Talk:Violence against prostitutes

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abergin13. Peer reviewers: Mduno, DCirillo14, Courtwang.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 14 October 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): 17lpratt. Peer reviewers: Corrinfish.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Minor edits made

Hi Fellow Wikipedians, I made some minor copyedits to this article. Please see below for a comprehensive list of changes. Types of Violence: Physical – reworded a sentence to ensure that a number (82%) did not begin the sentence; moved word; rephrased sentence. Types of Violence: Psychological – rephrased sentence; changed letter capitalization; removed extra spaces; added comma. Types of Violence: Sexual – added comma; removed adverb; spelled out abbreviation. Contributing factors: Legal vs illegal sex work – removed space. Contributing factors: indoor vs outdoor working environment – added comma. Perpetrators: Serial killers – word change. Madtoups (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Potterat 2004 reference

A "204 per 100,000" homicide rate is presented for female prostitutes credited to "Potterat et al., 2004" which is vague and I would like to improve this reference. Looking through the publications of JJ Potterat in 2004 (the one I assume this refers to since they wrote on the subject) the only publication I came across in that year related to the issue was Mortality in a long-term open cohort of prostitute women published April 15. The abstract cites a 'crude mortality rate' of 391 per 100K overall (I think this means deaths per year for all, including ex-prostitutes not active) and a CMR of 459 per 100K for "the period of presumed active prostitution only".

It does say "The CMR for death by homicide among active prostitutes was 229 per 100,000" but this is not 204. I'm confused at where the 204 came from. Anyone have an idea? Some data within the body of the study not present in the abstract?

If we can find out the context of the 204 homicides (I'm assuming annually?) I'd like to know if that is for 'active' or overall. I'm led to think that if 229 is murdered actives that 204 might be overall, since presumably one is at least a slightly lower risk of homicide while not on the streets. Ranze (talk) 01:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The full article, which can be accessed free, says "The workplace homicide rate for prostitutes in the moving cohort (eight murdered on the job) was 204 per 100,000 person-years. The standardized mortality ratio for homicide in the cumulative cohort was 7.9, and in the moving cohort it was 17.7." This actually an extrapolation from a small sample of 9 deaths in a specific area. So presumably the extrapolated 15 others who were murdered are supposed not to have died "on the job", as it were (though the concept of "workplace" is somewhat probematic in this case, I would have thought). In fact I think the risk of homicide is not "slightly lower" for women who do not work on the streets, it's massively lower. The article refers to the 8 murders as occurring "while soliciting", so I assume they were all street-workers, since women in brothels do not directly 'solicit'. Paul B (talk) 18:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe half of all prostitutes die executed by security interests and another ten percent of even legally registered prostitutes may be murdered this may not be discovered because as even someone outside may plagiarize their past is protected by police for their providing case evidence another five percent may even be killed for acting as Crime Evidence, and another twenty percent die of dangerous contracted or resultant disease. and at least one percent may face execution for homicides related to the oldest profession or a psychological result of it. Currently there is a risk of a widespread security killer onslaught also termed "mass elimination" that is security backed or conducted mass effective homicide of prostitutes worldwide including in Portugal

You "believe"? Sorry, Wikipedia isn´t about your personal beliefs...91.16.222.207 (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

We should be using 'sex worker' not 'prostitutes'

It is 2014. Using prostitutes is slang and have a negative connotation. This is unacceptable. Sex worker is the correct term to be used in all context.

24.239.124.140 (talk) 15:23, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this notion, I'm not sure how we recommend a page for renaming though. The article itself even uses the phrase 'sex workers' rather than 'prostitutes', and the page Violence against prostitutes could be set up as a redirect --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 23:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I agreed also and did the move. Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Glad this is sorted --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:32, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagreed with this move and reverted it. The literature uses "violence against prostitutes" more frequently in my quick search, and the scope of this article is about prostitutes, not sex workers more generally, which includes a much broader variety of job descriptions. We have tons of articles and categories that use the term prostitute and it isn't regarded as an incorrect term here, so we shouldn't rename this article for that purpose - I think prostitutes makes the scope of this article more clear.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you bring up some actual sources rather than asserting that your quick search qualifies them as such? The article is specifically about sex workers and the word prostitutes is definitely slang with negative connotations and this isn't about the pejorative. Furthermore the article itself uses both. I'm reverting per WP:BRD as you are editing against consensus --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 18:53, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The article was updated only in the past 2 months, [1], a change we should likely revert, since every source used to build the article uses the term "prostitute" as far as I can tell. If you want to do a page move, your option is at WP:RM, not move-warring - but there is no consensus anywhere else on wikipedia that "prostitute" is an inappropriate term - indeed we categorize people as Category:Prostitutes. Sex worker is a much broader term, and while sometimes used as a euphemism for prostitute its use here muddies the waters and changes the scope of the article incorrectly - we aren't talking about violence against porn stars or violence against strippers - while such violence may occur, it would be best treated in different articles; violence against those who are involved in the sex trade, especially since this is often illegal, is a topic of special study and we shouldn't use euphemisms to avoid the way the literature used to build the article discusses the topic.

Another point, from Sex work, is the following: "Because of the agency associated with the term, "sex work" generally refers to voluntary sexual transactions; thus the term does not refer to human trafficking and other coerced or nonconsensual sexual transactions.". However, this article does cover a broader scope beyond voluntary "sex work", and includes trafficking, for example. Indeed, it might even be considered insulting to call a girl trafficked from nepal to an Indian brothel there to work against her will a "sex worker" vs a victim of forced prostitution.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

"Prostitute" is certainly not slang: it has a very long history as an established word in standard English. Whether it is desirable to replace it with the trendy "politically correct" expression "sex worker" is another matter. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

"the trendy politically correct expression sex worker" he says, without any prejudice... --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 11:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Drowninginlimbo: What has prejudice got to do with it? The expression "sex worker" is clearly trendy: it did not even exist when I was young, but in more recent times it has very rapidly become common. As for "politically correct", that is less easy to define, but I think the remarks above make it clear that the expression qualifies: it is an expression which we are told we should use instead of more traditional, standard English usage, by people who believe that it avoids undesirable connotations attached to the more traditional wording. Isn't that pretty well what "politically correct" suggests? OK, there is an edge to my use of the expression "politically correct", but that edge is about my attitude to the belief that insisting that people change words they use somehow contributes to improving the world, not about my attitude to prostitutes/sex-workers/whatever-else-anyone-may-prefer-to-call-them, which I can only assume from your comment is what you assumed. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:45, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

for me the main issue with 'sex worker' is (a) it suggests agency, and indeed it has been promoted as a term by people who voluntarily choose this line of work - but the scope here includes people who aren't doing it voluntarily and are even more prone to violence and (2) sex worker is ambiguous as it could refer to anyone in a broad variety of trades, which changes significantly the scope of the article.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

What word should we use for say the people who work in clothing sweatshops? Or just workers in general who are doing jobs they're only doing out of desperation for money?

There are many women formerly or currently in prostitution who do not use the term "sex worker" to describe themselves or who even outright reject it. "Sex worker" is a politically charged term. It implies that all women in prostitution experience the interactions with johns as sex and/or work. While some do, others experience it as violence and rape (see: Prostitution survivors movement). Using the term sex work erases all women who do not experience prostitution as a freely chosen occupation. One does not have to be trafficked or even pimped to experience prostitution as a form of violence. As pointed out earlier: Sex worker has been used by persons not actually prostituted - pimps for example (see: John Dockerty, Alejandra Gil, etc.). Prostitute is about as neutral as a term as we can get and if it's alright that is term that I will use. Additionally: Women and men who prefer the term sex worker are not thereby magically protected from violence. They experience much of the same violence as trafficking victims or persons prostituting due to poverty - and they are overwhelmingly targeted by the same group (pimps and johns). Elly Arrow" (talk) 01:26, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting; I see it almost the opposite of the way you do. To me, the word "prostitute" has whiffs of being unseemly, objectionable, nasty; whereas "sex worker" just seems descriptive and neutral. I wonder how others see it. Mathglot (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah, this topic hasn't had much discussion for a while, but I thought I'd chime in regardless. While I personally always use sex worker, I would have to agree that the term fails WP:COMMONNAME. Sex worker is a neologism at best, while prostitute is used and understood by the majority of English speakers. Nanophosis (talk) 01:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

People like Elly Arrow prefer the term prostitute specifically because it has negative connotations.

@Elly Arrow: The so called "survivors" and the views are questionable... there had been too many cases of fake prostitutes going to the public for publicity, money or christian ideology. One such cases was that of Lisa Heller in Hamburg, Germany. A priest and she claimed she was a forced prostitute, but the police found out she was only mentally ill. Real prostitutes make bad and good expiriences at work - like any other worker - not just expiriences that sound like they had been made in hell...91.16.222.207 (talk) 00:43, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Proposed edits

Hi I'd like to expand upon this article. I have a list of sources on my user page for anyone interested. I'd like to include more information about the prevalence of violence against prostitutes, especially in comparison to other women. I'd also like to expand upon the ramifications of the legality of prostitution in regards to violence among other things.Abergin13 (talk) 00:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

It is a good article, but there is too little based off of real life stories and situations, and what is present is situational and regional. It has to either expand to what the topic requires or narrow to a more specific topic. DCirillo14 (talk) 00:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)DCirillo14

Overall I think this is a great initial contribution. Like I said before I think that a bit more information about the specifics about what would be needed to explain how important and pressing of an issue this is. The information you added about the baby boomer generation aging is very important and I think some specifics about LGBT aging issues would further emphasize that. Other than that the small corrections about formatting and citations should be changed and then I think it’s o its way to being an A+ article!!Mduno (talk) 01:41, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

This is an excellent start on your work to improve this article. Keep up the good work! DStrassmann (talk) 20:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Awesome job with your expansion of this article! A few suggestions: I would think about how you frame statistics or information from a study conducted in one region or country and how it relates to the issue in other parts of the world. I also suggest splitting up the larger sections in to smaller paragraphs for better readability. Also, make sure all of your statements are backed up by proper sources. Keep up the good work! Dmaldonado08 (talk) 00:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Great revisions to the article! You made a lot of positive improvements and expansions, and brought some good information to the article in terms of sourcing. The imagery has been a struggle for you and I know that, but perhaps play around with different placement or different images. I don’t think the current arrangement befits the article well. Overall, great job! DCirillo14 (talk) 00:34, 5 November 2015 (UTC)DCirillo14

Hey Abergin13! You did a great job on all of your revisions and contributions to this page. I like how you added the section on "types of violence" because it is important that people know there is more than just physical violence against prostitutes. A few suggestions for improvements that I have: play around with the placement of your photos, maybe they would fit better in other sections. Also, make sure all of your idea are properly cited in the text so they don't sound biased. Overall, a great article!Courtwang (talk) 03:29, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Use of http://sexindustry-kills.de as a source

The following was posted on User_talk:Mathglot#Edits_on_violence_against_prostitutes, regarding the inclusion of statistics relating to murders of sex workers since decriminalization. I had suggested that sexindustry-kills.de was a biased source.

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with your rejection of Sex Industry Kills as a source however. Yes, it was created by an abolitionist group, but it is the most complete list of individual murder cases of prostitutes which I could find anywhere online. Most of the content of the page is just listing cases, refering to news articles as sources and summarizing information from those sources. If you know of a politically neutral page which has a list as comprehensive I will link to that instead. If I cannot link to a listing page however, I would have to give dozens of sources if I e.g. want to share the publically known number of prostituted women murdered before and after legalization in Germany/Netherlands/elsewhere. If I can't link to a list page, then I'll have to link to hundreds of individual cases, which doesn't seem like a good idea.

For example: Currently the page states that there was one murder of a prostituted woman since legalization inside a legal brothel in Germany. That is incorrect - there were 13. The problem is that no news source I could find has reported this number, because the cases are usually reported individually and rarely does a journalist make reference to a similar case (or a case that took place in the same brothel). How do I provide sources in such a case? Thank you for any advise and input in advance.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Elly Arrow (talk • contribs) 01:11, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

NO! Sexindustry-kills is a bad source. For example: Under "Prostituiertenmorde in Deutschland" (homicides of prostitutes in Germany) they also list prostitutes that haven´t been murdered but who died on an overdose of drugs. We can´t used such incorred and biased data here. 91.16.222.207 (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I think it is fine to use a biased source if no better source exists, though the sparsity of reliable sources may indicate how difficult it is to collect data in this area. It might be useful to preface the data with "According to the abolitionist group 'Sex Industry Kills'...".

I think the study by Dr Sanders et al from the University of Leicester is the best critique of the unreliability of sex worker homicide statistics, including a critique of sexindustry-kills.de:

Without more robust and detailed studies on sex worker homicide across jurisdictions it is impossible to draw any clear causal links between legal situations and sex worker homicide. That does not mean that sex worker homicide should be ignored in campaigning efforts. Individual case studies of sex worker homicide can be used to highlight the dangers inherent in existing laws and policy approaches to sex work. Caution must be exercised, however, in using the existing statistics on sex worker homicide to make blanket assertions about the success or failure of different sex work laws.

— Dr Sanders et al, The Use of Sex Worker Statistics in Campaigning

So I don't really see the usefulness of the existing data, but I wouldn't be opposed to the data being added to the page. AJ2265 (talk) 15:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you a lot! Then I will use the source in question and mention that it is an abolitionist group. Sex Industry Kills is advocating that the German state start collecting statistics on the murders of prostituted women, so that we have something more reliable to work with to be able to assess which laws protect women best. Nonetheless I would conclude from the data collected on this page, that it is worth mentioning that the most likely killer of a prostituted woman is a john or a pimp (compared to the rest of the female population, where the most likely killer is a romantic partner). Is it alright for me to point out this trend (which can be found looking at the murders of prostituted women globally)? Elly Arrow (talk) 15:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:No original research. Drawing your own conclusions from the data is not permitted. AJ2265 (talk) 14:04, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Elly Arrow: You claim that the most likely murderer of a prostitute is a John? And you used this biased collection for that? Sorry, but that site is just ideological crap.91.16.222.207 (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Adding Sources on Violence Towards Trans Prostitutes

Hello everyone--I have been looking into making some additions in regard to transgender prostitutes' experiences with violence in sex work. I have found a few academic sources that I will be using to help expand the article:

Sausa, Lydia A., JoAnne Keatley, and Don Operario. "Perceived Risks and Benefits of Sex Work among Transgender Women of Color in San Francisco." Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 36, no. 6, 2007, pp. 768-77. ProQuest, https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.albany.edu/docview/205940640?accountid=14166, doi:http://dx.doi.org.libproxy.albany.edu/10.1007/s10508-007-9210-3.

Logie, Carmen H., et al. “Factors Associated with Sex Work Involvement among Transgender Women in Jamaica: A Cross-Sectional Study.” Journal of the International AIDS Society, vol. 20, Jan. 2017, pp. 1–10. EBSCOhost, doi:10.7448/IAS.20.1.21422.

Moorman, Jessica D., and Kristen Harrison. “Gender, Race, and Risk: Intersectional Risk Management in the Sale of Sex Online.” Journal of Sex Research, vol. 53, no. 7, Sept. 2016, pp. 816–824. EBSCOhost, doi:10.1080/00224499.2015.1065950.

Nemoto, Tooru, et al. “Social Support, Exposure to Violence and Transphobia, and Correlates of Depression Among Male-to-Female Transgender Women With a History of Sex Work.” American Journal of Public Health, vol. 101, no. 10, Oct. 2011, pp. 1980–1988. EBSCOhost, doi:10.2105/AJPH.2010.197285.

17lpratt (talk) 16:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)