Talk:Urdu/Archive 9
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Urdu in South Asia in Third-party Sources
- Please comment only in the comments subsection below the references, not here.
Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Introduction
The various political and religious nationalisms in South Asia during the latter half of the 19th-century and most of the 20th have created wildly varying perspectives on the status of Urdu there. In my view, authors from South Asia, even those in the west with recent a recent history of immigration ( i.e. First generation immigrants in the west in both meanings of the expression, (given in Webster's, for example, for the US as: 1. "born in the U.S. -used of an American of immigrant parentage" or 2. "foreign-born -used of a naturalized citizen,") are not entirely immune from biases of perspective, even among those most scholarly.
I am advocating an approach that has borne results in other controversial pages in which Hindu-Muslim or India-Pakistan disputes have a bearing in evaluating a Wikipedia source for reliability. On pages such as 2020 Delhi riots (Hindu-Muslim) or 2019 India-Pakistan border skirmishes (India-Pakistan) or Subhas Chandra Bose (with wildly varying perspectives in India about the characterization of his notability), we have written the leads using only "Third-party sources," i.e. sources whose authors or organizations are not predisposed by the previous history of their milieu to advocating a particular viewpoint in the dispute.
For the 2020 Delhi riots, the sources being employed in the lead are subject to the conditions: they be newspaper articles: (a) which have correspondents based in India. (b) whose articles (which are of interest to us) have bylines (i.e. the name of the correspondents shows up below the title of their story) and (c) which are published in liberal democracies where there is no significant POV around this issue. (i.e. South Asian newspapers are ruled out for sourcing the lead.) Thus (a) and (b) ensure that the source is not written as an opinion piece or by a web manager and (c) uses only third-party newspapers in the creation of a reliable and neutral summary, which can then be used as a template to add nuances in the main body of the article to describe the significant disputes and so forth.
For Urdu, I propose the following conditions for sourcing the lead (and the lead only): (a) the source should be a published scholarly one with an unambiguous author (web pages, popular newspaper articles even when written by scholars, are to be avoided for sourcing the lead), (b) the source should be primarily about an Urdu-related topic, not about another (say in linguistics or politics in which Urdu is mentioned as a brief example (i.e. to be cherry-picked out of context) and (c) the author is not of South Asian descent as broadly interpreted above. In my view, there is no other way of writing a broad and neutral summary in the lead; the intercultural toxicity is too deep-rooted. The lead in this way of thinking is not (at least initially) a summary style precis of the main body, but an independent neutral summary to be employed as a template of neutrality for the expansion of the main body (in, for example, the discussion of significant disputes, nuances, etc.).
- PS (Added 23:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)) We have followed the same broad principles in lead of Indus Valley Civilisation. In some ways, the issues there are similar to Urdu. In Urdu, many speakers migrated to Pakistan (in which Urdu became a hallmark of the new nation's identity). In IVC, the partition of India resulted in the major sites including the UNESCO World Heritage site of Mohenjo daro awarded to Pakistan.
- PS2 Upon rethinking, I have broadened my compass of "third-party" to include articles with bearing on Urdu in Enclopaedia Britannica
but only those with bylines
. These are articles written by recognized scholars in the field whose names appears below the article title, in contrast, for example, to the articles in Britannica on "Urdu language," "Hindi language," "Hindustani language," which have been edited by general-purpose editors who do this sort of editing across a wider range of articles. For example, the Britannica article on Urdu is written by an editor who generally works on North African and Middle-East topics. As Britannica has sufficient oversight, what emerges in its scholarly articles is effectively third-party, and I am willing to make an exception in the description of "third-party" above. I will be adding a special Britannica section below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- PS2 Upon rethinking, I have broadened my compass of "third-party" to include articles with bearing on Urdu in Enclopaedia Britannica
Britannica 's articles with bylines
George Cardona, University of Pennsylvania
- George Cardona is Professor Emeritus of Linguistics, University of Pennsylvania.
Edward Dimock Jr, University of Chicago
- Edward Dimock Jr. was Professor, Department of South Asian Languages, University of Chicago, and a scholar of Bengali.
J. T. P. de Bruijn, University of Leiden
- J. T. P. de Bruijn is Professor Emeritus of New Persian, University of Leiden
- Islamic literatures
- Persian literature
C. M. Naim, University of Chicago
- C. M. Naim is Professor Emeritus of Urdu, University of Chicago.
Christopher Shackle, University of London
- Christopher Shackle is Emeritus Professor of Modern Languages of South Asia, SOAS, University of London.
Motilal Jadhumal Jotwani
Ronald Eric Emmerick, University of Hamburg
- Professor and Director, Department of Iranian Studies, University of Hamburg
Historians on Urdu
Judith M. Brown, Modern India
- Judith M. Brown was the Beit Professor of Commonwealth History, University of Oxford.
- Brown, Judith Margaret (1994). Modern India: The Origins of an Asian Democracy. Oxford University Press. p. 180. ISBN 978-0-19-873113-9.
- This book has been cited 548 times on Google Scholar.
Excerpt from Judith Brown's Modern India
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Peter Robb, History of India
- Peter Robb is Research Professor at History of India, and former Chair, South Asian Studies, SOAS, University of London.
- Robb, P. (2001), A History of India, London: Palgrave, ISBN 978-0-333-69129-8
- This book has been cited 147 times on Google Scholar.
Excerpts from Peter Robb, History of India
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Copeland, India 1885–1947
- Ian Copeland is Professor of History at the School of Historical Studies and Director of the Centre of South Asian Studies, Monash University
- Copland, Ian (2014). India 1885-1947: The Unmaking of an Empire. London: Longman. pp. 10, 57–58. ISBN 978-1-317-87784-4.
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- This book has been cited 34 times on Google Scholar.
- Copland, Ian (2014). India 1885-1947: The Unmaking of an Empire. London: Longman. pp. 10, 57–58. ISBN 978-1-317-87784-4.
Excerpts from Ian Copeland, India 1885–1947
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Metcalf and Metcalf, A Concise History of Modern India
- Barbara D. Metcalf was Alice Freeman Professor of History, University of Michigan, and President American Historical Association. Thomas R. Metcalf is the Sara and Thomas Kailath Professor of South Asian history, University of California, Berkeley.
- Metcalf, B.; Metcalf, T. R. (2006), A Concise History of Modern India (2nd ed.), Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0-521-68225-1
- This book has been cited 719 times on Google Scholar
Excerpts from Metcalf and Metcalf's A Concise History of Modern India
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Asher and Talbot, India Before Europe
- Catherine Asher is Professor of History, University of Minnesota; Cynthia Talbot is Professor of History University of Texas-Austin
- Asher, Catherine B.; Talbot, Cynthia (2006). India Before Europe. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-80904-7.
- This book has been cited 234 times on Google Scholar.
Excerpts from Asher and Talbot's India before Europe
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Burton Stein, History of India
- Burton Stein was Professor of History at the University of Hawaii, and Professorial Fellow, SOAS, University of London
- Stein, B. (2010), Arnold, D. (ed.), A History of India (2nd ed.), Oxford: Wiley-Blackwell, ISBN 978-1-4051-9509-6
- This book has been cited 399 times on Google Scholar.
Excerpt from Burton Stein's History of India
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Kulke and Rothermund, History of India
- Hermann Kulke is Professor of South Asian history at University of Kiel; Dietmar Rothermund was Professor of Economic History, University of Heidelberg
- Kulke, Hermann; Rothermund, Dietmar (2004). A History of India. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-32919-4.
- This book has been cited 724 times on Google Scholar
Christopher Bayly, University of Cambridge
- Christopher Bayly was the Vere Harmsworth Professor of Imperial and Naval History, University of Cambridge.
- Bayly, C. A. (1988) [1983]. Rulers, Townsmen and Bazaars: North Indian Society in the Age of British Expansion, 1770-1870. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-31054-3.
- This book has been cited 1104 times on Google Scholar
Excerpts from C. A. Bayly's Rulers, Townsmen, and Bazaars
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- Bayly, C. A. (1987). Indian Society and the Making of the British Empire. Cambridge University Press. pp. 122–23. ISBN 978-0-521-38650-0.
- This book has been cited 837 times on Google Scholar.
Excerpts from C. A. Bayly's Indian Society and the Making of the British Empire
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- Bayly, Christopher Alan (1999). Empire and Information: Intelligence Gathering and Social Communication in India, 1780-1870. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-66360-1.
- This book has been cited 1,541 times on Google Scholar.
Fowler&fowler's third-party sources
Christopher Shackle, University of London
- Christopher Shackle is the Emeritus Professor of Modern Languages of South Asia, University of London.
- Shackle, Christopher; Snell, Rupert (1990). Hindi and Urdu Since 1800: A Common Reader. Heritage Publishers. ISBN 978-81-7026-162-9. Retrieved 24 September 2020.
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- Shackle, Christopher; Snell, Rupert (1990). Hindi and Urdu Since 1800: A Common Reader. Heritage Publishers. ISBN 978-81-7026-162-9. Retrieved 24 September 2020.
Shackle and Snell on Gandhi and Hindustani
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Allison Busch, Columbia University
- Allison Busch (1969–2019) was Associate Professor of Hindi Literature in the Department of Middle Eastern South Asian, and African Studies at Columbia University
- Busch, Allison (2011). Poetry of Kings: The Classical Hindi Literature of Mughal India. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-987743-0.
- This work has been cited 150 times on Google scholar.
Allison Busch on the late development of Khari boli Hindi as a literary dialect
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Susan Bayly, University of Cambridge
- Susan Bayly is Professor of Historical Anthropology, University of Cambridge.
- Bayly, Susan (2004). "Conceptualizing from Within: Divergent Religious Modes from Asian Modernist Perspectives". In Harvey Whitehouse, James Laidlaw (ed.). Ritual and Memory: Toward a Comparative Anthropology of Religion. Rowman Altamira. pp. 111–134, 123–. ISBN 978-0-7591-0617-8.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help)
- Bayly, Susan (2004). "Conceptualizing from Within: Divergent Religious Modes from Asian Modernist Perspectives". In Harvey Whitehouse, James Laidlaw (ed.). Ritual and Memory: Toward a Comparative Anthropology of Religion. Rowman Altamira. pp. 111–134, 123–. ISBN 978-0-7591-0617-8.
Susan Bayly on anti-Urdu polemic by 19th-century Hindi campaigners
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David Page, University of Sussex/British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)
- David Page is Senior Fellow at the Institute of Commonwealth Studies, University of London and Co-director (with William Crawley) of the Media South Asia Project. After taking his doctorate in South Asian History at Oxford University, he joined the BBC in 1972 and worked for more than 20 years as a journalist, editor and manager in the BBC Eastern Service.
- Page, David (2013). "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 157–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
Excerpts from "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service"
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Alisdair Pinkerton, Royal Holloway College, London
- Pinkerton, Alisdair (2013). "The BBC in South Asia: From the end of Empire to the Cold War". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 141–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
Excerpts from "The BBC in South Asia: From the end of Empire to the Cold War"
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Ayet Harel-Shalev, Ben Gurion University
- Ayet Harel-Shalev is Associate Professor of Politics and Government, Ben Gurion University of the Negev
- Harel-Shalev, Ayelet (2006), "The Status of Minority Languages in Deeply Divided Societies: Urdu in India and Arabic in Israel—a Comparative Perspective", Israel Studies Forum, 21 (2 (Winter 2006)), Berghahn Books: 28-57 (30 pages)
Excerpts: The Status of Minority Languages in Deeply Divided Societies: Urdu in India and Arabic in Israel
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Victor Kiernan, University of Edinburgh
- Victor Kiernan was Professor of Modern History, University of Edinburgh
- Kiernan, V.G. (2013). "Preface". Poems from Iqbal: Renderings in English Verse with Comparative Urdu Text. Oxford University Press and Iqbal Academy Pakistan. pp. xi–xiii. ISBN 978-0-19-906616-2.
Excerpts from V. G. Kiernan's "Introduction" in Poems from Iqbal
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- Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
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- Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
Excerpts from V. G. Kiernan's "Introduction" in Poems by Faiz
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Ralph Russell (see subsection below) states the following on Kiernan's translation of Poems by Faiz:[15]
From Kiernan's Introduction to Poems by Faiz:
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Ralph Russell, SOAS
- Ralph Russell was Professor of Urdu at the University of London.
- Russell, Ralph (1999), "Urdu in India since independence", Economic and Political Weekly, 34 (1/2): 44-48 (5 pages)
- Russell, Ralph (1992). "Faiz Ahmed Faiz: Poetry, Politics, and Pakistan". The Pursuit of Urdu Literature: A Select History. Zed Books. pp. 229–247. ISBN 978-1-85649-029-0.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help); External link in|chapterurl=|chapterurl=ignored (|chapter-url=suggested) (help) - Russell, Ralph (1999). How Not to Write the History of Urdu Literature: And Other Essays on Urdu and Islam. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-564749-5.
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David Matthews, SOAS
- David Matthews was Senior Lecturer in Urdu, University of London
- "Urdu in India, Annual of Urdu Studies
- "Urdu Language and Education in India," Social Scientist Vol. 31, No. 5/6 (May - Jun., 2003), pp. 57-72 (16 pages)
Barbara D. Metcalf, University of Michigan
- Barbara Daly Metcalf is a Professor Emerita of History, University of California, Davis, and served as the Alice Freeman Palmer Professor of History, University of Michigan. She was the president of the Association for Asian Studies in 1994 and the president of the American Historical Association in 2010–11.
Barbara Metcalf on the Urdu Hindi divergence of the 19th century
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- From: Metcalf, Barbara D. (2014). Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband, 1860-1900. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-5610-7.
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- This book has been cited 1,264 times on Google scholar.
- From: Metcalf, Barbara D. (2014). Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband, 1860-1900. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-5610-7.
Barbara Metcalf: Urdu in India: Three stages of the modern history
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(p. 30–31) Speaking from a historical and not a literary or linguistic point of view, three key points stand out in the modern history of the Urdu language. First, in the eighteenth century, Urdu emerged as a highly developed language of poetry, above all in the cities of Delhi and Lucknow. ... Even as central authority dissipated, regional powers arose that were vital, well administered, and gave rise to new cultural and institutional forms. Part of the stimulus to the cultural vitality of the era in such realms as poetry and art came from the dispersal of those who knew cosmopolitan art and literature. Although not only a product of the north - it had flourished far earlier in the Deccan - Urdu essentially underwent the same process as other regional languages like Sindhi, Marathi, and Punjabi because Persian forms and conventions were used in such languages. Far from being “foreign”, Urdu represented the enrichment of a local language with the vocabulary and literary forms of Persian. It gradually displaced a language based outside the sub-continent (even though after half a millennium of use Persian was thoroughly part of the governing and intellectual life of the cosmopolitan classes). A second major stage came in the nineteenth century with the decision of the British government to supersede Persian as the official governing language with English at the highest levels and the vernaculars at the provincial and lower levels. Government patronage, moreover, would be primarily directed at these languages and not at classical languages, among them Persian as well as Sanskrit and Arabic. This ushered in a long period in which for a broad swathe across Bihar, the North-Western Provinces, Oudh, and Punjab, educated elite males typically learned Urdu. In this period Urdu became a modern prose language, undergoing a transition common to regional languages across the country. Urdu was used for new genres of the new intelligentsia, like journalism and the novel, which typically communicated new values and images of the person and society, and in old genres associated with traditional learning, everything from Quranic translations to medicine. It was the language of elite, “scribal castes” of all religions. Thus the early tracts of Hindu revival movements like the Arya Samaj at the end of the nineteenth century were written in Urdu. Finally, a third critical stage came in the movement to replace Urdu as an official language, above all in the United Provinces, with Hindi. The 1900 decision of Lt. Governor Macdonnell to give Hindi equal status with Urdu was a major landmark. ... A major stream in Hindu nationalist thought pictured Urdu as a strumpet, the handmaid of the old decadent Nawwabi culture, in contrast to the language of respectable people, Hindi. It was, in short a convenient symbol that Hindu reformers used as a foil for the values of a portion of the new, modern bourgeois. Ironically, of course, Muslim reformers had exactly the same goal. Hindi, on the other side, was dismissed as a language of country bumpkins. In any case, the fact that Urdu then became the national language of Pakistan, a country established on the grounds of the religion of the population, made the position of Urdu in its own homeland even more difficult. ... |
- From: Metcalf, Barbara D. (2003), "Urdu in India in the 21st Century: A Historian's Perspective", Social Scientist, 31 (5/6): 29–37, 30, 31
- Metcalf, Barbara Daly (1992). Perfecting Women: Maulana Ashraf 'Ali Thanawi's Bihishti Zewar: A Partial Translation with Commentary (in English and Urdu). Berkeley, Los Angeles, Oxford: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-08093-5.
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- Metcalf, Barbara Daly (1992). Perfecting Women: Maulana Ashraf 'Ali Thanawi's Bihishti Zewar: A Partial Translation with Commentary (in English and Urdu). Berkeley, Los Angeles, Oxford: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-08093-5.
R. D. King, University of Texas-Austin
- "The poisonous potency of script: Hindi and Urdu," International Journal of Sociology of Language, 150 (2001), pp. 43–59
Theodore P. Wright, Jr
William Gould, University of Leeds
Annemarie Schimmel, Harvard University
- Annemarie Schimmel was Professor of Indo-Muslim Studies at Harvard University.
- Schimmel, Annemarie (1975). Classical Urdu Literature from the Beginning to Iqbāl. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 978-3-447-01671-1.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schimmel (2018) [1976]. Pain and Grace: A Study of Two Mystical Writers of Eighteenth-Century Muslim India. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-37854-4.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schimmel, Annemarie (1963). Gabriel's Wing: A Study Into the Religious Ideas of Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Brill Archive.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schimmel, Annemarie (1973). Islamic Literatures of India. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 978-3-447-01509-7.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schimmel, Annemarie (1982). Islam in India and Pakistan. BRILL. ISBN 90-04-06479-6.
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- Schimmel, Annemarie (1975). Classical Urdu Literature from the Beginning to Iqbāl. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 978-3-447-01671-1.
Colin P. Masica, University of Chicago
- Colin P. Masica is Professor Emeritus of Linguistics and South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago.
- Masica, Colin P. (2005) [1976]. Defining a Linguistic Area: South Asia. Orient Blackswan/Originally: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-81-8028-022-1.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Masica, Colin P. (1993). The Indo-Aryan Languages. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-29944-2.
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- Masica, Colin P. (2005) [1976]. Defining a Linguistic Area: South Asia. Orient Blackswan/Originally: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-81-8028-022-1.
R. S. McGregor, University of Cambridge
- R. S. McGregor was Reader in Hindi, University of Cambridge, and compiler of the Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary
- McGregor, Ronald Stuart (1981). A New Voice for New Times: The Development of Modern Hindi Literature. Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University. ISBN 978-0-909879-13-6.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - McGregor, Ronald Stuart (1999) [1977]. Outline of Hindi grammar: with exercises. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-564911-6.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - McGregor, Ronald Stuart (1992). Urdu Study Materials for Use with Outline of Hindi Grammar. Oxford University Press.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - McGregor, Ronald Stuart (1993). "Introduction". The Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-563846-2.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - McGregor, Ronald Stuart (2001). The Formation of Modern Hindi as Demonstrated in Early 'Hindi' Dictionaries. Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences. ISBN 978-90-6984-321-6.
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- McGregor, Ronald Stuart (1981). A New Voice for New Times: The Development of Modern Hindi Literature. Faculty of Asian Studies, Australian National University. ISBN 978-0-909879-13-6.
Francesca Orsini, SOAS
- Francesca Orsini is Professor of Hindi and South Asian Literature at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London.
- Orsini, Francesca (ed) (2010). Before the Divide: Hindi and Urdu Literary Culture. Orient BlackSwan. ISBN 978-81-250-3829-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help) - Orsini, Francesca (2009). The Hindi Public Sphere 1920–1940: Language and Literature in the Age of Nationalism. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-908880-5.
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- Orsini, Francesca (ed) (2010). Before the Divide: Hindi and Urdu Literary Culture. Orient BlackSwan. ISBN 978-81-250-3829-0.
Frances Pritchett, Columbia University
- Frances Pritchett is Professor Emerita of Urdu, Columbia University
- Pritchett, Frances W. (1994). Nets of Awareness: Urdu Poetry and Its Critics. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-91427-8.
Imgre Bangha, University of Oxford
- Imre Bangha is an Associate Professor of Hindi, Department of Oriental Studies, University of Oxford (Teaching and Research Interests: I teach the both the core and optional language courses in Hindi, Urdu, Old Hindi and Bengali. My research interests lie primarily in Old Hindi Poetry, including the emergence of Hindi (including Khari Boli) as a literary dialect in various scripts; textual transmission and Hindi manuscript culture;)
- Bangha, Imre (2010). "Rekhta: Poetry in mixed language: The emergence of Khari boli literature in North India". In Francesca Orsini (ed.). Before the Divide: Hindi and Urdu Literary Culture. Orient BlackSwan. pp. 19–83. ISBN 978-81-250-3829-0.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help); External link in|chapterurl=|chapterurl=ignored (|chapter-url=suggested) (help) - Bangha, Imre (2011), "Śumālī hindūstān mẽ khaṛī bolī kā ibtidāī kalām aur devnāgrī rasm ul-ḵhat͍ mẽ adab-i reḵẖta (Early Khari Boli poetry in North India and Rekhta Literature in the Devanagari Script [in Urdu])", Bāzyāft (in Urdu), 19: 49–61
- Bangha, Imre (2010). "Rekhta: Poetry in mixed language: The emergence of Khari boli literature in North India". In Francesca Orsini (ed.). Before the Divide: Hindi and Urdu Literary Culture. Orient BlackSwan. pp. 19–83. ISBN 978-81-250-3829-0.
Ruth Laila Schmidt, University of Oslo
- Ruth Laila Schmidt is Professor Emerita of Urdu, University of Oslo
- Schmidt, Ruth Laila (1981). Dakhini Urdu: History and Structure. Bahri.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schmidt, Ruth Laila (2005). Urdu: An Essential Grammar. Routledge. ISBN 1-134-71319-3.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schmidt, Ruth Laila (2007). "Urdu". In George Cardona, Dhanesh Jain (ed.). The Indo-Aryan Languages. Routledge. pp. 286–. ISBN 978-1-135-79711-9.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Schmidt, Ruth Laila; Kohistānī, Razval; Zarin, Mohammad Manzar (2008). A Grammar of the Shina Language of Indus Kohistan. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 978-3-447-05676-2.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help)
- Schmidt, Ruth Laila (1981). Dakhini Urdu: History and Structure. Bahri.
David Lelyveld, William Patterson University
- David Lelyveld is Emeritus Professor of History at William Patterson University
- Lelyveld, David (1993), "Zuban-e Urdu-e Mu'alla and the Idol of Linguistic Origins" (PDF), Annual of Urdu Studies, 9, University of Wisconsin
- Lelyveld, David (1993). "Colonial Knowledge and the Fate of Hindustani". Comparative Studies in Society and History. 35 (4). Cambridge University Press: 665-682 (18 pages).
Jennifer Dubrow, University of Washington, Seattle
Jennifer Dubrow is an Associate Professor of Urdu at the University of Washington:
- Dubrow, Jennifer (2018). Cosmopolitan Dreams: The Making of Modern Urdu Literary Culture in Colonial South Asia. University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 978-0-8248-7669-2.
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Elena Bashir, University of Chicago
- Elena Bashir is Senior Lecturer in Urdu and South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago
- Bashir, Elena (2016). "Recent convergence and divergence in Pakistan". In Hans Henrich Hock, Elena Bashir (ed.). The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide. De Gruyter. pp. 284–292. ISBN 978-3-11-042330-3.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Hans Henrich Hock, Elena Bashir, ed. (2016). The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide. De Gruyter. ISBN 978-3-11-042338-9.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Bashir, Elena (2012). "Review: Speaking Like a State: Language and Nationalism in Pakistan by Alyssa Ayres". Journal of Sociolinguistics. 16 (1): 110–113. doi:10.1111/j.1467-9841.2011.00529_2.x. ISSN 1360-6441.
- Bashir, Elena (2011), "Urdu and Linguistics: A Fraught But Evolving Relationship" (PDF), Annual of Urdu Studies, University of Wisconsin
- Bashir, Elena (1999). "The Urdu and Hindi Ergative Postposition ne: Its Changing Role in the Grammar*". In Rajendra Singh (ed.). The Yearbook of South Asian Languages and Linguistics, 1999. New Delhi, Thousand Oaks, London: Sage Publications. ISBN 9780761993391. OCLC 1075307717.
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- Bashir, Elena (2016). "Recent convergence and divergence in Pakistan". In Hans Henrich Hock, Elena Bashir (ed.). The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide. De Gruyter. pp. 284–292. ISBN 978-3-11-042330-3.
Christina Oesterheld, University of Heidelberg
- Oesterheld, Christina (2004). "Islam in Contemporary South Asia: Urdu and Muslim Women". Oriente Moderno. 84 (1): 217–243. doi:10.1163/22138617-08401014. ISSN 0030-5472.
- Oesterheld, Christina (2005), "Urdu Literature in Pakistan: A Site for Alternative Visions and Dissent" (PDF), Annual of Urdu Studies, Department of Languages and Cultures of Asia, University of Wisconsin–Madison
Christine Everaert, University of Utah
- Christine Everaert is Associate Professor of Hindi-Urdu, and Coordinator of South Asian Studies Program, University of Utah.
- Everaert, Christine (2010). Tracing the Boundaries Between Hindi and Urdu: Lost and Added in Translation Between 20th Century Short Stories. BRILL. ISBN 90-04-17731-0.
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- Everaert, Christine (2010). Tracing the Boundaries Between Hindi and Urdu: Lost and Added in Translation Between 20th Century Short Stories. BRILL. ISBN 90-04-17731-0.
Walter N. Hakala, University of Buffalo
- Hakala, Walter N. (2016). Negotiating Languages: Urdu, Hindi, and the Definition of Modern South Asia. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-54212-8.
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Otto Zwartjes, Paris Diderot University
- Zwartjes, Otto (2011). Portuguese Missionary Grammars in Asia, Africa and Brazil, 1550-1800. John Benjamins Publishing Company. pp. 76–. ISBN 978-90-272-8325-2.
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Ulrike Stark, University of Chicago
- Ulrike Stark is Professor of South Asian Languages and Civilizations, University of Chicago
- Stark, Ulrike (2019). "Letters beautiful and harmful: print, education, and the issue of script in colonial North India". Paedagogica Historica. 55 (6): 829–853. doi:10.1080/00309230.2019.1631860. ISSN 0030-9230.
- Stark, Ulrike (2016). "The coming of the book in Hindi and Urdu". In Francesca Orsini (ed.). The History of the Book in South Asia. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-351-88831-8.
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Arthur D. Dudney, University of Cambridge
- Dudney, Arthur D. (2018). "Urdu as Persianate: Some Eighteenth-Century Evidence on Vernacular Poetry as Language Planning". In Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, John S. Hawley (ed.). Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India. Oxford University Press India. pp. 40–57. doi:10.1093/oso/9780199478866.003.0002. ISBN 978-0-19-909167-6.
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- Abstract: Focusing on the writings of Siraj al-Din ʿAli Khan ‘Arzu’ (d. 1756), a critic of Persian literature and early theorist of what would come to be known as Urdu, Arthur Dudney shows how the sociolinguistic concept of ‘language planning’ can be used to understand the historical process through which a literary language is delineated and defined as such. Defining a new literary idiom involves identifying what that idiom is but also specifying what it is not. In the writings of Arzu and others, Dudney finds that the concept of rozmarrah (colloquial or ‘everyday’ language) was essential to defining what Urdu was, just as the exclusion of lexical items and forms of speech from Persian and Brajbhasha established what Urdu was not.[22]
Jeffrey M. Diamond, College of Saint Benedict/Saint John's University
- Diamond, Jeffrey M. (2011). "A 'Vernacular' for a 'New Generation'? Historical Perspectives about Urdu and Punjabi, and the Formation of Language Policy in Colonial Northwest India.". In Harold Schiffman (ed.). Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its Neighbors: The Changing Politics of Language Choice. BRILL. pp. 282–318. ISBN 90-04-20145-9.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - Diamond, Jeffrey M (2014), "Calculated to be Offensive to Hindoos"? Vernacular Education, History Textbooks and the Waqi'at Controversy of the 1860s in Colonial North India", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 24 (1), Cambridge University Press: 75-95 (21 pages)
- Diamond, Jeffrey M. (2011). "The Orientalist-Literati Relationship in the Northwest: G.W. Leitner, Muhammad Hussain Azad and the Rhetoric of Neo-orientalism in Colonial Lahore". South Asia Research. 31 (1): 25–43. doi:10.1177/026272801003100103. ISSN 0262-7280.
Eve Tignol, University of Ghent
- Eve Tignol is Junior Postdoctoral Fellow in the Department of Languages and Cultures, University of Ghent
- Tignol, Eve (2020). Margit Pernau (ed.). "The language of shame : a study of emotion in an early-twentieth century Urdu children's periodical (Phūl, 1910)". South Asian History and Culture. ISSN 1947-2498.
- Tignol, Eve (2017). "Nostalgia and the City: Urdu shahr āshob poetry in the aftermath of 1857". Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. 27 (4): 559–573. doi:10.1017/S135618631700013X. ISSN 1356-1863.
Alessandro Bausani, University of Naples "L'Orientale"
- Bausani, Alessandro (1958), "The Position of Gälib (1796-1869) in the History of Urdu and Indo-Persian Poetry" (PDF), Islam, 31: 99–131
Alyssa Ayres, Council Foreign Relations
- Alyssa Ayres is Senior Fellow for India, Pakistan, and South Asia at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)
- Ayres, Alyssa (2009). Speaking Like a State: Language and Nationalism in Pakistan. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-51931-1.
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- Ayres, Alyssa (2009). Speaking Like a State: Language and Nationalism in Pakistan. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-51931-1.
Margrit Pernau, Freie Universität Berlin/Max Planck Institute for Human Development
- Margit Pernau is Extraordinary Professor, Freie Universität Berlin, and Senior Researcher at Max Planck Institute for Human Development
- Pernau, Margrit (2019). Emotions and Modernity in Colonial India: From Balance to Fervor (in English and Urdu). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-099082-4.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help)CS1 maint: unrecognized language (link) - Pernau, Margrit (2015). "The Virtuous Individual and Social Reform: Debates among North Indian Urdu Speakers". In Margrit Pernau, Helge Jordheim, Orit Bashkin (ed.). Civilizing Emotions: Concepts in Nineteenth Century Asia and Europe. Christian Bailey, Oleg Benesch, Jan Ifversen, Mana Kia, Rochona Majumdar, Angelika C. Messner, Myoung-kyu Park, Emmanuelle Saada, Mohinder Singh, Einar Wigen. Oxford University Press. pp. 169–186. ISBN 978-0-19-106269-8.
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- Pernau, Margrit (2019). Emotions and Modernity in Colonial India: From Balance to Fervor (in English and Urdu). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-099082-4.
Tony Capstick, University of Reading
- Tony Capstick is Lecturer in Applied Linguistics, University of Reading
- Capstick, Tony (2020). Language and Migration. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-351-20770-6.
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- Capstick, Tony (2020). Language and Migration. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-351-20770-6.
Mark Allen Peterson, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio
- Peterson, Mark Allen (2017). "Katibs and computers: Innovation and ideology in Urdu newspaper revival". In Minna Säävälä, Sirpa Tenhunen (ed.). Innovation as Social Change in South Asia: Transforming Hierarchies. Routledge. pp. 33–. ISBN 978-1-317-51681-1.
References
References
- ^ Brown, Judith Margaret (1994). Modern India: The Origins of an Asian Democracy. Oxford University Press. p. 180. ISBN 978-0-19-873113-9.
- ^ Robb, P. (2001), A History of India, London: Palgrave, ISBN 978-0-333-69129-8
- ^ Copland, Ian (2014). India 1885-1947: The Unmaking of an Empire. London: Longman. pp. 10, 57–58. ISBN 978-1-317-87784-4.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Bayly, C. A. (1987). Indian Society and the Making of the British Empire. Cambridge University Press. pp. 122–23. ISBN 978-0-521-38650-0.
- ^ Shackle, Christopher; Snell, Rupert (1990). Hindi and Urdu Since 1800: A Common Reader. Heritage Publishers. p. 32. ISBN 978-81-7026-162-9. Retrieved 24 September 2020.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Busch, Allison (2011). Poetry of Kings: The Classical Hindi Literature of Mughal India. Oxford University Press. pp. 214–15. ISBN 978-0-19-987743-0.
- ^ a b Page, David (2013). "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 157–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b Page, David (2013). "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 172–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b Page, David (2013). "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 158–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b Page, David (2013). "Language, nationhood and diaspora at the BBC Urdu Service". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 159–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b Pinkerton, Alisdair (2013). "The BBC in South Asia: From the end of Empire to the Cold War". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 141–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b Pinkerton, Alisdair (2013). "The BBC in South Asia: From the end of Empire to the Cold War". In Marie Gillespie, Alban Webb (ed.). Diasporas and Diplomacy: Cosmopolitan Contact Zones at the BBC World Service (1932-2012). Routledge. pp. 153–. ISBN 978-0-415-50880-3.
- ^ a b c d Harel-Shalev, Ayelet (2006), "The Status of Minority Languages in Deeply Divided Societies: Urdu in India and Arabic in Israel—a Comparative Perspective", Israel Studies Forum, 21 (2 (Winter 2006)), Berghahn Books: 28-57 (30 pages)
- ^ a b c Kiernan, V.G. (2013). Poems from Iqbal: Renderings in English Verse with Comparative Urdu Text. Oxford University Press and Iqbal Academy Pakistan. pp. xi–xiii. ISBN 978-0-19-906616-2.
- ^ Russell, Ralph (1992). "Faiz Ahmed Faiz: Poetry, Politics, and Pakistan". The Pursuit of Urdu Literature: A Select History. Zed Books. pp. 229–247. ISBN 978-1-85649-029-0.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help); External link in|chapterurl=|chapterurl=ignored (|chapter-url=suggested) (help)} - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. pp. 27–28. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. p. 28. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. pp. 28–29. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. p. 29. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Kiernan, V. G. (translator) (2000) [1971]. "Introduction". Poems by Faiz (in Urdu and English). Oxford University Press India. pp. 29–30. ISBN 978-0-19-565198-0.
{{cite book}}:|first=has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help) - ^ Dudney, Arthur D. (2018). "Urdu as Persianate: Some Eighteenth-Century Evidence on Vernacular Poetry as Language Planning". In Tyler Williams, Anshu Malhotra, John S. Hawley (ed.). Text and Tradition in Early Modern North India. Oxford University Press India. pp. 40–57. doi:10.1093/oso/9780199478866.003.0002. ISBN 978-0-19-909167-6.
{{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters:|trans_title=,|trans_chapter=,|chapterurl=,|laydate=,|laysummary=, and|authormask=(help)CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)
Comments
- Thanks for your comments, User:Fowler&fowler. However, we are not going to use your approach here. Disqualifying books written by academics and linguists of Indian origin about a language that originates in India is a foolish and inflammatory idea. Imagine if someone tried arguing that references by academicians from Great Britain aren't permitted in Wikipedia articles about the English language or Welsh language. I'll be taking into consideration the comments that were offered above and will work on a rewrite of the lede, which will probably be finished this December. Thanks, AnupamTalk 19:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- You are in no position to write the lead. You don't know the language in any depth. Why did it take 13 years? Only you and Kwami have been writing this nonsense. And why am I finding all the scholarly sources and you the Indian scholars of Indian English pronouncing on Urdu? I will challenge and revert anything you write. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Cherry-picking sources to support your POV won't work here and if you try to revert the consensus version, I will simply revert you back as I have been doing. No one, including users who are linguists, agreed with you at Talk:Hindustani language and no one agrees with you here. I will rewrite the lede based on the consensus above, supported by academic sources, that I and other users have been working on and you will have to accept it. It is very telling that you have called both the contributions of myself and User:Kwamikagami "nonsense", despite the fact that User:Kwamikagami is a well-respected linguist. You also rejected the incisive comment of User:Greenwhitedino above, who added that he was a linguist by resorting to ad hominem attacks on people of Indian descent. User:Kwamikagami, User:Kbb2, User:RaviC and myself accurately stated here at Talk:Urdu and Talk:Hindustani language that you are hidebound in your desire to interject South Asian language articles with your political prejudices and you have been warned of this before by many users on these talk pages (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D and Exhibit E). If you think that's going to fly here too, you are mistaken. It is best that you drop the WP:STICK and focus on editing elsewhere. If you want to contribute to this article, you will need to submit your suggestions here and allow neutral editors to review them as there is a broad consensus against your approach. As such, you will not edit the article directly. This article is about a language, not your political ideology. Kind regards, AnupamTalk 20:49, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- All hot air? Can I send a second jamaat Urdu-medium primer for you or Kwami to decipher real-time? What are the chances that anyone with second-grade knowledge of French could write an article on French language on Wikipedia? What are the chances that editors with no working knowledge of French could be voting there and having their vote count? Don't you think this is a little silly? There are major issues of cultural presumptuousness not to mention systemic bias here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler&fowler, another article where no one agrees with you. Wikipedia is no place to promote your prejudicial POV. This article is about a language of South Asia, not about the politics of India and Pakistan. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 05:06, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- All hot air? Can I send a second jamaat Urdu-medium primer for you or Kwami to decipher real-time? What are the chances that anyone with second-grade knowledge of French could write an article on French language on Wikipedia? What are the chances that editors with no working knowledge of French could be voting there and having their vote count? Don't you think this is a little silly? There are major issues of cultural presumptuousness not to mention systemic bias here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Anupam, look at these prejudicial statements user:Fowler&fowler made in the past. I found them posted on User talk:Austronesier.
If Hindu practice results in the deaths of thousands of individuals, as it does in this case, through water borne diseases, why should I "understand" why Hindus cause these deaths. Concern for human life is more important than cultural relativist kowtowing to a religion.
[1]We don't need papers in palaeogenomics to see that. We have only to look around to see the vast and brutal inequalities Hinduism has created in Indian society.
[2]During our visits to India, my family and I have very likely buried more stray dogs and cats, all either run over, or otherwise killed, by Ahimsa-loving Hindus, than the number of times editors here have uttered aloud the word Ahimsa. (Especially, cats (domesticated cats): have you wondered why their yowling is never heard in Hindu neighborhoods in India, except in the hills? That is because they are all shooed-away, or have rocks or sticks thrown at them, by superstition-loving Ahimsa-loving Hindus. You have to go to a Muslim neighborhood to see a cat.)
[3]Goodness knows, there were plenty European evangelists around to help them spiritually and British administrators to grant them economic and educational favors. But most Hindus chose to reassert their caste status or assert even higher caste status.
[4]What is all this Hindu garbage. The Hindus wore only draped clothes before the Muslim conquest of India.
[5]
I ask Sysop Graham Beards and Sysop Valereee, kindly inform this user:Fowler&fowler to stop their poor behaviour of being uncivil, WP:OWN and promoting prejudice all over Wikipedia. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 06:05, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- The diffs that Zakaria1978 posted regarding Fowler&fowler's previous statements about Hindus are concerning to me. We need to make sure that these personal beliefs don't affect any rewrites being proposed here. LearnIndology (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment @Fowler&fowler: I am bewildered about the proposed embargo against scholarship based on descent. If Bernard Comrie considers Yamuna Kachru worthy for contibuting to The World's Major Languages with a chapter about Hindi and Urdu, why should we bar ourselves from making use of sources by Y. Kachru? –Austronesier (talk) 09:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Austronesier: Please humor me this once. The restriction applies only to the topic: "Status of Urdu in South Asia," not to grammar, phonology, script, not even to the pre-20th-century history. Please see the list of scholars above. No scholar of Urdu of South Asian descent will say that it does not embody scholarliness sufficient to the purpose. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:27, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note that no such restriction exists here. Individuals are welcome to contribute to this article information and reliable sources, regardless of the ethnicity of the academic. Additions will be made to this article on the basis on consensus, as was taking place above. Kind regards, AnupamTalk 01:45, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- Another comment @Fowler&fowler: Maybe you have read my comments to Anupam's list below. I can only stress the same points here. V. G. Kiernan's excursions into the history of Urdu (and English) give me a shudder. Maybe it's the "party"'s voice, maybe even a "third-party" voice, but very obviously not a competent voice. –Austronesier (talk) 17:54, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see anything wrong in Kiernan's remarks on the history of Urdu. It was made as a result of contact between Muslims who entered India and infused Khadiboli/Hindustani with some Persian loanwords. LearnIndology (talk) 18:11, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Urdu and English both began, therefore, about the same time, as pidgin dialects, or hybrids, and gradually evolved into self-sufficient languages.
As long as the speech of a community is not used as a literary language, it is no language at all? That's a 19th-century elitists view, and ironically quite a reactionary one. This is what you get from dated, non-specialist sources. –Austronesier (talk) 20:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)- When the Britishers first ruled India, the Muslims were using Persian as their literary language. Hindustani was not the literary language, but the language of the people used in the bazaars, etc. In the colonial period, Hindustani was infused with Persian loanwords and that is called Urdu. That started to be used by the elite as a literary language. LearnIndology (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's the point. "Language of the people" hits the nail on the head, but "pidgin dialects"? The whole point of Fowler&fowler's excercise is to provide us with useful sources, but what is the use of adding sources which only become useful if we "translate" their rationale into proper encyclopedic language? –Austronesier (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- There are some good citations in Fowler&fowler's list but I agree with most people who have commented here that excluding South Asian academics is senseless. LearnIndology (talk) 20:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's the point. "Language of the people" hits the nail on the head, but "pidgin dialects"? The whole point of Fowler&fowler's excercise is to provide us with useful sources, but what is the use of adding sources which only become useful if we "translate" their rationale into proper encyclopedic language? –Austronesier (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- When the Britishers first ruled India, the Muslims were using Persian as their literary language. Hindustani was not the literary language, but the language of the people used in the bazaars, etc. In the colonial period, Hindustani was infused with Persian loanwords and that is called Urdu. That started to be used by the elite as a literary language. LearnIndology (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see anything wrong in Kiernan's remarks on the history of Urdu. It was made as a result of contact between Muslims who entered India and infused Khadiboli/Hindustani with some Persian loanwords. LearnIndology (talk) 18:11, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Kiernan was a major historian of the 20th century, the only one with a high level of knowledge of literary Urdu, whose translations in bilingual versions remain in print 50 years later, one published by Oxford University Press, Pakistan, the other by Oxford University, India. In the 50 years since, scholarship on the origins and history of Urdu has come a full circle. In the first 25 years, a number of linguists and Urdu scholars wrote on the topic, but they were not trained in the interpretation of historical manuscripts. Their work might have been good linguistics or Urdu scholarship, but was poor history. In the last 25 years, a new generation of multidisciplinarians with a high level of knowledge in Urdu, Hindi and related languages, are doing sophisticated manuscript-based research. Although they don't make old-fashioned global historical observations on Urdu, as some Urdu scholars and linguists did in the past, they are the ones who are bringing new insights to bear in the discussion. Scholars such as Ulrike Stark at Chicago, Margit Pernau at Berlin, Imgre Bangha at Oxford, the late Allison Busch are Columbia are among them. Inevitably the language changes, the linguists have pretty much used secondary historical sources, and historians can make the same objections as a linguist might of Kiernan. But as Kiernan was the first, he is appropriate. We have to change his pronouncements to contemporary encyclopedic language in the same way we need to translate the pronouncements of linguists on history. To give an example, when an inter-disciplinary scholar writes about the BBC Urdu On-line, a popular service, with 800,000 hits day, but requiring a reasonable level of literacy in Urdu, and it transpires that only 2% of the traffic is from India, it is hard for a linguist or Urdu scholar to maintain in a history that there has not been a precipitous decline of the script in the land of its birth, they simply do not have the tools for that avenue of research, unless they have balancing evidence (say hypothetically) that the Urdu-literate in India prefer to read print newspapers or somesuch. The true picture will need both interpretations. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
- Although the use of Urdu script has declined in India, I think it’s overstated to some extent. At the time of independence, only 16% of India’s population was literate (in any language), with the lowest literacy in northern India (the homeland of Hindi and Urdu), and there were more people literate in Hindi than Urdu. So only a fraction of the 16% literate population was literate in Urdu. Therefore never in the history of India has there been a large percentage of people literate in Urdu. What Urdu proponents find frustrating is that the literacy rate for all other Indian languages has significantly increased since independence but for Urdu is even less than it was before. Foreverknowledge (talk) 02:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Foreverknowledge: That is a good point and exactly the point not just relative to other languages in India, but to Urdu in Pakistan. Before 1947 literacy was even lower in what became west Pakistan. It was 4% compared to 16% for India. You can see the breakdown for Urdu speech and literacy in the 1951 Census of Pakistan here. But today a large percentage of Pakistanis are Urdu literate at a relatively high level of functioning (even as they continue to speak another language (Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto) at home). In contrast, for many native Urdu speakers in the former Urdu heartland in India, it is now the case that Urdu literacy after 1947 has declined with each generation to the point that even the vocabulary (and not just the script) is disappearing, a reverse of what has happened in Pakistan. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:03, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- Foreverknowledge, I continue to go through the edits of Fowler&fowler, and what I see is a pattern of trying to paint the country of India in a negative light, by what Fowler&fowler adds in articles along with pictures.[6][7][8][9] Most encyclopedia entries about Urdu discuss its official status, not what Fowler&fowler is trying to push here. Besides, there is evidence to suggest that what Fowler&fowler says is false too.[10][11] I'll be watching closely if Fowler&fowler tries to add material that is in line with this POV and will undo Fowler&fowler changes if Fowler&fowler ideologically-laden edits are made. I'm wise to it. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- Wow, those diffs are very troubling and seem to reflect a strong and clear bias. LearnIndology (talk) 19:02, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- Foreverknowledge, I continue to go through the edits of Fowler&fowler, and what I see is a pattern of trying to paint the country of India in a negative light, by what Fowler&fowler adds in articles along with pictures.[6][7][8][9] Most encyclopedia entries about Urdu discuss its official status, not what Fowler&fowler is trying to push here. Besides, there is evidence to suggest that what Fowler&fowler says is false too.[10][11] I'll be watching closely if Fowler&fowler tries to add material that is in line with this POV and will undo Fowler&fowler changes if Fowler&fowler ideologically-laden edits are made. I'm wise to it. Zakaria1978 ښه راغلاست (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
- @Foreverknowledge: That is a good point and exactly the point not just relative to other languages in India, but to Urdu in Pakistan. Before 1947 literacy was even lower in what became west Pakistan. It was 4% compared to 16% for India. You can see the breakdown for Urdu speech and literacy in the 1951 Census of Pakistan here. But today a large percentage of Pakistanis are Urdu literate at a relatively high level of functioning (even as they continue to speak another language (Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto) at home). In contrast, for many native Urdu speakers in the former Urdu heartland in India, it is now the case that Urdu literacy after 1947 has declined with each generation to the point that even the vocabulary (and not just the script) is disappearing, a reverse of what has happened in Pakistan. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:03, 27 September 2020 (UTC)