Talk:Under der linden

Translation[edit]

Errors, or perhaps just liberties for the sake of the rhyme:

On the heath not heather
Had he kisses? A thousand some: -> Did he kiss me? Probably a thousand times
Delightedly -> quite wrong, richly
A bed from every kind of flower -> just a bed of flowers
What did he do? -> what he got up to with me
extremely - not in the original

--Pfold (talk) 11:15, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The translation is Raymond Oliver's. I am the one who added it here. The inconsistencies you mention are liberties taken for the sake of preserving the poetic meter and rhyme scheme. As they are relatively minor changes that do not really affect the overall meaning of the poem, I see no point in trying to correct them, especially since doing so would ruin the rhyme and cadence of the poem. We could perhaps have three columns: the first one with the original Middle High German text, the second one with a literal, word-for-word English translation, and the third one with Raymond Oliver's poetic translation. --Katolophyromai (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, I wasn't suggesting the text should be changed (it's someone else's work, after all), just alerting people to some of the issues it raises. It's fine as it is for the moment, though I agree adding a literal translation might be an idea in the long run --Pfold (talk) 19:36, 14 July 2017 (UTC)ā[reply]

Melody[edit]

Katolophyromai, I think the wording here about a contrafacture is the wrong way round. Brunner talks about W using a Romance melody, so Udl is a contrafacture of "En mai" rather than vice versa. Admittedly the French song is anonymous, so impossible to date, but the traffic seems to have been all one way, Romance -> MHG. I think it would be very unusual to find a trouvère using a German melody, whereas the reverse is commonplace.

Incidentally, the intro talks about "En mai" as a folk song. No idea whether there's a source for this, but the strophic form suggests it belongs to the trouvère repertoire, i.e. even though anonymous, it's an art song. The condescending ref. to a villein in the last strophe reinforces that (translation at [1]). --Pfold (talk) 15:36, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies. I think it is fairly clear at this point that I am definitely not an expert on this subject. I was mostly relying on what you had already written in the article Walther von der Vogelweide. I suppose I must have simply misinterpreted it. Thank you for correcting me. --Katolophyromai (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess that means I could do with improving the wording at Walther von der Vogelweide ;-) Will see to it tomorrow. --Pfold (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning the end of the last stanza[edit]

Does anyone know if Medieval Germany had a proverb equivalent to the modern American, "Little birdies have big mouths"? (Apparently it is based on a verse in Ecclesiastes.) If so, it makes the issue of irony in this poem very prominent. (I remember making that point when we discussed this poem back in college.) -- llywrch (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly do not know. I am a huge fan of Walther von der Vogelweide's poems, but, unfortunately, I am not an expert on medieval German literature. Perhaps Pfold can answer your question. --Katolophyromai (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can't say I can remember ever seeing such a suggestion, though of course our knowledge of MHG proverbs is very slight. But the verse in Ecclesiastes doesn't have any obvious connection - it's about reporting someone's words not giving an account of events. Also, Walther's speaker has the conviction that the bird will not tell. --Pfold (talk) 15:43, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]