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No parliament means no democracy in United States

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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No parliament means no democracy in United States. It's a representative republic. Democracies don't have the electoral college and US does. Renegadeviking (talk) 01:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that verify this claim? Because if this is just your opinion of what a democracy is, we can't act on that, and even with reliable sources per WP:EXTRAORDINARY they'd need to be very good and compelling sources, because that's quite a claim. - Aoidh (talk) 02:01, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/about

https://www.heritage.org/american-founders/report/america-republic-not-democracyhttps://www.govinfo.gov/features/us-electoral-college https://www.govinfo.gov/features/us-electoral-college — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renegadeviking (talk • contribs) 02:04, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

None of these support what you're saying, that "democracies don't have the electoral college." It may not be the exact type of whatever democracy you're thinking of, but that doesn't mean it isn't one itself. - Aoidh (talk) 02:10, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

• The Heritage foundation is a think tank with a clear bias when it comes to American politics. They're not a reliable source for facts. And the other sources don't say what you're asserting. --Aquillion (talk) 03:40, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Democracies don't have 435 Congressmen in House of Representatives with who knows how many districts that are supposed to be loyal to voters. Then USA has without any vote of no confidence like in parliament so that's not democracies. 3 branches of government. In US there is impeachment. Democracies come from Ancient Greece. Ancient Romans have Senators or Senates. No other constitutional republics have God in the writing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renegadeviking (talk • contribs) 03:56, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

First, please sign your comments so we know who is saying what is being said. Second, that you personally feel that it is not a democracy because of whatever criteria is ultimately irrelevant; we go by what reliable sources say, not with what we feel is true. - Aoidh (talk) 04:37, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Except USA has http://keywiki.org. Democrats are trying to erase servers and history. We need the Wayback machine more these days. https://bensguide.gpo.gov/m-constitution Renegadeviking (talk • contribs) 03:56, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Whatever that website is, and I feel like we're getting into conspiracy theory territory here, but it's irrelevant to the point you're trying to make and does not change why your assertion about democracy and the United States is inaccurate. But we're getting off track. Do you have an issue with anything in the article, do you have a proposal for an alternate wording or removal of a specific wording, and do you have reliable sources to back up that proposed change? Anything short of that and this discussion should honestly be closed as it's getting off-topic. - Aoidh (talk) 04:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, that isn't correct, and doesn't really make sense. The US is a representative democracy, or a republic. It's not a direct democracy. But there is a legislature elected by popular election, similar to parliament. And we don't have a monarchy, unlike the UK, which has a fossilized vestige that could still technically dissolve parliament. Andre🚐 02:08, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

The british have a nice encyclopedia saying its a constitutional republic. https://www.britannica.com/place/United-States Renegadeviking (talk • contribs) 03:56, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Democratic Centralism in Marxism-Leninism doesn't make sense either and that's not democracy either. Democratic German Republic (east germany) doesn't make sense as a title, because it's a dictatorship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renegadeviking (talk • contribs) 02:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

A constitutional republic is a type of democracy. And apparently you're coming here making statements from Kari Lake[1]. Andre🚐 06:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle) Renegadeviking (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Huh? I've been to that statue, he has a little red hand to show the blood on his hand. But - are you really seriously suggesting that if there's a statue of Lenin, that means the US not a democracy? Andre🚐 21:36, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

America is a republic, not a democracy, is a frequent slogan of some elements of the U.S. radical right, such as the John Birch Society. In the end however it comes down to semantics. The way they define it, the U.S. is not a democracy although it is according to how the term is normally understood today. While the discussion is worthy of coverage in Wikipedia, this is not the article to do that. TFD (talk) 13:50, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle Renegadeviking (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

FWIW - Parliamentary systems tend to have appointed prime ministers, hereditary monarchs, and some have presidents chosen solely by their parliaments. GoodDay (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

The USA is a 'constitutional republic'. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, the US is a liberal democracy. It is one of the canonical examples of a liberal democracy, arguably even the first liberal democracy. It is also a republic both in the sense that we understand it as Americans (a country whose citizens elect people to represent them indirectly) and in the more general sense (a country which has no monarch). The US is indeed a democracy, and any arguments that it is not do not belong here. I highly, HIGHLY suggest that you, Renegadeviking drop the stick and stop pushing this before you get blocked. We've had this argument way, WAY too many times. And no, a parliament is not a requirement for a country to be a democracy, and it's ridiculous to say that it is. -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 00:01, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

edit warring protection

red alert

@Dhtwiki:,@Hi3d 2:, please discuss the matter here. Sniping in edit summaries is not how we resolve content disputes, and further edit warring will get you both blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:14, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Dont think they can reply here...as per protection level....that said dont support inclusion..... infobox not the place to list members of the president's Cabinet, Moxy- 16:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Well crap, it has been brought to my attention that, due to EC protection on this page it is not actually possible for Hi3d 2 to discuss the matter here. @Roy Smith: as protecting admin. I seem to have got us into a bit of a pickle here, I don't want to drop the full protection of the article until there are reasonable assurances that the edit warring is over, but the disputing parties can't have a two-way discussion of it because of the talkpage protection, and also I have to go to work shortly and won't be around the rest of the day. thoughts? Beeblebrox (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok ok, I'm supposed to be good at breaking the Gordian knot in these types of situations, I've done the simplest thing and just granted the EC right temporarily to Hid, for the explicit purpose of commenting here. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Still a problem as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Awolf58/Archive....but easily identifiable could drop protection on talk see what happens. Moxy- 16:39, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Page should've been protected, in its longstanding form. GoodDay (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it makes sense that only top leaders of the 3 branches of government should be listed. The President leases the executive, VP and Speaker for Senate and House, Chief Justice for SCOTUS Bokmanrocks01 (talk) 16:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

But the Secretary of State is basically the US representative of foreign countries and also the highest ranking cabinet member apart from the VP and the highest ranking secratary of what is probably the most important segment of the president's cabinet. Hi3d 2 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Dhtwiki is understandably put out because this has been debated, RfC'ed to death, and is among the FAQs. Blinken, like Pompeo and Clinton before him, lobbies and prods the president, but ultimately he's an adviser in the executive branch. Mason.Jones (talk) 19:27, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

They aren't just an adviser though, he/she is responsible for many aspects of the united states foreign relations and management, and as for being the highest ranking secratarial member, that deserves atleast a mention. Hi3d 2 (talk) 20:15, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Restore the longstanding version - the president, vice president, speaker & chief justice. GoodDay (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

What's the reasoning? Hi3d 2 (talk) 20:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

SoS, doesn't head any of the federal government's three branches & there's nothing you can post, that'll change my view on this. GoodDay (talk) 21:11, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore. If you attempt to force your changes again (after the protection has expired)? I'll support having you blocked. GoodDay (talk) 21:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, Dhtwiki should have set up a talkpage himself justifying the deletion before blindly deleting it in my eyes, also on what and which conditions does the leader have to be heading a federal branch? Hi3d 2 (talk) 21:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

But you're the one changing longstanding form. It's not up to us to just accept any change to the page. See WP:BRD (i.e. be Bold, but once Reverted, Discuss). I thought that I was giving my reasons for reverting in an explicit and civil enough manner. If we were to start a talk page discussion every time an edit is contested, whoa mama. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

P.S. Since you weren't extended confirmed, you would not have been able to engage here, anyway. I would have merely recapitulated my edit summaries, and others might have chimed in, confirming what I said. But you also could have consulted the archives, to find out that it was indeed consensus to not list officials, other than those mentioned in the constitution. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

P.P.S. Your not being able to post here, because you're not extended confirmed, probably had something to do with the page being fully protected. So, before that, you should have been able. Talk page access isn't denied to anyone, usually. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:06, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The talk page was extended confirmed before, I should've chatted to you on your talk-page admittedly. If we all aren't on the same boat here and your primary reason for the sos being taken down is it not being mentioned in the constitution then shouldn't the pro tempore be mentioned? Also my reason for adding the SoS is just because it is the highest secretary, and even though it isn't listed in the constitution I thought it'd be a useful one to be pinned in infobox. Hi3d 2 (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The more items that go into the infobox the less impactful (and less useful to readers in terms of highlighting importance) each item is. CMD (talk) 16:25, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I now see, per the message that appears in my edit window, that the talk page was specifically and temporarily protected due to a reason completely unrelated to the article being protected. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I leave this talk page for less than three days, and we're already into another dispute. I guess this is what I signed up for...Anyway, I say do not include Blinken because he is of lesser importance compared to the other figures in the infobox. Primarily per Bokmanrocks and CMD. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 16:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

What about someone like Leahy? Hi3d 2 (talk) 20:30, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

We decided that the president pro tempore of the Senate would not be listed, even though that office is mentioned in the constitution, IIRC. We must have drawn a line to exclude from the infobox officials that weren't mentioned, but that didn't mean we were necessarily going to include all that were. Such discussions are in the archives (see here, here, and here, for example). Dhtwiki (talk) 04:48, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Leahy isn't included, because Harris is already there. The US vice president is also president of the US Senate. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• The Secretary of State was not included in the infobox before, and there is no reason to include him now. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 00:06, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Someone who has edit access may want to fix the order of the Chief Justice. Right now it has John Roberts’s name in the list of roles. Psherman122 (talk) 02:21, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• It's always been that way. Don't you want to be the next John Roberts of the Supreme Court? --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:05, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Fixed, while maintaining the rest of the extremely wrong version that's currently protected. --Golbez (talk) 14:08, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Redirect to Americas VS USA

Shouldnt this redirect to the Americas? Or is the US really that synonymous with America? Or is the latter just an non-americas/n-person bias? Nsae Comp (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm assuming you came here via America, and yes, in English it really is. --Golbez (talk) 20:50, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The reasoning is that most people typing in America are looking for the U.S. As explained in Americas#English, English speakers generally mean the U.S. when they say "America." TFD (talk) 22:05, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The Spanish-speaking world is not the English-speaking world, and this is reflected in Wikipedia usage(s). Mason.Jones (talk) 16:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I would expect that the Spanish Wikipedia redirects "America" to "Americas". -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 06:37, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

In fact, in the Spanish Wikipedia, Americas re-directs to America,[2] since they consider it to be one continent. The naming of articles depends on the terminology used by native speakers, whether English, Spanish or any other. TFD (talk) 11:19, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you all for the clarification, it does make sense. I just wonder if this, or something like this explanation, can be mentioned in the Etymology chapter, similarly but maybe shorter, like in the Americas article and its Etymology chapter. Note: Such an addition would need to be careful to explain the different use by explaining it through the different use in language and avoid saying something like "people from the US", e.g. simply because there is a large spanish population in the US. ... Ill now add a {{Further}} link to the Americas#Terminology because I think thats a good start and it is very well elaborated there (ill refer to this here). I hope thats okay with everyone. Nsae Comp (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

IP's table about the government

I lack the motivation to do something about this, but yeah, someone should probably tell them to stop. --Golbez (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll second it. Please stop! Mason.Jones (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

The article is protected again, the two IP sockpuppets have been blocked, and all of their edits should have been removed. My apologies for your edit about the death penalty that got swept away in the revert. 🙁 Bgsu98 (talk) 23:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

First documented European arrival

I would suggest that this sentence in the article needs review: “The first documented arrival of Europeans in the continental United States is that of Spanish conquistadors such as Juan Ponce de León”. The “such as” really doesn’t fly in a sentence like this - if it’s the first documented arrival, either state who it was, or state that it isn’t known, and why? MapReader (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Use of term "attempted" to describe secession of southern states

The state governments that declared secession did not successfully secede. It was an attempt to secede from the United States of America that was unsuccessful. That is why they are part of the United States of America now. To discuss it in any other terms is to imply that succession was somehow successful, legal and constitutional which it isn't and never was. Shoreranger (talk) 19:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You've got a few hours to talk things out here. I strongly suggest not restarting the edit war when protection expires. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The WP link Secession in the United States clearly states, in the first sentence, that "In the context of the United States, secession primarily refers to the voluntary withdrawal of one or more states from the Union that constitutes the United States." This is why every Civil War book I've read clearly states that the 11 Confederate states "seceded from the Union." They dissolved all links to the U.S. Congress and withdrew their representatives. They didn't return to the Union until after they petitioned the U.S. Congress, separately, to return. To say, as editor Shoreranger has it, that the Confederate military "attempted secession" is awkward at best, bogus history at worst. And of course the Union didn't recognize secession, but the article is clear that it happened and that the Army of Northern Virginia didn't "attempt" secession through military action. I am more than willing to find better wording; the editor is being stubborn to refuse any compromise. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The article you refer to later contradicts your own arguement:

"The most serious attempt at secession was advanced in the years 1860 and 1861 as 11 Southern states each declared secession from the United States, and joined together to form the Confederate States of America, a procedure and body that the [northern] government of the United States refused to accept. The movement collapsed in 1865 with the defeat of Confederate forces by Union armies in the American Civil War."

Again, to "declare" and to "attempt" is not the same as actually achieving a given thing. Shoreranger (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You just don't get it. The CSA declared its secession, and yet its military is "attempting" secession? That's the kind of historical inaccuracy that bedevils Wikipedia, often based on terrible miswording. This is definitely the case here, where you insist on saying that the Confederate military is "attempting secession." Sorry, that pearl must go. As I said, there are other ways to be more accurate and less off the mark than your unfortunate sentence. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:32, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Confederate generals don't secede: states secede and - in this case - they attempt to secede but failed. Shoreranger (talk) 20:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The Confederacy has already "attempted secession"—after each of the 11 states voted and the declaration was made. Waiting until the generals and their military campaigns ("In order to attempt secession, the Confederacy initiated military action") is inaccurate. "To attain their ultimate goal of separation from the United States" is clearer. There are options other than a very bad sentence. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

"To attain their ultimate goal of separation from the United States" is a false statement. They did not attain that goal, only attempted it. Shoreranger (talk) 14:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Secession was "attempted" before military action was initiated. U.S. government offices, city halls, and military garrisons flew the CSA flag. Their Northern staffs were expelled. It was all illegal in the eyes of the Union, but it happened. The Confederacy didn't "attempt secession" beginning with military campaigns. It sought to carry out secession and be recognized by the European powers as a sovereign country. Your sentence is no less flawed, inaccurate, and ahistorical than before. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Precisely because the states that declared secession were not recognized by foreign nations is a huge contribution to the determination that their succession attempt was never successful, the rebellious factions were defeated and the nation they attempted to create never came to fruition. The entire time the Confederacy claimed legitimacy it was always contested by the United States and never accepted by foreign powers. Not until it would be uncontested and/or recognized by foreign governments could it be considered successful in its attempt at secession, and neither of those things ever happened. Shoreranger (talk) 16:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence, Shoreranger—your sentence is the problem. I've never once encountered the analysis that CSA military action "attempted secession"—not in any Civil War book. This is simply muddled phraseology, and unsourced as well. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

So far, an alternative sentence that does not imply the Confederacy successfully seceded from the United States has not been proposed. You insist on interpreting the very clear, and sourced at least by your own reference ("The most serious attempt at secession was advanced in the years 1860 and 1861"), use of the term "attempt" as somehow "muddled", but that does not make it so - as evidenced by repeated demonstrations that it is more factual than any alternatives yet proposed, as well as entirely accurate. Shoreranger (talk) 17:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether it was legal or illegal, it was still secession. The CSA remained in control of the rebellious states until they were defeated. In the meantime, the U.S. government endeavored to return the states to the union. The United States itself was created through secession from Britain. But no one celebrates May 12, 1784, the day on which the Treaty of Versailles came into effect. In more recent times, we say that Russia annexed Crimea, although it has not been recognized and may possibly be reversed in the near future. TFD (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The United States independence from Britain was successful and recognized internationally, precisely because it was able to permanently exercise sovereignty by expelling Britain. Had the US lost the Revolutionary War it would have just been another failed rebellion - like the Confederacy - and not a secession that was reversed somehow. Because the US won the Rev War it can claim the point is declared independence as its birth, but if it had lost it would just be the start of a rebellion not the establishment of a successful secession. Until a secession is successful it is an attempt at separation, not a separation. During the Civil War the US did not recognize the state governments that seceded, and never recognized that any states "left" so they never had to be "returned" - what had to happen was a rebellion be defeated and a legitimate government restored in those states, which is what happened. Had the CSA won the war it would have successfully seceded, but it lost so it never did. Shoreranger (talk) 19:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Shoreranger, I don't have a problem with that, just with one very weird sentence, where you "interpret" something that is inaccurate, the statement unsourced. Suggestion: Remove the words "In order to attempt secession," so sentence begins with "The Confederacy initiated..." Mason.Jones (talk) 20:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence could be changed to "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." and just leave it at that, but it would still be "unsourced" as you say. Shoreranger (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Only four countries recognized the states before Great Britain: France (1778), the Netherlands (1782), Spain (1783) and Sweden (1783). Are you saying that we don't actually know if a country seceded until years later when other countries recognize it and it becomes irreversible? TFD (talk) 14:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Shoreranger -- WP links alone will fully justify the shorter sentence; adding the first battle ("beginning with...", linked to WP article) would give the sentence a needed reference point. Right now, there's no source for your "the Confederate military attempted secession", whereas the rest of the sentence is common knowledge and easily linked. I've been more than willing to compromise. You've been stubborn and, with that last reply, snippy. The current sentence remains nonsensical, unencyclopedic POV. All you are doing in this discussion is giving historical background that in no way justifies the current sentence. In fact, it's totally off topic. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

So, you *don't* want to change the sentence to "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." now? Shoreranger (talk) 13:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

No, I do want that wording, but you replied that even the shorter sentence is "unsourced". I said it was common knowledge, but if disputed by others, it could be linked to other WP articles about the war. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Then that's the end of it. The new sentence should read "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." End of discussion. Shoreranger (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Use of term "attempted" to describe secession of southern states

The state governments that declared secession did not successfully secede. It was an attempt to secede from the United States of America that was unsuccessful. That is why they are part of the United States of America now. To discuss it in any other terms is to imply that succession was somehow successful, legal and constitutional which it isn't and never was. Shoreranger (talk) 19:48, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You've got a few hours to talk things out here. I strongly suggest not restarting the edit war when protection expires. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:53, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The WP link Secession in the United States clearly states, in the first sentence, that "In the context of the United States, secession primarily refers to the voluntary withdrawal of one or more states from the Union that constitutes the United States." This is why every Civil War book I've read clearly states that the 11 Confederate states "seceded from the Union." They dissolved all links to the U.S. Congress and withdrew their representatives. They didn't return to the Union until after they petitioned the U.S. Congress, separately, to return. To say, as editor Shoreranger has it, that the Confederate military "attempted secession" is awkward at best, bogus history at worst. And of course the Union didn't recognize secession, but the article is clear that it happened and that the Army of Northern Virginia didn't "attempt" secession through military action. I am more than willing to find better wording; the editor is being stubborn to refuse any compromise. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The article you refer to later contradicts your own arguement:

"The most serious attempt at secession was advanced in the years 1860 and 1861 as 11 Southern states each declared secession from the United States, and joined together to form the Confederate States of America, a procedure and body that the [northern] government of the United States refused to accept. The movement collapsed in 1865 with the defeat of Confederate forces by Union armies in the American Civil War."

Again, to "declare" and to "attempt" is not the same as actually achieving a given thing. Shoreranger (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

You just don't get it. The CSA declared its secession, and yet its military is "attempting" secession? That's the kind of historical inaccuracy that bedevils Wikipedia, often based on terrible miswording. This is definitely the case here, where you insist on saying that the Confederate military is "attempting secession." Sorry, that pearl must go. As I said, there are other ways to be more accurate and less off the mark than your unfortunate sentence. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:32, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Confederate generals don't secede: states secede and - in this case - they attempt to secede but failed. Shoreranger (talk) 20:35, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The Confederacy has already "attempted secession"—after each of the 11 states voted and the declaration was made. Waiting until the generals and their military campaigns ("In order to attempt secession, the Confederacy initiated military action") is inaccurate. "To attain their ultimate goal of separation from the United States" is clearer. There are options other than a very bad sentence. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

"To attain their ultimate goal of separation from the United States" is a false statement. They did not attain that goal, only attempted it. Shoreranger (talk) 14:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Secession was "attempted" before military action was initiated. U.S. government offices, city halls, and military garrisons flew the CSA flag. Their Northern staffs were expelled. It was all illegal in the eyes of the Union, but it happened. The Confederacy didn't "attempt secession" beginning with military campaigns. It sought to carry out secession and be recognized by the European powers as a sovereign country. Your sentence is no less flawed, inaccurate, and ahistorical than before. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Precisely because the states that declared secession were not recognized by foreign nations is a huge contribution to the determination that their succession attempt was never successful, the rebellious factions were defeated and the nation they attempted to create never came to fruition. The entire time the Confederacy claimed legitimacy it was always contested by the United States and never accepted by foreign powers. Not until it would be uncontested and/or recognized by foreign governments could it be considered successful in its attempt at secession, and neither of those things ever happened. Shoreranger (talk) 16:05, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence, Shoreranger—your sentence is the problem. I've never once encountered the analysis that CSA military action "attempted secession"—not in any Civil War book. This is simply muddled phraseology, and unsourced as well. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:20, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

So far, an alternative sentence that does not imply the Confederacy successfully seceded from the United States has not been proposed. You insist on interpreting the very clear, and sourced at least by your own reference ("The most serious attempt at secession was advanced in the years 1860 and 1861"), use of the term "attempt" as somehow "muddled", but that does not make it so - as evidenced by repeated demonstrations that it is more factual than any alternatives yet proposed, as well as entirely accurate. Shoreranger (talk) 17:26, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether it was legal or illegal, it was still secession. The CSA remained in control of the rebellious states until they were defeated. In the meantime, the U.S. government endeavored to return the states to the union. The United States itself was created through secession from Britain. But no one celebrates May 12, 1784, the day on which the Treaty of Versailles came into effect. In more recent times, we say that Russia annexed Crimea, although it has not been recognized and may possibly be reversed in the near future. TFD (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The United States independence from Britain was successful and recognized internationally, precisely because it was able to permanently exercise sovereignty by expelling Britain. Had the US lost the Revolutionary War it would have just been another failed rebellion - like the Confederacy - and not a secession that was reversed somehow. Because the US won the Rev War it can claim the point is declared independence as its birth, but if it had lost it would just be the start of a rebellion not the establishment of a successful secession. Until a secession is successful it is an attempt at separation, not a separation. During the Civil War the US did not recognize the state governments that seceded, and never recognized that any states "left" so they never had to be "returned" - what had to happen was a rebellion be defeated and a legitimate government restored in those states, which is what happened. Had the CSA won the war it would have successfully seceded, but it lost so it never did. Shoreranger (talk) 19:12, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

@Shoreranger, I don't have a problem with that, just with one very weird sentence, where you "interpret" something that is inaccurate, the statement unsourced. Suggestion: Remove the words "In order to attempt secession," so sentence begins with "The Confederacy initiated..." Mason.Jones (talk) 20:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

The sentence could be changed to "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." and just leave it at that, but it would still be "unsourced" as you say. Shoreranger (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Only four countries recognized the states before Great Britain: France (1778), the Netherlands (1782), Spain (1783) and Sweden (1783). Are you saying that we don't actually know if a country seceded until years later when other countries recognize it and it becomes irreversible? TFD (talk) 14:49, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Shoreranger -- WP links alone will fully justify the shorter sentence; adding the first battle ("beginning with...", linked to WP article) would give the sentence a needed reference point. Right now, there's no source for your "the Confederate military attempted secession", whereas the rest of the sentence is common knowledge and easily linked. I've been more than willing to compromise. You've been stubborn and, with that last reply, snippy. The current sentence remains nonsensical, unencyclopedic POV. All you are doing in this discussion is giving historical background that in no way justifies the current sentence. In fact, it's totally off topic. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

So, you *don't* want to change the sentence to "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." now? Shoreranger (talk) 13:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

No, I do want that wording, but you replied that even the shorter sentence is "unsourced". I said it was common knowledge, but if disputed by others, it could be linked to other WP articles about the war. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Then that's the end of it. The new sentence should read "The Confederacy initiated military action and the Union responded in kind." End of discussion. Shoreranger (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

RFC: Manifest destiny in US history

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the United States article mention the term "manifest destiny" as one of the justifications for territorial expansion? Andre🚐 15:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support, proposer, this a standard American history topic in most textbooks, and also appears frequently in reliable sources, some of which are already used in the article. this one for example, is already cited in the history section, and a cursory search reveals many more descriptions of this topic. Andre🚐 16:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Standard history" can be mentioned without the bizarre digression about one political party, some of whose members were imbued by a cultural idea. As it now reads (U.S. territorial expansion and imperialism was a controversial topic, justified by some such as Jacksonian Democrats, by the concept of manifest destiny. Lincoln Republicans and anti-imperialists did not support manifest destiny), it fails any encyclopedic test. Mason.Jones (talk) 18:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support at least some mention somewhere. It was a major part of US history, has overwhelming coverage, and therefore deserves at least a brief mention here. I don't understand the objection that it is a "bizarre digression about one political party" - it's a basic, core part of American history, not a digression. As a note, the text is longstanding and was only removed a few days ago. It had previously been present in some form for about eight months. -Aquillion (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support inclusion. I don't know if "justification" is the right term, but it was a concept widely recognized and debated in the nineteenth century. Not everyone agreed with it. A brief mention and link to Manifest destiny article would be appropriate. Glendoremus (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
• Comment This RfC follows a discussion about the following insertion of text: Beginning in the late 18th century, American settlers began to expand westward with the ideology of manifest destiny, prompting a long series of American Indian Wars.[3] There was no objection to mentioning manifest destiny, just its insertion into this sentence. There are a lot of problems with the wording, such as the fact that Manifest Destiny was not developed until the 19th century. So basically, this RfC will accomplish nothing and should be closed. TFD (talk) 19:43, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  False, TFD. @Dhtwiki stated above, "manifest destiny" doesn't belong in the article, in addition to Mason's commentary above. Furthermore, as Aquillion notes, the text was removed by KlayCax on August 24. Previously, it had probably always been in the article, or at least for a while, since it's a basic core concept in American History. If all disputants agree that it should be included, I will close the RFC. Andre🚐 19:52, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  I stand corrected. One editor objected to its inclusion. But what happens if this RfC results in "Include?" Then we go back to the discvussion and you still have to explain what should be said and where it goes. Why not figure that out before inviting the community to comment? TFD (talk) 20:36, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  If we all agree it should be included, we could snow close the RFC and move on to the workshopping of how to include it. It's hard to workshop the text if people are going to be arguing that it shouldn't be in at all, which is apparently Mason's position in this RFC, but in the prior section he also made some rather grandiose objections. So let's get this out of the way. An uninvolved editor may come snow close this RFC in favor of inclusion, that'd be great. Andre🚐 20:42, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support A page that gets half a million page views a year and is considered high importance at WikiProject U.S. history should be included in one form or another. Besides, 366,000 results on Google Scholar is certainly nothing to scoff at. It appears to be a significantly discussed topic and should be included.

• Unclear wording of RfC/strongly oppose in lead I'm uncertain on whether this RfC is referring a mention of "Manifest Destiny" in the lead or body of the article. It would be objectively wrong to reinstate the previous wording: which stated/implied Manifest Destiny was the sole — or even primary — reason for the country's territorial expansion. As the article on the topic states (see citations on the article): Historians have emphasized that "manifest destiny" was always contested —Democrats endorsed the idea but the large majority of Whigs and many prominent Americans (such as Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant) rejected the concept. Historian Daniel Walker Howe writes, "American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity while the Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than conquest. The term was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the Mexican–American War and it was also used to negotiate the Oregon boundary dispute. Historian Frederick Merk says manifest destiny always limped along because of its internal limitations and the issue of slavery, and never became a national priority of the United States. By 1843, former U.S. President John Quincy Adams, originally a major supporter of the concept underlying manifest destiny, had changed his mind and repudiated expansionism because it meant the expansion of slavery in Texas. Although it would WP: Due if contextualized as a dispute between the Whigs and expansionist Democrats. KlayCax (talk) 20:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

  The RFC is clear, this is about whether or not to mention manifest destiny in the article at all, since it is not mentioned right now, and we don't all agree that it should be. Andre🚐 20:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I support inclusion in the body: as long as the dispute between the American Whigs and Democrats is (quickly) contextualized. KlayCax (talk) 20:28, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good, thank you! Andre🚐 20:35, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

No problem! :) KlayCax (talk) 20:45, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

No one opposes "a mention of manifest destiny," including me. That doesn't mean Andrevan's current sentence is acceptable history; it's also very poor English. The WP article manifest destiny can't be summed up by such an outtake about some politicians of one political party. As for the earlier sentence ("American settlers began to expand westward with the ideology of manifest destiny"), that's utter hogwash. Yes to contexualization. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:54, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

The RFC was not proposed about my specific sentence, I proposed several constructive sentences, and you weren't playing ball. You grandstanded and accused me of "a moral crusade that relies on sowing doubt and innuendo." Maybe it's your turn to propose a constructive sentence. If you do not oppose mentioning manifest destiny, you shouldn't oppose as you did above. Andre🚐 21:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

All I had to go on was your sentence, which you offered up as some sort of succinct history. It was badly worded, didn't do justice to the WP article, and was rather ideological. I also thought it was unsalvageable. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Mason, this RFC was declared to determine affirmatively that manifest destiny must be present in this article. If we can agree on that, I suggest you propose how and where it should be included. Andre🚐 21:22, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support - (Summoned by bot) It does seem to be WP:DUE in the context of the expansion of the United States, especially if it can be contextualized in the prose appropriately. - Aoidh (talk) 00:37, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

  Agree with above; context is everything in this case.Mwinog2777 (talk) 01:36, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose – as undue, especially for the lead, but as well as for the article as presently written. It's a phrase, hinted at by Jackson in an 1824 speech, that implied that the US should extend its population and democratic ways from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from Canada to Mexico, a phrase that became tied to the much-contested question of annexing Texas. It was just a slogan, one that was extended to cover more purely colonialistic ventures – such as the annexations after the Spanish–American War, where settlement and eventual admittance to the Union wasn't an aim – a usage that diluted what it originally stood for. It's not a coherent philosophy that motivated all expansionist impulses, although it may have come to have seemed so; and I don't find mention of it in books that I have where I would expect full treatments of it. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:09, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

@Dhtwiki: It will not stand if it's presented as a doctrine or governmental philosophy or significant impulse for westward expansion. The WP article on MD says no such thing; it was a cultural idea and so it's not significant enough for the lead. If mentioned in the body, it will match the WP link, with no ideological hype or spin. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Only aware of Canadian POV....but in our text books we talk about "manifest destiny" as a reason for the war of 1812. Ameranc source ...says somthing odd ... "The United States fended off the British for a second straight time" ...that is odd as Canada felt it was invaded not the other way around. Moxy- 17:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support there should definetely be content about and a wikilink to Manifest destiny, and it is obvious that it should be in the context of territorial expansion. ––FormalDude (talk) 11:04, 3 September 2022 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
• Support. I mean of course. I've probably heard or read this phrase like 10,000 times in my life. It's basically the first term you think of when you think of America's expansion. I have no idea how you want to handle it. "Manifest Destiny was term given to genocidal imperialism" or whatever. "Manifest Destiny is term not used at the time but is now an idiom". "Manifest Destiny was a term used by a handful of lawless fringe settlers, but is now common because [reasons]". But something. If it's an entirely misleading term and has nothing to with anything that people actually did or gave as an excuse, say that. Herostratus (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• In principle support per Glendoremus, however this doesn't mean just crowbar it in anywhere, and I'm not particularly enamored with any of the actual textual examples suggested so far. CMD (talk) 09:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

@Herostratus: The passage will be "some thing", but not any ridiculous thing. @Chipmunkdavis: The previous mention of MD in the lead was worse than a crowbar. The editor who removed it deserves a barnstar. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Right, that's all I was saying. I don't watch this article or know much about the subject... it's up to you all to decide the details of how it's presented. Herostratus (talk) 03:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support — This is a commonly accepted fact by U.S. and foreign historians and the scholarly sources provided by others will reflect such. Wikipedia should not be sugarcoated like a 20th century American high school textbook. Yue🌙 19:36, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support including manifest destiny in the article with appropriate explanation, placement, and context. Oppose its inclusion in the specific sentence cited by TFD. I suspect the real issue is just what counts as appropriate explanation, placement and context. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:43, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
• Bad RFC question This question really seems a bit out of the blue. Manifest Destiny almost certainly should be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article. However, I agree with others, it should not be in the sentence in question. That sentence implies that a settler moving west for what ever reason was doing so in part for reasons that reflect a claim related to a national consciousness. Individuals who went west were far more likely to go west with hopes that they would be more prosperous than they were in the east. Policy makers and thought leaders of the time might have felt it was good for the nation to do this and thus craft favorable laws and favorable articles to encourage people to move west and settle the lands. However, the individuals are almost certainly going to be doing this for personal/self focused reasons, not for the purpose of the nation. So, I guess that means I would probably support inclusion (we need to see the sourcing here) but would not support as it was used. I will also note, as used it does not appear to have any sourcing. If it fails WP:V then that should be removed regardless of the outcome of this RfC. Springee (talk) 15:42, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

  This discussion has been stale for a while and should be closed but, 1) it was not out of the blue but followed several reverts and discussion which is now archived, 2) the RFC was not on a specific sentence but to establish that the concept of manifest destiny should be used as a justification in the article, 3) the concepts and proposed wording were in fact well-sourced. Please refer to the archived discussion. Andre🚐 17:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edits by KlayCax

Are the edits made by Klaycax politically neutral as it makes the democrats look more rational than the republicans? Mitch199811 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that there are certainly neutrality issues with the text and such major additions should be discussed here if they are to stay. The text added should probably be trimmed and summarized significantly in any case as some of it appears undue. With regards to neutrality, there are clearly issues with how it's written or the sources chosen. For example, the section states that "Polarization among U.S. legislators is asymmetric and concentrated within the Republican Party". However the Pew Research Centre source states that "Both parties have moved further away from the ideological center since the early 1970s. Democrats on average have become somewhat more liberal, while Republicans on average have become much more conservative". The source for the claim that only a small minority of Democrats identify as social democrats is from 2001. That 2001 source is also used to say there are presently no left-wing parties in the US. It definitely is contentious to say that the current Democratic Party in 2022 isn't a left-wing party. It should also not be written as fact that Democratic backsliding is essentially only Trump's fault. That debate should be left on Democratic backsliding in the United States. An Opinion article is also used as a source for the statement that "A majority of members within the Republican Party tend to hold right-wing to far-right views while a majority of members of the Democratic Party hold centrist and liberal views." Nettless (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy ping: KlayCax. ––FormalDude (talk) 13:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• Most of the content added by KlayCax is neutrally written and verifiable, but some of it may be undue weight, and there may be room to improve wording. Nettless brings up some points I agree with and some points that I disagree with:

1. The sentence about the asymmetry of polarization is evidenced by the source stating that Republicans have become much more conservative comparatively than Democrats have become liberal.
2. The democratic backsliding that has occurred recently is indeed largely attributed to Trumpism, but the U.S. has experienced democratic backsliding since the early 1980s (and the source used calls this the "third wave" of backsliding).
3. I don't think it is contentious to say that the current Democratic Party in 2022 isn't a left-wing party. Left-wing politics generally has a different meaning globally than it does in the United States, and my understanding is that academic sources do not at all consider the American Democractic party to be left-wing.
4. That a majority of members within the Republican Party tend to hold right-wing to far-right views is something that definetely should not be sourced to an oped. I'm also not sure that that is the case of Republicans views–at least it doesn't seem to be how we describe them at Republican Party (United States).

––FormalDude (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

I largely agree with FormalDude here, although the sourcing on the fourth point is pretty strong by my estimation, with one source published by Oxford University Press. And I also strongly agree with the second point about democratic backsliding starting earlier in the 1980s. Might be worth a mention given what sources say.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The article blames the U.S. status as a flawed democracy on Trump. In fact it became a flawed democracy the year before he assumed office. And while it continued to decline during his administration, it declined in other Western democracies as well.

Also, the Democrats are not left-wing, just more left-wing than the Republicans. It's confusing because the U.S. has adopted European dichotomies of left/right and liberal/conservative, but use them differently.

It would be helpful too to explain what is meant by saying the Democrats have become more liberal. TFD (talk) 14:29, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The article blames the U.S. status as a flawed democracy on Trump. In fact it became a flawed democracy the year before he assumed office.

WaPo from 2017-02-23: "In January [2017], the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU)’s Democracy Index demoted the United States from 'full democracy' to 'flawed democracy'...Here’s the main reason for the U.S. downgrade to the category of flawed democracy — there was a drop in the levels of trust in political parties, elected representatives and governmental institutions…'Trust in political institutions is an essential component of well-functioning democracies. Yet surveys by Pew, Gallup and other polling agencies have confirmed that public confidence in government has slumped to historic lows in the U.S. This has had a corrosive effect on the quality of democracy in the U.S., as reflected in the decline in the U.S. score in the Democracy Index.'"

While it is certainly true that trust in democratic institutions was sinking before Trump arrived on the scene (and had been measured as sinking since 2014), it’s also true that Trump’s emergence as a formal candidate on June 16, 2015, depended on a platform designed and devoted to reducing trust in American institutions and denigrating those institutions in virtually every public appearance, speech, and interview he ever gave. To deny that Trump contributed greatly to distrust in US institutions cannot be supported by the available evidence. The question is did EIU take this into account in their adjustment to the democracy index, and I believe the answer is yes. Going from memory from the original report, I believe there was a brief mention made in other parts of the report that referred to the rise of Trumpism in 2015.

[Fact checking myself: the EIU report for 2016 was published in January 2017 and titled "Rise of the Deplorables", a direct reference to Trump. Relevant quote from the report: "Trust in political institutions is an essential component of well-functioning democracies. Yet surveys by Pew, Gallup and other polling agencies have confirmed that public confidence in government has slumped to historic lows in the US. This has had a corrosive effect on the quality of democracy in the US, as reflected in the decline in the US score in the Democracy Index. The US president, Donald Trump, is not to blame for this decline in trust, which predated his election, but he was the beneficiary of it. Popular confidence in political institutions and parties continues to decline in many other developed countries, too." [..] "It took a political outsider such as Donald Trump to tap this deep well of distrust and mobilise it to help him win the presidential election. He said that the system was rigged, and people supported him because that is what they believe on the basis of their lived experience. His promise to “make America great again” appealed to those who no longer hold the institutions of power in high esteem. They believe that the system is in need of urgent reform, and they voted for an outsider to shake things up. From the perspective of those who no longer trust government and elected officials to do what is right by them or their country, Hillary Clinton, an establishment insider who has spent three decades in the national political limelight, was the worst candidate the Democratic Party could have chosen."]

Further, this state of mind is also the essence of what Trump and his supporters mean by the term MAGA. The term implies that American institutions are no longer great, we should no longer trust them, and we should embrace rosy retrospection and nostalgia for the past in search of a golden age that never existed. It was and is a form of psychological distraction precisely based on undermining confidence and trust in the present institutions and their potential for future progress. It’s implicit in the very name. Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

So are we basing American politics on the world (in which I agree is farther right) or on America itself? I would put a clarification in the article. Mitch199811 (talk) 22:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

"Are the edits made by Klaycax politically neutral as it makes the democrats look more rational than the republicans?" Yes. Hope this helps! --Golbez (talk) 16:19, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A majority of members within the Republican Party tend to hold right-wing to far-right views while a majority of members of the Democratic Party hold centrist and liberal views. – It seems that this is the perennial attempt to label Republicans as far right, when they are capable of governing without being in a coalition, which is not the situation of an extreme right-wing party.

A liberal democracy, it has undergone significant political instability and democratic erosion since 2016. – Some liberal Democratic thinkers (e.g. Sarah Smarsh) regard Trump's victory, however much they dislike his views, as the sort of grass-roots insurgency that their own party has suppressed, such as those led by senators Sanders and Warren. So, is Trump Adolf Hitler or Andrew Jackson? Dhtwiki (talk) 07:15, 16 November 2022 (UTC) (edited 09:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC))

"when they are capable of governing without being in a coalition, which is not the situation of an extreme right-wing party." I don't understand this; it sounds like you're saying that, if a party has enough popular support, that means it's not extreme right? --Golbez (talk) 15:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

That's right. If a large minority or majority embrace a party's views (and there may be a wide range of those views), then you are not part of an "extremist" party, at least not within the political spectrum of the country that party operates in. Words like "extremist" and "right wing" are just terms of derision in any case. They are not meant to accurately describe the range of such views or the nuance with which they're espoused. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:53, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I suppose the difference is you see "right" only in comparison to others, whereas I see it as more an objective fact, which means someone can indeed be extreme right and still have popular support. "Moderates" are not the default. And I'm fine with deriding the extreme right by calling them such. --Golbez (talk) 05:33, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you for labeling the Republican party in its entirety as such, since that is what the questionable text seems close to doing ("A majority of members within the Republican Party tend to hold right-wing to far-right views...")? That is what is up for discussion. That the Republican party seems to be at war with itself at the moment indicates that there is a variety of viewpoints. Also, compare the situation of the BJP party in India, which, the last time I looked, was actually labeled as a right wing party, but which in recent years has come to dominate Indian politics. I would consider relabeling them for the same reasons. Dhtwiki (talk) 07:20, 17 November 2022 (UTC) (edited 23:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC))

I'm merely discussing the notion that an "extreme" party can't be the primate party. Nothing to do with if Republicans qualify, that's a different discussion. --Golbez (talk) 14:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested edit: Add map of the US with cities

Kxeon (talk) 15:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done – I don't see that this image adds much, and you don't say where it should be placed. It has a limited selection of cities; doesn't have any higher resolution versions; and most of the legends, other than city names, are in German. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:38, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't hate the general idea, but this is for sure not the map to use. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

There's also a debate on what cities to add. For example, even though Columbus (Ohio) is a massive city, the smaller city of Pittsburgh is a big hub for tech on the east coast. Even then, could any fit into the the map (at least the one presented by Kxeon) when Indianapolis, New York, and Philadelphia, depending on where the names of each city are listed?

I would also criticize the proposed map for not including Portland (Oregon) and Minneapolis when room certainly exists, or electing to include Jacksonville over Atlanta or Oklahoma City over Kansas City. Is Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, even a notable American city for its population or economic center like Columbus or Pittsburgh? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

War apologia

"The September 11 attacks in 2001 resulted in the United States launching the war on terror, which included the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and the Iraq War (2003–2011)."

This is just plain war apologia. Two things should be highlighted while maintaining concision: that the US termed this as a "war on terror" and not that this is a WP term; "resulted in" should be replaced by followed by.

I suggest the following:

"Following the September 11 attacks in 2001 in the United States, it launched what it termed the war on terror, which included the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and the Iraq War (2003–2011)." Makeandtoss (talk) 09:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how your version is much different from what is there, how one is less apologia than the other. From the standpoint of pure copy editing, I would write:

In 2001, following the September 11 attacks, the United States launched the "war on terror", which included the War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) and the Iraq War (2003–2011).

For one thing, the US never officially termed it the "war on terror", per the article on the subject; and "what it termed" just seems like unnecessary wordiness. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:49, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

"United American States" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect United American States and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 9 § United American States until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. An anonymous username, not my real name 00:02, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

might we include in this article the expandable/collapsible sortable table of states from over in Citizendium?

Folks, please see United States of America in Citizendium, and see the second section, "States and Territories". It is expandable to a sortable table of states showing useful information that can be sorted. Might we include this table somewhere in this article? It is only required that we give attribution to Citizendium, otherwise it can be included here. Harborsparrow (talk) 19:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it works; it's a lot of extra information that is accessible one click away. This article is already humongous. It's nice for Citizendium's much smaller footprint, but here it's just repeating information that's elsewhere where it actually belongs and has detail and context. (Also, that table has sufficient issues that we'd never copy it straight, if we did anything it would be merely inspired by this request and we wouldn't have to credit Citizendium anyway.) --Golbez (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Colonial America image selection

OuroborosCobra, I think your comment "whitewashing American history" is out of place. Proper historical context is needed, if you were to include an image related to slavery further down in the section like this one [4] it would be more appropriate. In the beginning of the colonies, sharecropping indentured servitude was the main agricultural driving force, however over time by the late 17th century it was overtaken by slavery. So, 1619 might be a powerful symbolic date, it does not show an accurate picture of how America developed. Not even the Brazil article opens up like that, and it's fair to say Brazil was almost exclusively devoted to Slavery from the very start, and nothing else (pls see map here:[5]).

Also, I don't get the nuclear mushroom image, if it was a picture related to the Manhattan Project, I would get it... a major engineering accomplishment, etc. But, I hate to raise this illustration; a mushroom cloud just has this negative connotation attached to it, its not like a nuclear power plant or something. The point I'm trying to make is that we should not use clichés to illustrate this article, but accurate imagery that reflects real history. E-960 (talk) 21:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I've just reverted OuroborosCobra's reversion, which took out the Mayflower image, as well, another version of which had been on the page for some time. Having the 1619 arrival of slaves preceding the Mayflower is appropriate, but without an image of the Jamestown settlement, it seems inappropriate to place it first and for obviously POVish reasons, given the "whitewashing American history" comment in one of OuroborosCobra's edit summaries. There was also text added to make the 1619 image more relevant to the text, whereas before there was little-to-nothing on slavery in that section, which made the slave-arrival image rather irrelevant. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I have restored the image but moved it closer to the paragraphs about Jamestown's founding and slavery replacing indentured servitude as the main source of agricultural labor by the early 1700s. There were no other pictures of slavery in this entry, which seems rather strange given the importance of the subject for the Southern economy, for drafting the Constitution and for the Civil War. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 15:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you SashiRolls. Removing the image gave short shrift to the matter of slavery and failed to give WP:Due weight for its fundamental role in American history. Such a move was out of step with current scholarship. For anyone under the impression that indentured servitude was anything like the forced migration and enslavement of Africans in terms of the scale and scope of its impact on the United States, this article can get you up to speed on the conversation. إيان (talk) 15:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The New York Times article is behind a paywall; so, I can't consult it (unless I possibly gain access through an online library, which would require some logging in and other hoop jumping). The problem still remains of there being so many images in that section that the chart of the colonies is pushed down (but it might be more appropriate to the next section anyway). There's also the possibility that the focus on slavery, a failed system peculiar to one section, being fundamental is a recent and over emphasized phenomenon, even if problematic race relations and wealth inequality, supposedly in consequence, aren't. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:54, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

What you mean by "a failed system peculiar to one section" is unclear, but as for the rest of that sentence, it's absolutely not the case. Per WP:SOURCEACCESS a paywall should not bear on the consideration of a source. There is the Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request, and I'd happy to email you a PDF if it's too much trouble for you to gain access to it otherwise. إيان (talk) 23:06, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I temporary reverted the image to Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima. As that was one of the images used before the recent revisions, per request. @E-960: @Dhtwiki:. KlayCax (talk) 23:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Confusing/redundant sentence clean up

In the Foreign Relation Section. There is a confusing sentence, copied here: Since the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the U.S. has become a key ally of Ukraine since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 and began an invasion of Ukraine in 2022, significantly deteriorating relations with Russia in the process.

I'd propose to change to this: The U.S. has become a key ally of Ukraine since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 and began an invasion of Ukraine in 2022, significantly deteriorating relations with Russia in the process. HOGnBOSS (talk) 21:55, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done small jars tc 23:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

"Universal healthcare" in lead

Does anyone object to "universal healthcare" being removed from the lead? Multiple editors have expressed concerns about the wording and the statement itself has multiple problems.

Firstly, there's a multitude of countries in the world without universal healthcare. That doesn't make it a good thing. But it's the present state of the world. I've seen some editors state it should be mentioned because it's supposedly to only narrowly contrast to wealthy, developed liberal democracies. But it's unclear why that should be the inclusion of criteria instead of, say, "wealthy countries" (many of which that lack universal healthcare) or liberal democracies (many of which that lack universal healthcare). As Wikipedia takes a global perspective: essentially every article on polities compares globally to other countries. Singling it out only makes sense if we're narrowly subdividing the United States and contrasting it specifically with wealthy, developed countries. No similar comparison exists on any other present Wikipedia page. (Per the criteria being inherently subjective and encouraging WP: Undue distortions in the lead. A principle that seems uniquely absent (in contrast to other world polities) on this page.

Secondly, like many other countries articles on here, it confuses de jure claims of (quality) insurance with de facto (quality) health insurance.

In terms of effective coverage, healthcare access, and quality — per a 2018 The Lancet study — the United States ranks similar and/or higher on most metrics of effective coverage than Greenland, Costa Rica, Israel, New Zealand, and Portugal, all of which are wealthy Western liberal democracies. The country also rates "high" on the 2019 Universal Healthcare Index and other metrics measuring egalitarian access to high-quality healthcare services. (And others, that don't account for egalitarian distrbution of healthcare resources, it generally ranks among the highest in the world.) But since we're primary talking about egalitarian healthcare access, I thought it would be fair to include.)

As an advocate of social democracy with a lot of axes to grind against present American healthcare policy: it's shameful and WP: Undue for the present North Korean article to have a more positive portrayal of the country's healthcare system than the United States article presently does. (A previous version of the North Korean article went so far as to state that the citizens of North Korea "enjoy universal healthcare". Then, positively contrasting it with the U.S., which is of course utterly absurd.). This of course doesn't mean that there isn't deep flaws in the way that the United States handles healthcare policy. Yet I can't see how this warrants an American exceptionalist text in the lead. I think it should definitely be mentioned in the body. But the present wording comes across as an advocation of policy rather giving a reader's a fair, NPOV, adequate understanding of the country's healthcare system. It's also unclear why claims of universal healthcare should be given more WP: DUE weight than the actual reality.

There's also other WP: Undue aspects of this page that stuck out — compare the present articles on Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, and, of course, Singapore, et al. with that of the United States, all of which have far more illiberal polities — that editors have mostly cut out negative information about. (Almost completely in their leads.) Yet, similar problems (even of a lesser scale) in the United States are consistently and prominently highlighted on this page. Obviously, I think that the vast majority of editors who are doing this are doing it in good faith. But it's leading to a gradual and growing distortion of the actual reality.

Interested in everyone's thoughts. KlayCax (talk) 02:23, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I object. There has already been an RfC on this.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 02:32, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Universal healthcare was never directly addressed in that RFC. KlayCax (talk) 02:44, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Since I prefer to discuss with other editors rather than going straight to RFC. Why do you disagree? KlayCax (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Look again, it says at the top: "The consensus here is option C + healthcare." I don't feel like reading that wall of text above at the moment, but the lack of universal healthcare is a significant issue, obviously. The US has some of the most expensive healthcare and some of the worst health outcomes, including tens of thousands who die each year for lack of coverage, compared to peer countries that have some form of universal healthcare. Like one editor mentioned in the RfC, another option could be "failure to provide basic needs for millions of its people".--C.J. Griffin (talk) 02:57, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Right after that quote, it directly states that "there is no clear consensus on how to mention healthcare". An agreement on how the article should tackle the country's healthcare policy was not reached. The only thing that was agreed upon was that healthcare policy should be discussed somewhere in the article. I (and likely pretty much anyone here) agrees with that statement.

The question is whether the present wording in the lead is misleading/undue. Since it absurdly takes polity's de jure claims of universal quality healthcare with the de jure reality of having universal quality healthcare. That's one of the reasons that the present wording within the article is problematic. Particularly when it relates to things such as quality of service. (Western liberal democracies such as Greenland, Portugal, Poland, Hungary, Israel, Latvia, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic all rank lower or similar to the U.S. on this metric.)

Additionally, there has also been a strong previous understanding that countries shouldn't be subjectively compared at a subglobal scale in their leads. Since the factors that would be chosen between the two (or more) polities being compared with — whether the country's have a similar culture, politics, wealth/income, et al. — are all highly subjective for each individual editors.

There's tons of ways that we could compare and contrast countries. (Anglosphere? Western World? How is there a NPOV-free to determine?) For instance, the articles on Singapore, Hungary, Israel, or Poland don't mention their relationship to other liberal democracy(s) (or wealthy countries in general) for instance, despite structural problems that could likely be called much more extensive than the U.S. We don't "compare" the strength of their democracies to other "wealthy liberal democracies". In fact, no other polity's lead "compares" it on a subglobal level. The fact that this article is the only one that does this — without telling readers that this is occurring — is utterly unique, misleading, and found nowhere else on any article on Wikipedia.

Unless at least (among other problems) these criteria are met:

• #1.) Why the United States should uniquely be compared with subglobal criteria in its lead. (And without mentioning that this is being done!) Despite a general agreement among editors on other country's talk pages that this should inherently be rejected and essentially never done in any case. (Wikipedia takes a global perspective.)
• #2.) If #1 is affirmed (and we're going to uniquely compare the U.S. with subglobal criteria). Why should the comparison be based upon the fact that it's a "wealthy, liberal Western democracy" and not some other criteria? Such as simply being a "liberal democracy" or "Western" or "wealthy"? (All of which have multiple countries without universal healthcare. The fact that they lack some form of universal healthcare is almost always lacking from their leads.) How do we chose how to base #1 on neutrally?
• #3.) Why, if #1 and #2 are affirmed, should polities de jure claims of universal healthcare should be taken over the de facto reality of the matter.

I can't see the mention being anything else beyond WP: Undue and/or outright misleading to the average viewer. Yes. I agree that it's a shame that the country doesn't provide some form of universal coverage for its citizens. But even good-faith bias is still bias. We're not here to recommend corrections for the country's politics. We're here to describe it in an encyclopedic manner.

None of this was discussed in the original RFC on the subject — which is why I think a discussion on the matter is necessary. KlayCax (talk) 05:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Health care systems by country#Health care systems by country

Health expenditure and financing by country. Total health expenditure per capita in US dollars (PPP).

(ecx4) - Should be there.....Major!!! racial and political issues for many decades. ONLY industrialized country without universal healthcare. Spends more per person on health care then ANY other country. Ranks last on access to care, administrative efficiency, equity, and health care outcomes and mortality rates of most developed countries. Needles to say......oddest healthcare system in the developed world.Moxy- 06:09, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

As stated above: I'm not arguing that the American system of healthcare is the greatest in the world. However, Greenland, Portugal, Poland, Hungary, Israel, Latvia, Lithuania, and the Czech Republic are all wealthy liberal democracies that rank worse/same in de facto universal coverage than the U.S. in terms of % with quality coverage. (Per The Lancet and other major metrics) Beyond that, using subglobal metrics to compare countries is a highly subjective affair and have been essentially universally rejected as the basis of country's leads. I get that people want to critique it. There's undeniably a lot of room for improvement. But Wikipedia isn't a place to right great wrongs. It's covering the country in an encyclopedic context. KlayCax (talk) 06:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

All listed above have universal systems.....not the USA. The costs is the number one political issue in the USA. Health care is a basic human right in developed/developing countries....not in the USA. To the developed world.....its crazy Americans have to pay out of pocket to live. As for ""essentially universally rejected as the basis of country's leads"...any proof of this? Has never come up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. Moxy- 07:34, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Moxy. The US is an outlier on the issue of healthcare, which is why it is worth mentioning in the lead. And the text doesn't compare the US to other countries, it just states that it doesn't have universal healthcare as a matter of fact, just as the article on North Korea (mentioned above) says of its system "Most services – such as healthcare, education, housing, and food production – are subsidized or state-funded." No comparisons or moral judgements in either case. Now, if the US lead said something like "It has high levels of incarceration and inequality and lacks universal health care, which could save 68,000 lives annually" that would be a very different statement.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I somewhat support this, although I think rewording is preferable to removal. Unlike other pieces of information in the lead ("ranks very high in international measures of quality of life, income and wealth, economic competitiveness, human rights, innovation, and education", "highest median income per person of any polity in the world", "high levels of incarceration and inequality") this isn't really a self-explanatory statement in terms of notability. To be clear, there is no question that this is a notable piece of information, but it doesn't explain why this is more noteworthy than Somalia's similar healthcare situation. As a compromise, it could at least be changed to something like "its healthcare system has been criticized for..." An anonymous username, not my real name 22:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I definitely agree that it's notable, but I don't know if it belongs in the lead, necessarily. However, I don't think it's a big deal either way, and not having universal healthcare (something every developed country has) is more notable than the fact that the US retains the death penalty (which several other liberal democracies also retain). --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 04:12, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Good to compare these two items .......as they are the 2 human rights violations the developed world is concerned about and affects the world view of the USA. Moxy- 17:17, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

No doubt that the death penalty as practiced in the US today is a human right's violation, but the US is not the only liberal democracy that retains it. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

they are compared to Iran, North Korea, Somalia ect..... not contemporary Nations. Moxy- 01:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Japan and Taiwan are both liberal democracies that retain the death penalty. They're listed in your source. India is also a liberal democracy that retains it. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 07:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Source is clear...". The U.S. remains an outlier among its close allies and other democracies in its continued application of the death penalty" Along with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore, the United States is one of five advanced democracies and the 'only Western nation that applies the death . That said womens rights have vastly delclined and is now #3 on the list of human rights violations....but health and death still one and 2. Moxy- 15:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Moxy: A lot of countries are shameful outliners on various issues. For example, just take the issue of LGBT rights: We don't mention in Ghana's article that it's the only liberal democracy that penalizes consensual, adult homosexual conduct. Or that Japan is the only member of the G7 to not recognize same-sex marriage.

Compare how the GA/FA's articles for Japan, Canada, Singapore, and India are. That's the model.

While I agree with you, we're not here to critique country's "wrong" policy — however bad it is. KlayCax (talk) 18:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that this logic is also a valid argument to remove mention of universal healthcare from the lead. Regarding both capital punishment and the lack of universal healthcare, they should be present in the article body, as they are important to discuss, but I think they are inappropriate in the lead, just as mentioning that Japan does not recognize same sex marriage would be. Inequality and incarceration should stay (at least for now; the US' incarceration rate continues to decline, so it's possible that in the not too distant future, it will no longer merit inclusion in lead). --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 03:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Second paragraph

Re new edit: "Colonisation by Europeans began in the 16th century. Great Britain's Thirteen Colonies, in what is now the eastern U.S." Could some nice person Americanize this to "colonization" (per the U.S.-related link anyway) and change the very vague and overstated "eastern U.S." to "East Coast of the United States"? There's even a WP link for it. Thank you. 173.77.71.234 (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done – I've changed the spelling to "colonization" as you suggested, but I'm not sure that "East Coast" is preferable, as British claims led up to the Mississippi River in colonial times, I believe. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

The Thirteen Colonies were coastal settlements. Their interior land claims, highly disputed, were unexplored territories occupied by Natives. "Along the eastern seaboard of the U.S." is much better than "now the eastern U.S.," which is simply inaccurate. 173.77.71.234 (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Raising the American flag during the Battle of Iwo Jima vs. nuclear mushroom cloud (Trinity nuclear test)

I would argue for the inclusion of the American flag photo instead of the nuclear mushroom cloud in The rise to world power, the New Deal, and World War II section. As I noted before, the previous image has too many connotations that are difficult to frame. It's one of those images that has a lot of different meanings and without further context within the text itself it might just conjure up images of nuclear armageddon and America (though this would also apply to other nuclear powers as well). Thus, I think the American flag image is a more neutral choice which clearly relates to the idea of America's rise following the end of WWII. E-960 (talk) 21:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not clear why you seem to think using Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima to represent the US in World War II doesn't have its own connotations and is somehow neutral. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unprecedented in human history, had a massive human impact, bore heavily on the outcome of the war, and ushered in the Nuclear arms race aspect of the Cold War. Between the battle of Iwo Jima and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the latter is objectively the more consequential of the two and the NPOV choice. إيان (talk) 18:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, especially given that § 21st century has a picture of the September 11 attacks. Every country raises flags, but the United states is unique in its use of nuclear weapons for state terrorism.      — Freoh 19:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Unit 731 took more lives than the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We don't have that on the FA-featured Japan page, either. Whatever one's opinions on that decision was: Unit 731 was far less morally ambiguous. Heck, the Bombing of Tokyo took more lives than the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. KlayCax (talk) 11:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Stara Marusya (talk) 19:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The Bombing of Tokyo took more lives than the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. KlayCax (talk) 11:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Shoreranger (talk) 21:37, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The aerial bombings of Tokyo likely had more casualities. KlayCax (talk) 11:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

This almost certainly needs to go to a RFC - I agree. @E-960:. Editors are letting their personal opinions get in the way.

We don't have an Unit 731 or Rape of Nanjing picture on the Japan page. KlayCax (talk) 11:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Other possible options

• 
  Yalta Conference picture
• 
  Cairo Conference picture
• 
  Potsdam Conference picture
• 
  Tehran Conference picture

These would also be good, potential options to work with if a consensus can't be reached. KlayCax (talk) 11:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

The use of nuclear weapons against civilian populations is unique to the United States and was extremely consequential for world politics ever since. KlayCax, why do you oppose this picture?      — Freoh 14:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

@KlayCax, can you please clean up your comments and put them in sequential order? The way you inserted your comment makes it seem like the previous comments agree with what you said. إيان (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not sure these other images are better. They are even more loaded with various connotations than the original picture. --E-960 (talk) 11:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions? @E-960:. KlayCax (talk) 02:35, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@KlayCax, still waiting for you to reorganize your comments so that they don't distort the conversation and mislead readers from seeing the clear consensus that had formed. إيان (talk) 02:45, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

It's also unnecessary to label the pictures you like with a sub-heading. إيان (talk) 02:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a RFC. I just made a subheading to showcase other possible alternatives. Does using both (Iwo Jima and that) pictures work?

Usually it's considered rude to delete comments. That's why I didn't want to remove what I already posted.KlayCax (talk) 20:53, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

No, I think that it is better to include the Great Depression picture so that we get some pre-WWII coverage. I feel like it is more illustrative than the Iwo Jima picture.      — Freoh 02:08, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@KlayCax, I didn’t say anything about deleting. Just move them so they are chronological and aren’t disrupting the conversation, interjecting to make it look like the consensus that had formed was in agreement with you. And for future reference please don’t use headings or sub-headings in your talk page comments because it’s disruptive. Now, for example, we aren’t replying to E-960’s original topic /* Raising the American flag during the Battle of Iwo Jima vs. nuclear mushroom cloud (Trinity nuclear test) /* but rather to your /* Other possible options /*.

And I share E-960’s skepticism with regard to the conference images and agree with Freoh that Iwo Jima image doesn’t contribute anything to the article at this point. إيان (talk) 02:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 March 2023

biden is making a new state so there are 51 stars on the flag Evan1328 (talk) 20:00, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

NOT DONE - Please provide a reliable source for your proposed edit. Additionally, that's not something Biden is doing, nor is it something he can do. The president cannot unilaterally admit a state into the Union. The power to admit new states is explicitly held by Congress, and not the president, and this congress has not taken action towards the admission of a new state. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 20:05, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

The US Gini coefficient uses pre-tax income, whereas other country's use post-tax income

The US's Gini coefficient of 46.9 accurately reflects the 2020 census data, but is not comparable to that listed on any other country's page, which all adjust for taxes and transfers. The US Census Bureau released adjusted figures along with their pre-tax estimates, so there's no reason to be comparing apples and oranges.

"Comparing inequality measures using pretax and post-tax income in 2021 illustrates how the tax system can reduce inequality. Inequality, as measured by the Gini index, was 12.9% lower when calculated using post-tax income compared to pretax income." https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/09/income-inequality-increased.html

The table on page 48 shows that after adjusting for taxes and transfers, the US Gini coefficient drops to .394. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.pdf Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Wow. Good catch, @Dylancatlow1:. I corrected it. KlayCax (talk) 01:36, 19 March 2023 (UTC)