Talk:Virgin Islands Creole

The sound of the "ah"

Trying to tie up some dead links, should the æ link be directed to:

æ -the old english letter and sound

or

Near-open front unrounded vowel - the vowel sound

Currently the link is pointing to the "ash" disambig page. Thanks for the help! --Knulclunk 20:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I pointed the link to æ | Near-open front unrounded vowel after further investigation. --Knulclunk 19:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

translation section

I removed the whole section of "translations" as Wikipedia is not a place for indiscriminate lists and is not a place to find or put translations. Example phrases are appropriate but they should be sourced and their inclusion justified. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

SSS islands

Per Ethnologue, VI Creole is also spoken in the windward Neth. Ant. (SSS). Someone just reverted, saying we already have a Saint Martin Creole article; actually, that is now a redirect here. It had claimed that St Maarten is a dialect of Antiguan, without any sources that I could verify that claim with, when AFAIK it's actually a dialect of VI, though not perhaps as close as Statian and Saban. It seems from Ethnologue that some of the islands of VI and SSS may be closer to each other than they are to other islands within their own country ("St. Croix, St. Eustatius, St. John, and Saba are most similar"), which would make separating VI and SSS creoles difficult, and of course OR unless we have other sources.

Holm, Pidgins and Creoles, supports this ("Despite the political fragmentation of the area, their [Virgin Islands'] Creole English belongs with that of the Commonwealth Leeward and Dutch Windward Islands, although on several islands it has been influenced on the lexical and possibly other level by its coexistence with creolized Dutch.") and cites sources that English creole is the dominant lang on both sides of the island of St. Martin. — kwami (talk) 18:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Difference between VI and Saint Martin

I am from the VI and have traveled to St. Martin several times. Although the dialects are similar, they are in fact, different. Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=AN) has the dialect of the Dutch Windward Islands listed as a separate dialect of its own. The "Pidgins and Creoles" text by Holm excerpt states that VI creole is related to Commonwealth Leeward and Dutch Windward Islands. It says nothing about the creole of Dutch Windward Islands being classified as a form of "Virgin Islands Creole". 66.248.188.34 (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand that they are different. Ethnologue states that it's Statian and Saban which are particularly close to Cruzan, not St Martin, but list St Martin as a dialect. But even if St Martin were a distinct language, that doesn't mean that Statian and Saban are. Also, if you'd read the entry, or followed the links, you'd see that "Netherlands Antilles Creole English" is used as just another name for "Virgin Islands Creole English": The fact that some people speak "Australian" and some "Canadian" doesn't mean that they're different languages. I guess we should use both in the name of this article.

Also, you're restoring the claim that St. Martin is a dialect of Antiguan. Do you have any ref for that? ISO standards have St. Martin as a dialect of Virgin Islands/Netherlands Antilles Creole English, not Antiguan. Of course, they could be wrong, but we need a ref for that. — kwami (talk) 18:42, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The Netherlands Antilles is not the Virgin Islands!!! You are potentially offending thousands of Virgin Islanders by including the Dutch Windward islands into the Virgin Islands Creole article. Unless you are making grammatical corrections, it would be wise to leave these types of decisions up to Wikipedia-ers who are actually from the Virgin Islands or the Dutch Windward islands. "Saint Martin Creole" covered the "SSS islands" of St. Maarten, Saba and St. Eustatius. "Virgin Islands Creole" explores the creole dialect, as it pertains to the Virgin Islands, as well as its evolution from slavery to colonialism to contemporary Virgin Islands life. It is specific to the VIRGIN ISLANDS, not the Netherlands Antilles. While their dialect is very similar, it is in fact in a different category. I am from the Virgin Islands and this is common knowledge. The information on Ethnologue is incorrect. Whoever wrote that reference made the incorrect assumption that the Dutch Windward Islands spoke a form of "Virgin Islands Creole" and it ended up being accepted as fact on Ethnologue.Vgmaster (talk) 19:57, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Then you should be able to find some references to support your claims. Although you may know exactly what you are talking about, and Ethnologue has been wrong before, I unfortunately cannot simply take your word for it: most people are quite clueless where there native language is concerned. For example, I have a friend, a native English speaker, who insists that English is a Romance language. He can cite any number of English-Spanish cognates to prove his point, but of course he is utterly wrong.

You say, "While their dialect is very similar, it is in fact in a different category." That suggests to me that it's the same language, or why would you call it a "dialect"? Can you understand the speech of Statius? If so, one would normally consider it the same language. (Ethnologue implies that Statian and Cruzan are closer than Statian and St Martin.) Also, you say that St. Martin is NA Creole, but then classify it as Antiguan Creole, again without a ref.

Surely there must be a source out there that considers both VI and NA creoles, which after all share a common history. For all I know, it may be best to consider them the same language as Antiguan, in which case a Windward Islands Creole might be the language, with VI, NA, and Antiguan being the equivalent of Canadian English, US English, etc. But if that's the case, they shouldn't be classified as distinct languages. — kwami (talk) 06:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I asked for advice at Wikiproject Languages. Hopefully s.o. there has the knowledge I don't, or the sources you don't. — kwami (talk) 07:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Antigua reference in the now-defunct Saint Martin creole article I had reposted was definitely incorrect and I had forgotten to omit it, as Antiguan is very distinct!

As for the VI/Netherlands Antilles dialects, let's mention them for now, pending additional references that may or may not show otherwise. The dialects are, in fact, VERY similar, but because St. Maarten/Saba/St. Eustatius are outside the Virgin Islands geographically, it's not typically seen as being "Virgin Islands Creole" even if the structure is mostly the same. Rather, it's seen as some other dialect that happens to be similar to ours. I will discuss this anomaly with local experts in the field of language/dialect and see what their perspective is. Vgmaster (talk) 21:27, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Partially it would be a question of what the purpose of this article is. Normally we have a page for each language, so if VI and NA are the same language (by criteria of mutual intelligibility), one would normally expect them to be covered by the same article. In this case, though, there is no name for the language. I agree that it's a bizarre case, but then we use "English", "French", and "Spanish" for language communities outside England, France, and Spain; what would make this so different?

We also have articles for dialects and national standards. Usually, however, we don't have an article on a dialect or standard if we don't have an article on the language itself. So far there's been no response at WP:Languages as to the scope of this article; maybe no-one there knows enough about it to feel qualified to answer.

Perhaps it's difficult to define what the language is in this case? Does it stop at VI and NA, or would it include Antiguan? Are VI and NA creoles even coherent entities, or are Cruzan and Statian closer to each other than they are to other islands in the VI and NA, as Ethnologue implies, so that "VI creole" would be a purely geographic concept, not a linguistic one? I look forward to the perspectives of your local experts. — kwami (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus for move. billinghurst sDrewth 17:04, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

---

Virgin Islands Creole → Virgin Islands / Netherlands Antilles Creole — I agree that it's weird, and misleading, to have an article titled "Virgin Islands Creole" that covers Netherlands Antilles Creole. Should we maybe rename the article "Virgin Islands / Netherlands Antilles Creole", matching the name in the info box, to alert readers from the beginning of its scope? — kwami (talk) 20:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not think it is appropriate to combine the two into the same title. It would make things more confusing for readers. There are no references anywhere that refer to any "Virgin Islands / Netherlands Antilles Creole." Renaming "Virgin Islands Creole" to "Virgin Islands / Netherlands Antilles Creole" is even more confusing than the present setup, especially for readers and Wikipedians from these regions because the dialects are not widely perceived as being the same.

If linguists consider "Netherlands Antilles Creole" to be a form of "Virgin Islands Creole," then perhaps the most fair move is to create a separate page for "Netherlands Antilles Creole", and include a sentence describing how it is considered by linguists to be a form of Virgin Islands Creole. That way, Wikipedians from the Netherlands Antilles can update the "Netherlands Antilles Creole" with information specific to those islands, such as the dialect's evolution and place in society as it pertains to the Netherlands Antilles. Vgmaster (talk) 00:59, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

From what I can tell, NA is not a "dialect"; rather, each island has its own accent/dialect, and some in the NA and VI are closer to each other than they are to other islands within their own countries. So we'd have two language articles distinguished by geography rather than by language, quite an odd state of affairs. What about an article for the actual language? That's what I thought this should be. — kwami (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever been to the Virgin Islands or the Netherlands Antilles or heard these dialects spoken? It is common knowledge here that the creole spoken in the Netherlands Antilles have more in common with the British Virgin Islands than what the Netherlands Antilles have with the U.S. Virgin Islands, not what was written in Ethnologue. Also, the consensus I've found from the experts I've consulted with is that although "Netherlands Antilles Creole" is very similar to "Virgin Islands Creole," it cannot be classified as "Virgin Islands Creole," as the Netherlands Antilles are not in the Virgin Islands.

Also, I see that you are mistaken on one particular point - you seem to think is some standard Virgin Islands Creole "language" in the region, with each island having a "dialect" of said "language." This is incorrect. Each island has their own English-based creole, which leads me to an excellent point you made about geographic vs. linguistic designation.

"VI Creole" and "NA Creole" are geographic groupings (a "catch-all" term, so to speak) of the creoles of individual islands. There is no standard "VI Creole" language with a "subcategory" of dialects. "VI Creole" consists of the creoles of St. Croix, St. Thomas, St. John, Tortola, Virgin Gorda, Anegada, Jost van Dyke, etc. "NA Creole" consists of the creoles of St. Martin, Saba, and St. Eustatius.

With those great points you made, I suggest we create two articles - "Virgin Islands Creole", describing it as some sort of grouping terminology for the individual creoles spoken on the different Virgin Islands, while doing the same for "Netherlands Antilles Creole."Vgmaster (talk) 01:51, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The move was just a suggestion; since no-one seems to like it, I guess we can stay where we are. (I'd delete the template, but that might cause some accounting problem.)

It doesn't surprise me Ethnologue got it wrong. No, I haven't been to the Islands.

it cannot be classified as "Virgin Islands Creole," as the Netherlands Antilles are not in the Virgin Islands. I'm sorry, but that's like saying that American cannot be classified as English, because the US is not in England, or Mexican cannot be classified as Spanish, because Mexico is not in Spain. What we call a thing does not change what that thing is.

some standard Virgin Islands Creole "language" in the region, with each island having a "dialect" of said "language". I didn't think there's a standard VI creole. However, that's not what a "language" is, at least not in the linguistic sense. A language does not need a standardized form to be a language. In fact, few of the world's 6000 languages do.

Each island has their own English-based creole. That would imply that each island speaks a different language, and that they can therefore not understand each other. From a linguistic POV, there are speech communities which can understand each other, and those are together considered "languages". Within a language, there may be some communities which are divergent, but still intelligible; those are "dialects" of said language. If VI and NA speakers understand each other, then they speak the same language, even if that language has no name. (There are, BTW, hundreds of languages which have no name, and which are therefore typically hyphenated in the lit, like say (I'm just making this up) "VI-NA Creole".) Creoles, though previously considered primitive, today don't generally get any special treatment: They're just languages, though often with a history that may shed some light on the nature of human language and language evolution, and which makes them problematic to classify. (Though VI is an English creole, and English is a Germanic language, VI is not classified as a Germanic language, because as a creole it does not have a single ancestor.)

If VI Creole is just a geographic grouping, then we should make clear in the article that it is not a language, not a creole, but a term of convenience. I expect that would make for some rather contorted reading. ("VI Creole is not a creole, but a group of creoles, all of which are the same language, and also the same language as the NA creoles"?)

I don't see a point to two articles for one language. They would cover the same material (grammar, phonology, vocab), violating content forking. If there were enough language politics to make up two articles just on politics, as there are say at Croatian and Serbian, Urdu and Hindi, or Malay and Indonesian (each pair of which are the same language), that might warrant a split, but even in such politicized cases, a split is not always warranted. The Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics, for example, does not have separate articles for Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian, but lumps them together. Meanwhile, we have almost nothing to say of NA Creole apart from "NA Creole is an English creole spoken in the NA. It's the same language as VI Creole." — kwami (talk) 02:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title reflects the overwhelming proportion of the article's content. If any unique information on the creoles of the Dutch Antilles surfaces, perhaps it would be better placed in its own article. — AjaxSmack 02:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose It is doubtful that we will even be talking about Netherlands Antilles Creole by next year, as the country is abolishing itself in three months time. I know that sounds like crystal ball gazing, but now is not a sensible time to change the title. Let's wait and see what names the languages spoken on the three islands go under in the future. Skinsmoke (talk) 04:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Netherlands Antilles Creole

Now that the NA are dissolved, is the term NA Creole still used? We should probably retain it for historical reference, of course, but is it accurate to say it *is* aka NA Creole? — kwami (talk) 01:09, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I suspect the term was never used to begin with, even among scholars, and was invented by either Ethnologue or some other linguistic source in order to distinguish the NA variety from the varieties found in the Virgin Islands.

As to whether the usage of "NA Creole" is currently appropriate, I do not think so, since it involves a defunct country's name.Vgmaster (talk) 01:30, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Whether it's appropriate is rather irrelevant; the question is whether it's used. Of course, if it never was used, there's no reason to have had it in the first place. — kwami (talk) 06:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

It WAS used by Ethnologue to distinguish the Dutch-island varieties from the VI varieties when the Dutch islands were under the political entity known as the "Netherlands Antilles". As for whether it IS used, I do not think so. Since the Dutch islands are now separate political entities, it is more appropriate to name the varieties in these islands "Saban/Statian/St. Martin Creole" (terms already in use in several linguistic sources)Vgmaster (talk) 14:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

But that's merely your guess. We still call the language of the USA, Oz, SA, and NZ "English" despite those now being independent countries. You could argue that the name is "inappropriate", but that's still the name in use. Same for Spanish, Portuguese, and French. People don't speak "Mexican", unless you mean Nahuatl. In other cases a language does go by different names in different countries: Malaysian & Indonesian, Serbian & Croatian, even for a while Romanian & Moldovan. So is VIC like English, or like Malay? The only source you gave was Ethnologue, which did not support your edit. And regardless of whether it is like Malay, the term NAC would still be found in the lit, and so of course would still need to at least be mentioned as an alternative name in the lede. (Unless it really only was a minor detail of Ethnologue, in which case we can probably relegate it to a footnote.)

Do you have any refs that 'NAC' is defunct as a label, or that it was restricted to Ethn? — kwami (talk) 19:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Syllable-timed?

I can't find this anywhere in Wikipedia--is VI Creole (and are English creoles in general) syllable-timed rather than stressed-timed, unlike English? Duoduoduo (talk) 16:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)