Talk:Vitali Klitschko/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Three time heavyweight champ claims

Is it necessary to mention Ali and others? It seems so irrelevant and a little bit biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.252.169.94 (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Does he really have a doctorate?

Does he really have a doctorate? What's it in? —Chowbok 21:32, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, both brothers have doctorated degrees (strictly speeking it is the degree of "candidate of sciences", which is fully compliant, as recognized by Eurocomission and UNESCO) as sport-eduacationalist. They have got the degrees after finishing a rather simple college, followed, however by normal 3-year PhD studies in Kiev. The PhD thesis of Vitali was also presented in German University of Bundeswehr as a scientific work. It seems, that Vitaly's thesis(" Defining abilities of boxer in a system of multistage athletic selection") is more serious as scientific work, involving some philosophical questions, than Wladimir's work. The weight of the last, in my opinion, is highly questionable.

Trivia

Removed the line about Klitschko being the only heavyweight champion to have never been knocked down. There are at least two more heavyweight champions who have never been down: Nikolay Valuev and Oliver McCall. --AGP 04:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Partially restored the text, in accordance with your comment. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 06:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

LETS NOT FORGET VITALI NEVER FOUGHT TYSON! GARBAGE INFO ON THIS PAGE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.184.121.33 (talk) 20:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats funny. He would have destroyed Tyson. Literally. Tyson was so far gone by the time Vitaliy came to the forefront of boxing that it would have been a massacre. I know you cant compare wins and losses, but seriously, look what Lewis did to Tyson...twice. Tyson WAS a bad sumbitch, but that was before he spent time in prison and got handled by Douglas.

If I'm not mistaken, Vitaly was knocked out by one light-punching Chris Byrd.....Heaven forbid one of the Tyson's punches landed on "Dr." Klitshko. There would be a day of mourning in Ukraine that day.

The above comment was written by a moron. Vitali has never actually lost a fight. He was easily beating Byrd when his shoulder went, and he was easily beating Lewis when he got cut. The cut was actually caused by the tape off Lewis's glove rather than a punch and by rights, it should have gone to the scorecards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.174.77 (talk) 00:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

He wasn't knocked out at all. That fight is recorded as a TKO win for Byrd because the rules state that when one fighter retires from a fight, the other is awarded a TKO win. In that fight, Vitali was unable to continue, due to an injury which was not inflicted by Byrd. If you knew anything about boxing rules or about this fight, you would know this. Heck, Sugar Ray Leonard is credited with a TKO win for the "no mas" fight, even though he couldn't have knocked Roberto Duran down with a baseball bat. That's just how the rules call it. And if Tyson had fought Vitali, he never would have gotten inside to land a punch. Vitali would have beat the tar out of him throwing jabs, the same way Lennox did. Jsc1973 (talk) 19:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

BIRTHPLACE

according to boxrec vitali was born in Belovodsk, Kyrgyzstan

When he was born it was the USSR - hence not listed as Kyrgyzstan.--Stick Negative (talk) 13:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't Kyrgystan one of the Soviet Socialist Republics of which the USSR was a Union? (Joe Frazier wasn't born in Pennsylvania, it was considered "US".) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.89.65 (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Link Fix

Will someone please redirect the link from Kevin Johnson (basketball player), to Kevin Johnson (boxer)? Jot2b (talk) 15:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Failed Drug Test

Why no reference to Vitali's failed drug test in 1996? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.75.129.200 (talk) 12:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I guess because no one has added it. It is significant enough to be in the article.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

germany

i missed the relationship to germany ! Cause both Klitschkos love this land and are "Thank u" him! Thats also why most of their fights are their! And most Germans are proud of them, even if they doesn't haver a german passport! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.18.194 (talk) 05:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Hence the German transliteration "Klitschko" instead of "Klychko" or something. --84.119.49.159 (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Which is why it's ridiculous of some Wikipedia editors to put his transliteration as if it's an actual name that exists, cuz it doesn't. The only legitimate Roman-alphabet version of his name is Vitali Klitschko. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loginnigol (talk • contribs) 13:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

kickboxing

"In 1992 he was knocked out in the final of the European Kickboxing Championships +89 kgs Light-Contact division". This must be a mistake. There are no knockdowns or knockouts in Light Contact. All fights are scored. Either it was not a light contact fight or there was no knockout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.124.188.205 (talk) 21:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

There are knockdowns and knockouts in Light Contact, but the fighter who delivered the blow may be disqualified for not having control of his attack.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 20:14, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

There are no knockouts in a full-contact sense (no 8 or 10-count). There is no official record of a knockout in this fight because light contact bouts are scored regardless of the cause of stoppage. There is no validated source of what really happened in that fight. Vitali said in the interview that it was a leg kick that stop the fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.99.176 (talk) 16:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

No, bouts aren't always scored after a stoppage. What interview with Vitali are you referring to?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

http://www.ironlife.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15625 Fightnews interview in 2003. Q: "Prior to your fight with Lennox, many had questioned your ability to take a punch - all because of a KO loss you sustained several years ago to a British fighter named Pele Reid early in your kickboxing career. After your fight with Lennox, you showed that you definitely have a solid chin and proved that the sceptics were wrong. Can you explain what really happened in your fight with Pele?" VK: "Who is Pele Reid? It was so long ago that I forgot all about him. Nobody knows who Pele Reid is. My fight with him was a semi-contact kickboxing match 12 years ago. I lost that fight because of a kick to my thigh, not a punch. Lennox is the biggest puncher in the world and he could not knock me out."

Gary Turner put forth the only account that being head-kick KO. There is no direct evidence exists of what really happened. I don't think anybody corroborated Turner's story yet. There is a discussion here: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f42/vitali-klitskos-kickboxing-record-418125/index3.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.99.176 (talk) 16:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

This article http://www.boxnews.com.ua/en/news/1770/2005-08-09/The-Man-Who-Knocked-Vitali-Klitschko-Out-What-Really-Happened- corroborates.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It does not list the author or the source and the original article is no longer available.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.99.176 (talk) 21:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Here is the original: http://www.boxingtalk.com/pag/article.php?aid=4719 --SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 20:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

thanks. It would be nice to get a second source or an official record though (are you sure it was WAKO tournament - below)?

"1992 he was knocked out in the final of the European Kickboxing Championships" - W.A.K.O. canceled European championship in 1992 because of Balkan War. List_of_WAKO_Amateur_European_Championships —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.99.176 (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The list you linked to doesn't say anything about the 1992 championship in Varna, Bulgaria being cancelled. Do you have a source that says it was cancelled?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 04:57, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

http://www.wakoweb.com/en/InfoPage.aspx?Ctn=82088 http://frenchboxing.blogspot.com/2010/12/wako-and-balcane-influence.html

WAKO canceled european championships in 1992 and 1994 due to balkan war — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.213.109 (talk) 05:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I was a competitor on that tournament - 1992 European Semi- and Lightcontact in Varna, Bulgaria. This fight was the last, and the most interesting in this competition. Klitschko got a nice spinning kick an was certainly and clearly knocked out. Klitschko was long time on the floor before standing up - so powerful was the kick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.152.174.250 (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Amateur footage of this fight has finally been posted on YouTube, so perhaps the "dubious" tag can now be removed. The video certainly corroborates the claims made previously, in that Pelé Reid did indeed knock out Vitali Klitschko with a spinning back kick to the chin in the second round. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 11:18, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Political positions

This press release is from the UDAR Party led by Klitschko does give some insight in his political ideas. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:14, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

"Late Career"

This section is written in very poor English. Can someone help clean it up to Wikipedia's standards? 92.19.47.227 (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by David-golota (talk • contribs) 21:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

block ip adress 178.99.165.176?

can you block him? He seems to ruin and edit every bodys work. All the time. And his language is very bad to, .

I mean. Look at his language and how he speaks to peolpe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/178.99.165.176

David-golota (talk) 23:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed that IP needs to be blocked. The section has been cleaned up a bit and hopefully it can stay that way now 92.19.45.210 (talk) 11:38, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Given name

People keep reverting me (ironic since I'm the one who put his birth name in the article in the first place) but his birth name is by official Ukrainian conversion rules "Vitalii" with two i's. It would be "Vitaliy" if we go by the somewhat depreciated BGN/PCGN or French guide, and Vitalij if we use German. For whatever reason, despite his common name being via the German guide, it's shortened to Vitali (possibly because it was translated from Russian into German and usually a -yy ending gets turned into -y for redundancy reasons). Now, I'm actually in support of using "-iy" endings on Ukrainian given names on articles where precedent doesn't exist - because the BGN/PCGN "Vitaliy" is the more common way it's seen in English at the moment - but in this case his most common name, Vitali, is actually closer to the spelling of the name that's on his passport at the moment--Львівське (говорити) 03:09, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

As I know, according to the rules for the transliteration of Ukrainian, usually use -y for -ий/-ій.--Юе Артеміс (talk) 14:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 February 2012

Vitali Klitschko V Dereck Chisora

Vitali Klitschko retained his WBC championship belt unanimously in a dominant display in Munich. The fight was fought against a backdrop of antagonism displayed by the contender Dereck Chisora at the weigh in. Dereck unmagnanimously slapped Vitali across the face causing a red mark to be left. The next day Dereck not content enough with that stunt spat water over the face of Vitali's brother Wladimir in unbelievable scenes.

The fight itself was valiant by Chisora, who constantly marched forward letting his shots off with some success. Vitali at times was actually put on the back foot by Chisora which surprised many critics who predicted a mismatch. Indeed, few in the boxing world envisaged the fight going the distance but the underdog from Hampstead North London done well and Vitali certainly knew he was in a fight. Vitali towards the end of the fight showed vulnerability and although dominating the fight Chisora did command in spurts some of the action and the signature jab which for years has been a hallmark of the Klitschko's success was almost non-existent for most of the fight such was the efficacy of Chisora in getting inside and in putting Vitali on the back foot. In the end, despite this it was obvious that Chisora needed a knockout to win the fight and he tried to land a few ferocious blows which were far too telegraphed for the consummate champion Vitali. Dereck Chisora nonetheless has put in a dogged performance and probably has had the most success since Lennox Lewis fought Vitali and controversially stopped him. Yet again however, the heavyweight division remains dominated by one name "Klitschko" and the public are left wondering who can beat the two brothers who have controlled the division for over a decade.

At the post fight press conference a brawl ensued between David Haye and Dereck Chisora. Dereck Chisora has since been arrested at a German airport along with his coach Don Charles. After the altercation Dereck Chisora challenged David Haye to a fight in the ring and said, "I am going to shoot David Haye." His comments and actions were later condemned by Frank Warren his promoter and Wladimir Klitschko. As the heavyweight melting pot sizzles on it seems there may well be a possible future fight for Vitali Klitschko in either Dereck Chisora again or David Haye. However, one thing is certain and that is that Vitali Klitschko only has a few more fights left in him and if a fight does come into fruition few would be surprised if it turned out to be his last.

Humphrey54321 (talk) 17:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This is written in a very biased manner, and needs to be cleaned up. 92.7.97.73 (talk) 16:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree as well, it makes it sound like Vitali has become a shot fighter and Chisora was on the verge of knocking him out which is ridiculous — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aussieswimmer (talk • contribs) 12:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Arm was not in a sling

If you saw Wlad's last fight, Vitali's arm was not in a sling and was assisting in holding titles belts (that are not light I can assure you) perhaps tabloids may have over-exaggerated this injury. Dunno if it's valid enough to put in the article but hey just reporting what i saw. god bless — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aussieswimmer (talk • contribs) 12:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

^[1] ^[2] ^[3] ^[4] Humphrey54321 (talk) 19:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Why Lineal shouldn't be here

Let's go back to when the Lineal/The Ring title didn't exist. Back then, there was only a World Champion.

Then the title's were split. First between the WBA (Known also by othernames) and WBC, then later the IBF was recognized and even later the WBO.

When the titles were first split, The Ring Magazine created a The Ring title. This belt was awarded to all reigning World Champions. Challengers could win it by beating them. Should someone vacate it, the only way to win it would be to be recognized by The Ring as the No.1 or No.2 fighter in your division and beat the other man ranked 1 or 2 (Some exceptions were made for No.3)

Then came the unfortunate decision in the 1990s by The Ring to stop awarding these titles. But they did not stop ranking fighters. When the No.1 and No.2 fighters fought and a victor came out, that person was dubbed the Lineal Champion.

An example is Floyd Mayweather, Jr.; Lineal Super Featherweight Champion from 1998-2001 (Ring belts were awarded again in 2002).

Mayweather worked his way up to the No.2 spot and challenged No.1 and WBC Champion Genaro Hernández. He was considered the Lineal Champion because there was no The Ring Champion.

Naseem Hamed won the Lineal title and lost it in a period when The Ring titles weren't being awarded. The man who beat him for his title, Marco Antonio Barrera, was later awarded The Ring title. His Lineal title was switched with the The Ring title because the Lineal title only existed as a substitute.

This applies for Lennox Lewis. He was awarded the The Ring title when awarding them began again in 2002. Therefore, the Lineal title was NOT on the line in his fight with Vitali Klitschko. Any objections? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:00, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

TheShadowCrow is talking nonsense as usual. The Lineal and The Ring titles are separate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.99.13.172 (talk) 19:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Coming from someone who has literally been banned dozens of times.

I gotta be honest. I agree with 178.99.13.172. Sorry mate. But this is just nonsense. The Lineal and the Ring title are not the same! And Lennox Lewis was the Lineal Champion.

David-golota (talk) 00:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is that? Please just explain why like I did. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

It is common sense. The Lineal title regin ended with Lewis because he retired. http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm

Since the itroduction of WBA, IBF and WBC there has not been a champion that retired as a Lineal champion. Until Lewis did.

The purpose of The Ring title is to be the lineal title in materialistic form. Why can't anybody see that? Yes, Lewis (on paper) retired with it. Then Vitali won the vacant Lineal by being ranked the No.1 Heavyweight and beating the No.2 ranked Heavyweight, Corrie Sanders. Should we put Lineal there? No, it's pointless. It's like a real title; vacating it doesn't destroy it. If Vitali retires WBC Champion, that doesn't mean no one can win the title ever again. The two best in the WBC will fight for it. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

COme on dude. If Wladimir beats Vitali he will become the Lineal Champion. Beacuse he will be the man, who beat the man. Vitali never beat the man. Lewis retired. And Corrie Sanders wasnt the man.

David-golota (talk) 23:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

How does one become the man? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, how do you become the man? I've never met Vitali or Natalia, but I'm pretty sure Vitali is the man. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

With The Ring's new policy there is no doubt that being the Ring Champion and Lineal Champion is so not the same.

Discussion closed.

David-golota (talk) 01:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Discussion not closed. What policy? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 19:37, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Come on dude? Get in the battle. Every boxing fan have heard of it.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/172677-the-ring-updates-championship-policy

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum/showthread.php?17417-THE-RING-updates-championship-policy

http://queensberry-rules.com/2012-articles/may/the-horrible-new-ring-magazine-championship-policy.html

David-golota (talk) 03:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

So this rule existed back then to? The Ring clearly stated this is due to difficulty getting the best two guys to fight eachother. If something becomes a rule five years from now, it doesn't mean it's illegal to do it today. Back then The Ring title was a material form of the Lineal title. Simple as that.

I really respect you and your opinion and you make very good edits, but I'm getting tired of this. Not once have you defined what being "the Man" is. I think it's time to accept I'm right this time. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No you are not. For good sake. Being the means mean that you are beatting every top contender that are out there and both Wladimir and Vitali has don so. But they have not faced eachother.

I should not even explain this to you. As a boxing fan, you should now this by your own. David-golota (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The lineal title is not an official title. It isn't the replacement for nor has it been replaced by the Ring magazine title. Lewis was the lineal champion when he fought Klitschko.

To be considered the lineal champion a boxer has to beat the champion or if the champ retires, become the undisputed or universally recognized champion. No heavyweight has done that since Lewis retired.--Jahalive (talk) 07:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you David-golota (talk) 16:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

To make this clear, the new policy is 100% pointless. Vic Darchinyan (then #3 Super Flyweight) won't be awarded The Ring title now for beating Christian Mijares (then #1 Super Flyweight). It's a pointless note.

Wlad and Vitali are the #1 and #2 heavyweights now. But they weren't always. Vitali and Sanders were the top two when VItali won the lineal/ring title. Wladimir and Chagaev were the #1 and #2. It's not fair your way. It makes it impossible for someone to win the title if it's already vacated. Why should Taylor, Pavlik and Martinez get something Hopkins couldn't? It was vacant, like a real title. Actually, there haven't been any lineal champions, by your definition, since Jeffries, who retired as champion. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 22:49, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

NO! Sanders was never No. 2. Never. He bear Wladimir? So what? Lewis was still around when that happened. I know you are a Klitschko fan. But I gotta stop you. You have done alot of great things for the articles. But in this case. You are wrong. And Chagaev was never ever No. 2. Vitali was above him. Chagaev only beat Valuev, and he was never a top 3 HW.

BTW. Yes the Lineal title is vacant. But if Vitali fight Wladimir, then the winners gets the title. Simple as that. That is the bad thing about having two champions that dont fight each other. If Vitali fights Wladimir, then the winner will be the Lineal Champion. If not. Then we have no Lineal Champion.

Charr September 2012 fight not confirmed

http://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/157687.html 92.7.108.101 (talk) 18:28, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Klitschko vs. Lewis

The material added to this section on Sept. 21 had been tagged in May as requiring a citation and was subsequently removed. Citations for some of the material has been added, but they are videos with German commentary. To use these to support the content that was questioned, please provide a transcription of the relevant portion of the commentary and a translation.

Please don't reinsert the unreferenced material without a citation.--Jahalive (talk) 08:09, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Vitaliy Volodymyrovych Klychko

Page was just moved from the common use englisn form of 'vitali klitschko' to Vitaliy Volodymyrovych Klychko per his party's website. Both are correct translits, but the former is the common use, and we use the common use. also, there's no point to using the middle name here.

can we can an admin to move this page back or some other comments here? this seems a bit too bold of a move at this point to do without consensus --Львівське (говорити) 21:29, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

The move is ridiculous indeed. The common English name should by all means prevail over the "official" "Ukrenglish" use. I've posted a request on an admin's talk page. --Garik 11 (talk) 22:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

even official ukrainian would be "vitalii", sometimes these things just get ran through google translate. vitaliy is the common use english for his first name, just not for HIS first name.--Львівське (говорити) 22:32, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I think in his case, the common English name has been adopted from the transliterated name/surname his German management chose at some point, so there we have it. --Garik 11 (talk) 22:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Bulgarian has "official" transliteration rules, stated by law, Ukrainian has not (or did this change recently?). Thus we use the transliteration that dominates the English-speaking literature, even if it is utterly "incorrect". For example, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. Materialscientist (talk) 22:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there is an official transliteration guide, here. There is the original National guide, and then the updated 2010 version. Irregardless, he's cemented in the English speaking world under the German-from-Russian variant, which isn't a problem. Just use the official translit / translit used in his political career in parenthesis until one day if/when it surpasses his boxing one.--Львівське (говорити) 23:21, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Guides are not good enough, unless they are official documents issued by the government (is this the case?). Even then, WP:COMMONNAME might prevail. Materialscientist (talk) 23:25, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they are official, passed by parliament. That said, yes, common name is absolutely what we go by. Even the Kyiv Post, who almost always make it a point to spell names in proper Ukrainian translits, use Vitali Klitschko--Львівське (говорити) 07:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Should this be included into the article or is it useless trivia?

Should this be included into the article or is it useless trivia(?): Klitschko said that boxing had greatly helped prepare him for this politics due to the strategy, work, discipline, dedication honesty and team work ethics, which are essential to be successful. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 18:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

No. Lazy PRfolk writing that for him should provide proofs that such personality traits are even relevant to the current Politics of Ukraine first. All the media coverage suggests utterly opposite( Ukrained2012 (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Two questions

Firstly, why the article's sec structure is so upside-downed towards sports? Every each bio article should start with early life. I'm reluctant to either tag or to develop.

Secondly, why do people keep purging common-knowledge information on the brothers' Jewish ancestry? Rephrasing a Soviet anecdote, one can get boxed on their face, not on their ~~passport~~ Wikipedia article, IUKWIM) Ukrained2012 (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Is Victoria Nuland's secretly recorded opinion relevant to this article?

Can anyone state a reason, especially one based on relevance, why Victoria Nuland's secretly recorded conversation with the U.S. ambassador belongs in THIS article? Many or most have an opinion. How is hers any more important? F/ex., does anyone have evidence that she controls or influences this subject or his past or future? I propose deleting that info as completely irrelevant unless someone has valid source material that makes it matter in some way to THIS subject. Paavo273 (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

If a person representing the USA (Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt) make statements about what should and should not be happening in someone else's country and who should and should not move into a leadership position in that country, while at the same time other countries accuse the USA of Meddling, then it is relevant. Nuland Raises Klitsch and what he should and should not do. USA is accused by other states of meddling. That makes her statements 100% relevant. Even more so when she stated Klitsch should NOT go into government and then he didn't? The USA has a track record of "installing" regimes in other countries by their design and "removing" others. Why on earth would you argue this irrelevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.236.133.101 (talk) 20:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Rel changing the nature and placement of VK's German award

1. Item does not belong in personal life regardless. This is a government or at least nationally awarded honor. A new category heading could be created if necessary. 2. The German-language source that was substituted in in place of the English-language source is problematic on two grounds: (a) English sources are preferred in English Wikipedia. Next, the German source says nothing about the level of the award relative to other German awards. As such a source needs to be found to establish that assertion of the fellow editor or it is simply the original research of the editor. It is never appropriate to use OR, especially if an RS can be found. It is even less acceptable to substitute your own OR for an RS. Paavo273 (talk) 07:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

The Personal life section covers that he has lived in Germany for several years and his UNESCO engagement. That sounded like an appropriate place to me, but since you don't consider it appropriate there I've removed it from there.
A non-German source making an obciously incorrect claim highest civilian award is not a RS about German awards. The German source names the exact award he got, and Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany tells the rest. Everyone in Germany is aware of the level of the Bundesverdienstkreuz (that has been given to around a quarter million people so far), so a German source won't discuss that it is not the highest level. Please bring a RS that he got the Grand Cross special class, or accept the fact (backed by a RS) that he did not get the highest civilian award - which is also highlighted by the fact that all sources agree that the person giving the award to him was only the German ambassador and not a member of the German government.

Bundesverdienstkreuz (talk) 16:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I have now demonstrated my GF by following your suggestion by creating a separate Awards section and moving it there. Please show your GF by not doing reverts without discussing the issue here first. Bundesverdienstkreuz (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

On a related note, I am surprised why you spend so much time defending the clearly incorrect claim highest civilian award, but don't even seem to notice that the lead section does not mention his role in Euromaiden at all. If you want to give him proper credit for something he did this would be more appropriate. Bundesverdienstkreuz (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello User:Bundesverdienstkreuz, I don't think I ever questioned your GF. What you've done now is a big improvement over the OR of previous edits, i.e., not blanking the info altogether NOR making an assertion as to the nature of the award lacking a source to back it up. I'm willing to allow that what you say about the award MAY BE correct. However, the ISSUE is you still need a valid source to rebut the English-language RS that says it's the highest civilian award or whatever.

As it stands now, you've created a new section, but it's buried at the bottom of the article based on your "knowledge" that it's insignificant and the significance stated by the English-language RS has been removed. That's still an issue with OR. EVEN IF all 80 some odd million people in Germany know better. (Presumably, based on that, you'd get no objection if this were de.WP.) I won't revert for now, but could you please find some source, including if necessary a German language source, that states its significance or at least that 250K people received it or whatever? (If you do, I'd be willing to let the matter drop on the not-WP-approved theory that a valid German-language source originating in Germany might well know better about a German award than a Ukrainian or other source.)

The point is citing sources is one of the cornerstone requirements of all WP editing, well at least English Wikipedia, which was the original one. And what is obvious to you or even 80 million Germans is not really the issue. Of course, if no one noticed your edits, it wouldn't be an issue PRACTICALLY.

Rel the political info, I tend to agree with you. There seems to be a huge bias among a lot of editors towards forward chronological order, regardless of relative significance. Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 03:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The German RS in the article states what award he got (Bundesverdienstkreuz am Bande). Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany has good RS for the different awards and their order. Bundesverdienstkreuz2 (talk) 16:32, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

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[1] ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkg1pK5n_FI

[2] ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWrNGUeW2i8

[3] ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5gMMeOz_dg

[4] ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/19/dereck-chisora-vitali-klitschko

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