Talk:United Grand Lodge of England

1717

There are serious doubts on the 1717 issue, you see there is no records of that ever happened. "Organized Freemasonry in London became established on 24 June 1717 when four London lodges came together at the Goose and Gridiron Ale House, St Paul’s Churchyard" History page gives user:195.248.124.162 as the posting editor of this section, although he did not sign. Millennium Sentinel 00:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The other issue is that UGLE was formed in 1813 not 1717 History page gives user:195.248.124.162 as the posting editor of this section, although he did not sign. Millennium Sentinel 00:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

GLE was founded in 1717. This is the direct ancestor of UGLE. Millennium Sentinel 00:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The Act of Union of 1813 was between two independent and equal Grand Lodges: The Grand Lodge of London which was self-stared in the back room of a London Ale-house in 1717; and The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, similarly self-started in 1751.

This is obviously an unfortunate misunderstanding because this is a statement made by Jeremy Pemberton, the President of the Board of General Purposes of The United Grand Lodge of England at the Centenary Conference of The Grand Lodge of Adelaide in June 1984: "The first Annual Assembly of the four London Lodges that came together on 24th June 1717 did not constitute in any sense a regulatory body." Peter Clatworthy, Grand Secretary of The Grand Lodge of All England.

Where can I find a list of Grand Masters of the GLE before the UGLE was founded?
VM 17:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

A comprehensive list of Grand Masters in England from AD 926 to 1810 may be found on website: www.grandlodgeofallengland.org Webpage: York Grand Masters. This webpage is historically sourced and fully referenced. Peter Clatworthy, Grand Secretary, Grand Lodge of All England.

I'd get in touch with UGLE, they'll have the lists or be able to direct you to a publication which includes it.ALR 21:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I have asked for facts to prove that there was no Freemasonry prior to that recorded in Scotland or before 1717 indeed. We know that speculative Freemasonry was taking place in Canterbury in 1429 (See: Tanner Manuscript 1429 Bodleian Library). And King Henry VI was initiated in the same year according to Apollo Lodge, Oxford in its Freemasons Pocket Companion of 1831.

This historical fact is confirmed by the Acta Latomorum ou Chronologie de l'Histoire de la Franche-Maçonnerie Française et Étrangére by Claude Antoine Thory (1784) as follows: "In 1442 King Henry VI developed several questions for Masons regarding the mysteries of their reception and the object of their studies. Satisfied with their answers, he was admitted to the Fraternity, protected it, constituted old charters concerning its privileges, and approved them, in the opinion of his council. He applied to the study of art and all the lords of the court followed his example. He appointed, in 1443, as Grand Master William Wanafleet, bishop of Winchester: who built at his expense the college of Magdalene, in Oxford, and a great number of religious buildings."

Stowe's Survey, ch.V., p.215, Published According to Act of Parliament (1754) records that "The company of Masons, being otherwise termed Free Masons, of auncient staunding and gude reckoning, by means of affable and kind meetyngs dyverse tymes, and as a lovinge brotherhode use to doe, did frequent this mutual assembly in the tyme of Henry VI. in the twelfth yeare of his most gracious reign, A. D. 1434."

The same record says farther "That the charges and laws of the Free Masons have been seen and perused by our late Sovereign King Henry VI. and by the Lords of his most honourable council, who have allowed them, and declared, That they be right good and reasonable to be holden, as they have been drawn out and collected from the records of auncient tymes," &c. &c.

The Cooke Manuscript of c.1420 records speculative freemasonry going back to the early 10th century. When was the first recorded initiation of a speculative freemason in Scotland?

The York MS No 1 (1600) refers to two Free Masons, William Kaye and Robert Preston who were also Freemen of the City of York: one a Spurmaker/Haberdasher, the other a Fishmonger. Hardly "operative" freemasons unless buildings at that time were constructed from pieces of chinzy felt, spiky bits of metal, and haddock fillet.

This page need a complete re-write. Peter Clatworthy, Grand Secretary, Grand Lodge of All England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.221.77 (talk) 14:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of 24 June 1717 date in Opening paragraph

In the articles opening paragraph, it is stated that UGLE is the oldest Grand Lodge in the world, but at the same time in the history section no one to date has provided any evidence that this was the actual case. Such statements raise issues of credibility and accuracy in this article. Additionally the mods of this website have marked the history section as requiring sources to verify the date, amongst other things. Todate the authentication of the former has not happened yet.

I have noticed that a few edits to the opening commentary have been undertaken, with it being re-edited back to its original status, perhaps unknowingly in contradiction of the need to verify dates, which is quite apparent if one reads the history section.

I have therefore put the superfix in the sentence containing the 24 June 1717 date. I propose that this line should either be deleted, until as such a time that the date can be verified and a supporting reference provided, or a different form or wording used. As a researcher and lecturer in the small sense of the word in this area, we should reference where possible all information and not state dates as the definate article which we cannot yet back up.

Should anyone wish to discuss this with me please do so, before they, decide to wrongly (IMOP)change it again. More work in this area is needed with references please. Aquizard 13:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

You cited a few other things, too, which seem POV rather than genuine discussion, considering the "again" tells me you're the IP editor who did the same thing before. BTW, your research skills need work - the date as stated in this article is given by UGLE itself here; if you're going to do research, try not to overlook fundamental resources. As a note, even Kilwinning #0 has dating issues - their charter is supposedly a copy of a document 200 years older, which is no longer extant. As some point you need to take the information as a given, or you have nowhere to start. MSJapan 19:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Following your latest commentary unfortunately you are wrong in your assumption that I made the original change, as my own IP address if I should it is different from that recorded, it was someone else. Research is an ongoing thing, but thank you for pointing out the source of the data and other points that you have raised. This will greatly assist me in making further edits to this section of UGLE history. Aquizard 20:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

These dates are citable fact, I have therefore put the citation needed in the sentence containing the "24 June, 1717" date. Grye 21:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"... the first Annual Assembly of the four London Lodges that came together on 24th June 1717 did not constitute in any sense a regulatory body." (SOURCE: Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England, at the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of Adelaide, June 1984)

"The other thing that we have to remember is that Catholics, in those days, could be Freemasons. In fact, it was the only organization in England that afforded them equality within society since the day King James VII of the Scots (James II of England) had been deposed. (He had wanted everyone within the boudaries of his kingdoms to worship according to their own conscience.) With the Stewarts out of the political picture in Britain, "liberty of conscience" and the concept of equality were firmly ousted. This meant that politics reverted back to the status quo, and no one but Anglicans had any rights at all. In order to retain this status quo, all lodges in England, or as many as possible, were to be taken over, subverted, even eradicated if necessary. Although 1717 saw a new, London-based Masonic impetus, working to restore the Stewarts to their rightful inheritance, the plan was foiled after the failure of the Atterbury plot to overthrow George I in 1722. In 1723, at the end of the Duke of Wharton's grand mastership, the Grand Lodge of England was taken over by Hanoverian infiltrators. (... It is interesting to note, in passing, that the lodge's archival records, from its inception in 1717 to June 24, 1723, have totally vanished.) (SOURCE: The Knights Templar of the Middle East by Michael James Alexander Stewart and Walid Amine Salhab, published by Weiser, 2007)

"I was the first person made a Freemason in London for many years. We had difficulty to find members enough to perform the ceremony!" (SOURCE: The diaries of William Stukeley FRS,FRCP,FSA, initiated 1722)

Reliable sources and three quotations provided by the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of All England (14 January 2009) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.134.234 (talk) 02:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• Looking back at this I realized who the fellow pushing for this stuff in the above post was, and he was (as I'm sure everyone already knows), pushing his own agenda, being the "Grand Secretary" of a Grand Lodge he claims to founded a freemason lodge. Apparent he was trying to use Wikipedia as a place to affirm his legitimacy and to advertise for his group. (Here's where someone can find information on this if they wish . Now I'm not concerned about *this guy* but since it appears thst some people were taking his claims seriously I would like to remind people to be aware that everything posted on the internet is not necessarily true, and we should be careful not to fall for people pushing for the agenda of their organizations on Wikipedia. Pepe Oats (talk) 14:00, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Coat of arms

It looks like someone deleted the coat of arms for UGLE from wiki. I'm guessing that the original uploader didn't put a link to the source of the file, and failed to put the copyright and fair use of logo information on the picture . . . If I had a copy of the file as a png, I'd upload it myself.--Vidkun 18:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pro grand master?

Could someone tell me what this is? Pro Grand or Pro-grand? It lists Spencer Compton, 7th Marquess of Northampton as this position. Is this below or above the grand master title listed? I am presuming below since they'd probably just list the senior position. Tyciol (talk) 04:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The Pro Grand Master is an appointed position in UGLE, to stand in for the MWGM when he is unable to preside over the Craft, many times, due to his Royal duties. It is subordinate to the GM, but superior to both the Deputy Grand Master and the Assistant Grand Master.[1] --Vidkun (talk) 16:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

History

This section hardly deals with the history of UGLE at all, but with the history of the moderns and ancients, and the formation of the new GL. The older lodges have their own articles, which could be linked, and the entire section streamlined, and retitled Formation. Maybe then we could have a section on the actual history. I would like to invite discussion before wading in. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Masonic Ceremonies

A German secret society of the XIX Century, 'The Oculists', devoted to spreading the right techniques for cataract surgery, and to blocking 'charlatans' from doing this type of surgical procedure, wrote also a book, named 'Copiale', in which they described all the ceremonies that were conducted in 'Francmason's' societies as 'Initiation' to its different grades; the Swedish University of Uppsala found the way to decipher the text, and offers an English translation of the description of masonic ceremonies collected by the Oculists, as well as the original text, and the code used for ciphering, the text is of open access in the web, it can be searched with the key word 'Copiale', or perhaps in the Uppsala University website. Enjoy it!. -attention, copiale is also an Spanish verb tense meaning 'copy it', so you can find some mesh in looking for copiale- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.155.169.59 (talk) 17:01, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Foundation date (again)

I've just changed the date of foundation to 1813, then noticed the previous discussion. The UGLE gives the date of its own formation as 1813, although it claims descent from the first GL formed in 1717. I feel strongly that the two should not be confused, partly because the actual masonry of UGLE owes its form to the Antients and NOT the 1717 lot, but mainly because the first London Grand Lodge was definitely NOT the United Grand Lodge of England. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:32, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

District Grand Lodges

The single sentence about the District Grand Lodges creates the impression that they are fairly minor "subsidiary" organisations. Some of the 33 DGLs in fact consist of entire countries - and collectively cover most of the Commonwealth. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:02, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I refer you to the top of this page, where the article is rated as "Start Class" - or a bit basic. Please feel free to add suitably referenced details. That's how Wikipedia works. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:40, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Updated Fiddlersmouth (talk) 01:27, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

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District Grand Lodge

Are district grand lodges under the UGLE notable enough to warrant their own articles? United Grand Lodge of Bengal has its own article (also noticed that it's under the wrong name just now). I personally don't think they are noteworthy enough to have their own articles and, if necessary, can be briefly mentioned here. EDIT: I've fixed the issue with the article's name, but the other concern is still there.Pepe Oats (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Petition for Charter or Dispensation

To whom it may concern,

My name is Chauncey Brantley and I'm a member of Rising Star Lodge #2 of Dallas,Texas in the jurisdiction of St John Union Grand Lodge of Texas Prince Hall Origin, National Compact USA. I am a PM by service as well as a Noble. My main concern is my lodge and I are looking to move our membership to A. F. & A. M. in hopes of continuing to spread the cement of brotherly love in harmony. I've done a little research on A. F. & A. M. and we like what they do as far as giving back to others and truly support one another without bias. I've been traveling almost 9 years in this jurisdiction and there's just no progress going forward especially knowledge. I'm asking what do we ( Rising Star Lodge #2) need to do to be a part of A. F. & A. M. to continue our growth in the Craft besides being financial and of good report? 2600:1700:59E1:1200:3423:9F49:9A71:7210 (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)