it needs to have a minimum of two parts built into it to be a USB flash drive: A USB connection, and a flash drive. If the flash drive isn't built in, then guess what? It's not a flash drive! So, if you have a device that looks like a USB flash drive but does not have any built-in storage capacity, I don't care if you can slot a flash memory card into it or not; That doesn't make it a flash drive.

2) Card readers have their own article. This article is about USB Flash Drives, and not card readers. The fact that the two technologies are similar is irrelevant and including a sentence about card readers that implies that the two things are the same is confusing at best. Why are we even mentioning card readers at all?

3) Saying that a card reader is "Otherwise a regular USB flash drive" is an truly excellent way to spread incorrect information. You can imagine my surprise in finding it in the Wikipedia. A card reader is in no way a "regular USB flash drive". Hey, we're supposed to be striving for veracity here, people. Get your facts straight before you post.

4) Putting a reference to card readers at the very first paragraph that implies that card readers and USB Flash Drives are the same thing is extremely bad editing. If you want to explain what card readers are and why they're not USB flash drives, then fine; Do that in a different section, but please don't clutter the initial paragraph with more than one subject. The initial paragraph is the reader's introduction to the article. What's he going to think when he reads an article about USB Flash Drives and the very first article mentions card readers? Be clear, be concise, be conscientious, but don't clutter. If you can't follow those rules, then don't post. Allthenamesarealreadytaken (talk) 03:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This argument is fundamentally flawed. Just why is a card reader reader not a flash drive because it doesn't include any flash? Lets see... is a CD-ROM drive not a CD-ROM drive because it doesn't include a CD-ROM? A floppy disk drive? Removable cartridge hard disk drives (as made SyQuest famous)? Don't try to artificially narrow the definition to fit your own preconceptions. Card readers are a special case of flash drives and worthy of their own treatment, but to exclude them from even passing reference as flash drives does the reader a disservice. There is a lot of crud in this article that doesn't belong here - all that fluff about portable apps can be applied to any removable storage for instance - but this short passing reference does no harm at all. CrispMuncher (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for missing the point, CrispMuncher. Just why is a card reader reader not a flash drive because it doesn't include any flash? Allow me to spell it out for you: I'm trying to avoid confusion of terms.

These: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/Category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=379 are USB Flash Drives. These: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/category/category_slc.asp?CatId=942&&srkey=Card%20Reader are Card Readers. This: http://www.gizmag.com/go/5416/ Is a USB Flash drive that also happens to have a Card Reader built into it. Do you see my point now?

The sentence I deleted claims that a Card Reader "is otherwise a regular USB flash drive" but as far as I can see that just not the case. I'm not just basing this on one website, either: These conventions of terms are in widespread usage. If you'd bother to go look at some of the evidence (available at an electronics retailer near you) I think you would concur. Besides, a Card Reader may ACT as if it was a regular USB flash drive once a flash memory card is inserted and the device is connected via USB, but that's not the same thing as BEING a USB Flash drive. You don't see people calling a dock a hovercraft, do you? Then why are you calling a Card Reader a Flash Drive? (For those of you who don't get the analogy: A dock serves to bridge the gap between the land and the watercraft which carry their cargo over water to another dock, while a hovercraft can carry cargo over water without the need for a dock. Similarly, a card reader serves to bridge the gap between the PC and the memory cards which carry data, while a USB Flash Drive can carry data without the need for a card reader at all.)

Your argument that other removable media drives such as floppies, optical disk drives, tape drives, etc. form a pattern of language use that we should continue to use for Card Readers is spurious logic. You cite as examples three types of devices that have removable media that lack drives of their own, but a flash memory card is a different case. For example, each SD card has it's own controller chip, located on the same PCB that holds the Flash Memory chip. It is, therefore, the SD card that is doing the driving and not the card reader. You also cite as evidence to your argument one "SyQuest" and their removable hard disks. A quick search tells me that their "Removable Hard Disks" had no drive or controller chip of their own, but rather depended on the drive and controller located in the drive bay. They were not, therefore, hard drives and are not the same kind of thing as a flash memory card. So much for your argument.

In any case the fact that Card Readers are NOT generally called Flash Drives trumps both your logic and mine. Language (and in particular, conventions surrounding words and their meanings) is defined by usage and not by pre-existing conventions. So I went and looked for examples of people referring to card readers as drives of any sort. Sorry, but I can't find a single example of anyone referring to a Card Reader as a Flash Drive. (except the Wikipedia, no thanks to you.) So why do you insist that a Card Reader is a Flash Drive when virtually no one agrees with you? --Allthenamesarealreadytaken (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, I can see this is going to take rather more time than I have available right now. To make my points succinctly:

1. There is no confusion between the card readers and more conventional flash drives. The article took a paragraph to make the distinction clear. It is you that is attempting to remove a clarifying statement.
2. Your dock and hovercraft analogy is laughable.
3. This notion of what is doing the driving is fundamentally ill-conceived and does not reflect common usage or generally accepted definitions. "Flash drive" is generally regarded as a misnomer because there is nothing being mechanically driven. It is however a misnomer in widespread use and I wouldn't seek to alter the name in the manner that all too many have done with this article in the past. If you are talking about electrical drivers (which we're not) then you can forget it - there are drivers all the way along the signal path, including on the flash chip itself. Similarly protocol adjustments take place all the way along, e.g. FSB<>PCI, PCI<>USB, USB<>SD, SD<>parallel I/O for the flash chip itself. Further changes are made within the chip itself. These last two points are addressed by pretty much any datasheet for a Flash memory chip. You have referred to such a datasheet haven't you?
4. There is no reason to attach any significance to whether there is additional logic on the storage medium. Even if you really did want to argue that point it falls apart the minute you consider AIT.
5. "Card readers are not generally called flash drives". So what? Given the multitude of names around not even flash drives are generally called flash drives. In any case I have heard of a card/card reader combo described as such, and encountered operating systems that described such a combo as a flash drive. I'll dig out some cites overnight if you insist. In any case it is not usual for a more specific term to be used in place of a more generic one. For example, a car (or auto) is usually described as such. The fact that it is not described as a vehicle does not instantly mean that this is not the case. CrispMuncher (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Whether to cover expandable USB flash drives

• There are examples of USB flash drives that are called USB flash drives and are expandable using memory cards. e.g., [1][2], etc.
  • It seems like the memory card readers calling themselves USB flash drives usually enclose the flash memory slot, whereas card readers leave it exposed. (However that is just based on my observation, I have no citations to base that on.)
• The claim that the flash memory must be soldered in and can not be replaceable seems dubious. If there are citations to support it, then we can document the various views, but plainly it is not universally agreed on (per citations above). From a logical standpoint, it isn't clear why that would be an important defining characteristic. (Rather like MicroSD cards in an SD adapter - if it looks like a SD card and acts like an SD card, whether you can take it apart or not may not be that important.)

Where to cover expandable flash drives:

I moved the coverage out of the lead and put it under additional components because:

• The lead is supposed to summarize the contents of the article, as it was the matter was covered in the lead and nowhere else.
• While expandable USB flash drives (or memory card readers called flash drives) exist, most are not be expandable (as far as I am aware at this time), so it is questionable putting the matter in the lead (questions of weight, etc.)
• Put it in the section dealing with the physical structure of USB flash drives, since talking about the addition of a slot/connector to the electrical path between the USB connector, controller and the flash memory.
• The memory card connector is an optional item, so seemed apropos in additional components, where other optional items are. Zodon (talk) 23:47, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Capacity

The reference given for the extraordinary claim in the beginning ("up to 128GB") is not reliable, and the product officially does not exist according to Kingston's website. If no one objects, I'm going to remove the statement... Calvin 1998 ^(t·c) 02:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Badly formulated

I think the sentence "Nothing actually moves in a flash drive" is badly formulated seeing as that (and I'm sorry if this seems a little pedantic) every object in the world moves; barring these in absolute zero or something. Also the verb "move" could refer to actual "moving of the object" like saying that my HDD moves into the living room to get a piece of toast. I can't really describe what I find wrong about that sentence nor am I sure what's the best way to fix it. Maybe something like "There are no moving components in flash drives"/"Flash drives don't include any moving components" or something of the kind. Comments? --BiT (talk) 18:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

IMO, we can say something like - "there are mechanical parts". Raysonho (talk) 06:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it could be phrased better, although not for the reason BiT cites.

• Disagree with reasoning above. (I think it reasonable to interpret nothing moves in as moves inside, i.e. we are discussing relative motions of the components of the drive, not motions relative to some larger reference frame. Also, since there is no preferred reference frame, I can just as well pick the drive as fixed in my frame, and say that it does not move and much of the rest of the universe does.)
• However flash memory works by depositing electrons in some gates and not others. Therefore it is not an unreasonable approximation to say that electrons move. Haven't checked the reference to see what it said on the matter. Zodon (talk) 08:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you are splitting hairs a little. At that sort of level a rock has moving parts since the electrons orbit around and the odd atom decays into something else. We are talking about technological devices here, not philosophy of the universe and movement - SimonLyall (talk) 08:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

"naming Section"

The Section titled naming confused me a bit. Anybody have any other comments.Dylpickleh8 (talk) 01:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you give more specifics about what you found confusing? Thanks. Zodon (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Videos on flash drive

The article mentions the storage of videos on such a device. Personally, I find that any video file I store on my flash drives becomes useless and will not play on any of several players, even after copying them back to my hard drive. Myrvin (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I've had problems copying back to my video camera, but not with flash drives. Have you tried different drives, and what are you using to play the video? In some systems, a video has an associated data file. Dbfirs 12:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

No problems with my cameras. I've tried MSMP, VLC, & Realplayer. Once a video file has been copied to my flash drive (I've tried several), the players no longer recognise it as playable.Myrvin (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, we are evidently talking about a different problem. As I type this, I am watching a video from my camera and it is being read from a cheap flash drive plugged into my USB port. I also checked that it still works when I copied it back to my hard drive. What format are your video files? Dbfirs 13:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

DiskOnKey

• • NOTE: i did not want to earse any info that was already written into this article- but FYI: the so called 'DiskOnKey' was first invented by the israeli company M-Systems, it wasn't only manufactured by them as the article says. the first ever invented DiskOnKey was invented by an israeli guy named Dov which had established M-Systems. IBM did not invent the first DiskOnKey. Best Regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.90.32.6 (talk • contribs)

Please provide solid refs for any change in the language here. This is a very disputed area. - SimonLyall (talk) 10:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Comparison with other portable storage

Shouldn't this section be moved to its own page? It's certainly not specific to USB flash drives! Nuwewsco (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

sounds like a good idea, Would Comparison of memory cards be a good one to copy of are you thinking of something closer to the current article with words rather than tables? - SimonLyall (talk) 22:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Weight

My realistic estimate of weight was reverted on the (valid) grounds that it was original research. Can anyone find a source for the typical range of weights. Modern devices are typically much lighter than 2 ounces. Dbfirs 15:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a typical weight range of 5g to 40g, but the only source I can find would be a range of adverts. Is this acceptable? Dbfirs 15:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as collection of adverts as source, I would be inclined to think not. (That would show existence of devices in that range, but not that typical weights are in that range.)

What I found problematic about the change was it makes it sound more precise (40g suggests more precision than a couple of ounces). Also not clear why the change from 2 ounces (56g) to 40g would be particularly significant in typical use.

Adding a lower bound to the weight range seemed even more surprising. What makes 5 grams a lower bound - the weight of a USB connector?

Also weight goes up with capacity, of course higher capacity devices are less "typical," but where to draw the line.

So less than 2 ounces had the merit of vagueness, if we want to make it more precise seems reasonable to have a good reference to back it up.

As far as where to find reference - I would look at reviews of flash drives, or overview of storage articles. Zodon (talk) 22:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the reference. I'm happy with the compromise, and yes, 5g is the weight of the casing, just as the weight of hard drives is mainly that of the casing. I would have said sometimes rather than often higher capacity to weight ratio for hard drive, but both are changing rapidly, and perhaps the flash drive has not won yet, but I think it will! Dbfirs 10:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Definitely no longer true now! Half-terabyte flash drives are being developed, and they are much lighter than any hard drive. Dbfirs 08:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

USB not working

Dear Sir/Madam,

My USB is not working now. its company is first 1. I can see the lights from the USB , but its not reading.. Please ell me wat can i do ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.90 (talk) 08:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This question should really go on the computing help-desk, but you need to find out whether it is your USB port, or the drive itself that is faulty. Try re-formatting the drive if there is no important data to be lost, or try the drive in another computer. There is software available that will recover data, but sometimes USB drives just go wrong and have to be thrown out! Dbfirs 08:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You should go to my computer and you'll see the flash drive icon and click on it.If its not there x out and wait a minute then click on my computer again and it should be there.If not you should try to format it.If it doesn't work then try to install a software.Theirs a lot of ways you can fix it and if I try to put them all hear It will take pages of info and you'll get bored by the end of the first page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.112.160.89 (talk) 03:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

But you can't format a drive that's "not there" (not recognised by the OS). Perhaps you meant install hardware device? Dbfirs 07:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

How to find the actual memory in a USB Flash drive

Please let me know a methord to find the actual memory capacity of a USB flash drive. I got a Sony VAIO USB flash drive mentioning 400Gb as its memory capacity. Help me to find the actual capacity though it says 398GB when I connect it to PC I have my doughts????? Please help me in my problem. my email ID <dndprint@sltnet.lk> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.43.166.211 (talk) 10:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Sony sticks are notorious for being sold on eBay with huge capacities, as they can be programmed to "lie" to the OS. You probably only have a 64MB drive in reality. Sorry! 78.86.169.45 (talk) 11:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, 400GB flash drives don't exist (except possibly as faulty 512GB prototypes not yet marketed). Sorry.

If the OS is mis-reporting, then the only way to check capacity is to write a series of (say) 10MB files until you get a "full" error. Dbfirs 12:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

system requirements

Typical system requirements for typical platforms would be nice. System support required for a USB Flash Drive is more than just a USB port. Not advocating an ever expanding list. Minimum support required would likely not be subject to change. Naaman Brown (talk) 20:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The opening paragraphs says "supported natively by modern operating systems such as Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, and other Unix-like systems", which is pretty much the case. Actually I'd suspect most PCs and operating systems supported flash drives before then became common in the early 2000s (since the would have had support for other USB mass storage devices). So I'm not sure or what we could even put. - SimonLyall (talk) 07:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

But many operating systems before 2000 didn't support USB at all. Dbfirs 07:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

We say "modern operating systems" . OSes older than that aren't modern. There are no doubt many specialised operating systems even today that don't support USB but I think the fact that Windows, Linux and MacOS have support them for 9+ years probably means we don't need to cover any others. Give some sample wording perhaps. - SimonLyall (talk) 11:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

eSATA / Other connections

While eSATA flash drives do exist, they are very rare. Also not all motherboards have powered eSATA ports and as such the use of a USB wire might be needed to power the flash drive.

Would eSATA or the upcoming USB 3.0(Superspeed) be considered an evolution of flash drives and should it have it's own sub-section? Maybe link to USB 3.0?

Firewire drives are still manufactured if only for use as part of this product: http://www.micromat.com/index.php?Itemid=49&id=34&option=com_content&task=view 79.75.219.34 (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

What does USB stand for?

Re-read the very first sentence of the article. This isn't really a forum for miscellaneous questions anyway but discussions about improving the article. You are expected to use common sense and help yourself. If you need to be spoon fed there are other forums for that. CrispMuncher (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

'Be welcoming to newcomers: People new to Wikipedia may be unfamiliar with policy and conventions. Please do not bite the newcomers. If someone does something against custom, assume it was an unwitting mistake. Politely and gently point out their mistake, reference the relevant policy/guideline/help pages, and suggest a better approach.' From the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines Geologist (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Bootable USB Flash Drives

The USB flash drive is unique among all peripherals in being easily plugged into any modern computer. I'm told (but don't know why) one can't boot MacOSX from a USB flash drive; but I know one can boot various flavors of Unix from one. The home computer owner needs a repair partition, but very few have one.

If a consultant is called, the consultant needs to bring the correct device and medium and driver and connecting cable and operating system that the damaged computer can boot, to repair it. Or, one can bring a single flash drive on one's keychain. It might contain a bootable, Linux OS filled with maintenance & repair tools. The flash drive is a device with medium, USB mass driver, USB bus, 'universal' adapter', and any OS (of which I chose one that can repair all). This makes it not just easy for consultants, but easy for home computer owners to have a 'repair' flash drive on hand.

Often an electrical spike can damage not only a hard drive, but EEPROMs that contain device drivers. Repairing such a computer is not a problem if one uses a bootable USB flash drive rather than a repair optical disk, because the flash drive was not damaged.

If the flash drive has a switch to make it unwritable, one can also store malware detection & removal programs with the maintenance tools. Geologist (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Backups, at Last

The owner of every small business should carry home, each night, a backup of critical information - well encrypted. In case of fire or theft, this would require one purchase a computer with the same decryption algorithm, backup application, and device peripheral. DVD-RW drives do not fit well into men's pockets (unlike the favorite micro-floppy disk).

One need not backup information to a USB flash drive; one can just encrypt it with a generic algorithm, compress it to .zip, say; and copy it to a USB flash drive. It fits easily into pockets or on a necklace. A classified report can be subsequently read the next day, on any computer. The USB flash drive should offer a revolution in backup media. Geologist (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Archival Uses

Ours is the first generation of human beings capable of recording images, moving images, & voice, and copying these with no loss of information. Everyone could archive glimpses of their family's lives, and copy these to new media as necessary. What medium should one use now? Arguments are between magnetic tape and optical media. Here is the problem: although everything is recorded in an ISO standard, on a medium that lasts hundreds of years, of what value is it if no one can build a DVD reader a century from now?

The USB flash drive's medium may need refreshing every decade (copying from one to the other, then back), but it has no moving parts. Even when the USB standard is no longer used, one need build only a simple electronic circuit, not a sensitive mechanical device, to read an 'old' USB flash drive. For this reason, their value as an archival mechanism should be considered. (The expected life of an unrefreshed USB flash drive is several times the expected life of a good DVD reader.)

Any of the three media is acceptable. They all simply need maintenance. However, the USB flash drive is unique in having no moving parts. Perhaps there should be a mention, at least, of its advantages in archiving data. Geologist (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

DoD Ban?

"USB flash drives with US Army classified military information were up for sale at a bazaar outside Bagram, Afghanistan. Because of events like this, the military services have banned the use of flash drives by commissioned, enlisted, Department of Defense, and contractual personnel."

I haven't heard this one. Everybody in DC carries one or two, and those with Secret or Top Secret clearances know better than to move classified information via an un-approved media. I know Furbies were banned from the Pentagon once upon a time. 216.54.22.188 (talk) 05:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It was unreferenced, so I removed it, the fact that homeland security funded the development of one makes the statement even more dubious--UltraMagnus^speak 19:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

USB stick

'This enables companies with policies forbidding the use of USB sticks in the workplace are therefore able to enforce these policies.' This is the first line where the term 'USB stick' instead of 'USB flash drive' is used. The term 'USB stick' is correct in Dutch, but I am not sure wheter this is a pseudo-anglicism of whether the term is also used in English. In the first case, can someone change the term, and in the second case, can someone add the term 'USB stick' to the introduction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.218.16.102 (talk) 07:47, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Changed to standard Term - SimonLyall (talk) 07:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)