Talk:WNYO (FM)

The Golden Pitcher

In order for this section to be added you must cite reliable sources. I'm a student there is not a reliable source. --_pete 21:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am a former sports director at WTOP. I received a call this morning from my friend explaining this entire situation. There is an annual flag football game between the two stations, and sometimes softball or basketball. His wording is obviously biased and I would suggest that be cleaned up. Look at my history as a wiki user. I feel I am a verifiable member. Please send me a message if you have any questions. -Airtuna08 (talk) 19:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

See guidance on original research such as this. Toddst1 (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

From what I gather, reliable sources are not available. But that's not the primary reason the section was repeatedly removed. FWIW, if the addition consisted of neutrally worded info, I would look the other way as far as sources are concerned, and I'm confident that most Wikipedians would. Something along the lines of "There is an annual flag football game between the two stations, and sometimes softball or basketball." might just be the right thing to start from. User:Dorftrottel 19:39, February 5, 2008

Another problem concerns due weight. The info regarding the sports rivalry is a minor aspect unless someone can come up with a reliable, third-party source to document that it is indeed notable in its own right to any degree. So my suggestion is to not overstate the importance of the sports rivalry in the context of the article, regardless of how important it is to the participants themselves. Simply mentioning the rivalry with one sentence as above is probably the safest bet for now. User:Dorftrottel 19:54, February 5, 2008

I'm working on getting a history of the rivalry put together by the WNYO sports director. But yeah, a one-liner in the main section for now works. -FancyMustard (talk) 19:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

WNYO Sports also competes in an annual flag football game for the "golden pitcher" with on-campus television station, WTOP 10. Can you or I add that for now after the last sentence of the main section? -FancyMustard (talk) 19:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If it lacks reliable, third-party external sources, it will be deleted again. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a very controversial piece of information. Personally, I would let it slide even if it has no reliable third-party source. User:Dorftrottel 20:05, February 5, 2008

I'm working with Dorftrottel on this. It has a source. Please let us deal with it. I'm sick of people who are unfamiliar with the situation chiming in. -FancyMustard (talk) 20:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Mustard informed me of your debate, and I am a former student from the class of 1999. I received an email from the WNYO sports director and his text includes...

James-

Thanks for the e-mail, for listening to our broadcasts, and for reading the blog. The Golden Pitcher is still around and in possession of WNYO here in the Hewitt Union office. WTOP managed to win the pitcher in Fall ’06 in football, but WNYO won it back in the spring softball game (14-13), and then retained it in the Fall ’07 football game (28-21) after falling behind 14-0. I think a story about the history of the pitcher is a great idea. The only problem is that I’m not sure when the pitcher was first introduced. I’m going to start asking around to see if I can find out more about it. Thanks again, go Lakers!

Ryan Maloney

P.S. Below is a picture of the pitcher in its current state as well as all of the game results that I was able to read off of it.

THE GOLDEN PITCHER

FOOTBALL

F98: RECORDS LOST

F99: RECORDS LOST

F00: WNYO 70-21

F01: WNYO 74-14

F02: WNYO 18-12

F03: WNYO 32-6

F04: WNYO 66-57

F06: WTOP 28-21

F07: WNYO 28-21

BASKETBALL

F97: WTOP 47-27

S98: WTOP 70-52

F01: WNYO 77-41

F02: WNYO 70-48

S04: WTOP 84-71

SOFTBALL

S98: WTOP 8-7 (10 innings)

S07: WNYO 14-13

If anyone wants the actual email to check to see everything he wrote I posted please let me know. -SlipperyPete411 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

First off, thank you for your efforts. However, the fact aside that nobody actually doubts the reality of the rivalry, and as per my above reasoning, I'm afraid the addition of the e-mail as a source would not be compatible with our policies, in particular Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Please believe me, I hate to play the policy-wonk here. I'm mostly trying to find and apply viable reasoning so as to avoid further inadvertent run-ins like yesterday's. User:Dorftrottel 17:57, February 6, 2008

If anything, it should keep everyone off my back and allow the one-liner to be kept in the article. I was reviewing the primary source page and it says photos are considered acceptable primary sources. So I hope the picture of the pitcher (say that five-times fast) gives something along with non-binding sources like an email and a youtube video. -FancyMustard (talk) 18:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is just the idea I was hoping you had in mind. I agree that it provides sufficient background for the assertion regarding the rivalry. User:Dorftrottel 10:43, February 7, 2008

Point this out

FancyMustard, The one liner is fine with me (especially after all that happened). You have to understand that wikipedia has policies that many of us abide by and others do not. That is why there are so many errors on wikipedia. As soon as we fix one error 10 or more are added by vandals, users that do not know how to contribute properly, even when policies are pointed out to them. I just want to point something out to you from the founder of wikipedia (Jimmy Wales), see this Wikipedia:Verifiability#Further reading Click here to jump directly to it. It really does apply to this situation. I am glad that Dorftrottel was able to help and calm the situation down. I did not mean to be harsh with you. I could see that you were trying but you were not reading the rules. That is why I put the Welcome message on your talk page. --_pete 20:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry for the problem. I understand vandalism is a big problem. But I hope I've given enough information to prove my points. Even if it isn't scholarly or what exactly you are looking for it does prove my postings. -FancyMustard (talk) 00:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Nomination of deletion not

In response to OrangeMike's nomination of deletion of this article. WNYO is listed among the radio stations in the Syracuse/Oswego market. http://www.cnymedia.com/transmitters.cfm?&Band=FM&Market=Oswego -FancyMustard (talk) 19:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

That was not a nomination of deletion by OrangeMike, that was a message alerting that the article needs improvement to establish it self as being noteworthy on wikipedia. --_pete 20:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

--_pete 20:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Have added three credible sources. Hopefully you all will agree and this is not contraversal information or something that should get us all in a tizzie. I think it looks good, and you have to take notice of my effort.

1.) CNY Media of Syracuse, Oswego, Utica and Watertown markets. WNYO obviously is listed and therefore is recognized by the FCC as well. If they recognize us, I think Wiki can too.

2.) WNYO Homepage showing online link to worldwide listeners.

3.) Video from WTOP-10 Newscast posted by user WNYOSports. I know its on YouTube, but look beyond that and take each video for what its worth, and this one has alot of proof behind it.
 ::-FancyMustard (talk) 23:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

A bit of Googling turned up the following:

• SUNY Oswego Student Association: "Bill #31 - WNYO Three Year Plan (19 October 1994)" (PDF). / html link (page 2)
• SUNY Oswego Student Association: "Resolution #3 (14 April 1993)" (PDF). / html link (page 3)
• oswego.edu majors list: Broadcasting-Mass Communications
• oswego.edu communication studies » facilities: Department of Communication Studies
• http://www.oswego.edu/nbs/ (there is no article on the National Broadcasting Society yet [1])

User:Dorftrottel 11:30, February 7, 2008

Nobody is denying that the station exists; what bothers me is the question of whether every little 50-100 watt college station is notable enough for its own article. It's pretty obvious that FancyMustard has a COI here, and is not really the best judge of this. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

One —admittedly weak— argument is our glorious collection of ~5000+ Star Wars articles, and other poems. Notability is such a contentious issue right now that I personally wouldn't want to make that call. However, I personally prefer inclusion of real-world facts, and deletion of any attempts at mirroring fictional universes. As long as we can't even rid ourselves of that unencyclopedic elephant over there in the fiction-fanboy corner, we shouldn't be too demanding of real-world topics as far as notability goes. As I said, it's a rather weak rationale, but it's my own. User:Dorftrottel 16:25, February 7, 2008

The canonical WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS example is the detailed lists of the characteristics of every Pokemon known to otakukind; but it should be noted that OTHERCRAPEXISTS is specifically listed as not a valid argument.

Please be aware, I'm not hating on WNYO or anything; my concern is the broader question of whether stations such as this qualify as notable. I've already formally raised the question on the relevant policy discussion page.--Orange Mike | Talk 16:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mike, Othercrapexists is not a valid argument, its like a steroid user saying everyone does it. But WNYO-FM is REAL (and broadcasts worldwide via www.wnyo.org) unlike those hundreds of Star Wars and Pokemon sites. I think you are way off here deeming WNYO meaningless. Ask Northern NY how meaningless it is when they want to listen to Oswego Lakers Hockey that won the D-III National Championship last year. There are plenty of sites that could demand your attention. WNYO-FM's existance on Wikipedia does not hinder Wiki one bit. In fact it adds to it because WNYO is a officially licensed station recognized by the FCC and the CNY Media Guide. -FancyMustard (talk) 17:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The FCC!!!! recognizes WNYO-FM. So what right is it of wikipedia's not too? How do I have a conflict of interest here? I have given you every thing necessary for a good site!
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?list=0&facid=63122 -FancyMustard (talk) 15:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And further more I am not the main contributor here. I just wanted to add one section. Its been re-done to become neutral. Conflict of interest? Because I'm writing about something I know? I'm sure anything you write about I would hope you have some interest in it before getting sources or not. What do you specialize in Orange Mike? Do you have hobbies? This is getting a little too ridiculous now. I expect the WP:Whining to be thrown my way next.-FancyMustard (talk) 15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

COI, or Conflict of interest is another Wikipedia policy. User:Dorftrottel 16:25, February 7, 2008

COI

A Wikipedia conflict of interest (COI) is an incompatibility between the aim of Wikipedia, which is to produce a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia free from original research, and the aims of an individual editor. Originally I added a non-neutral comment. I recognize that, it is gone and now the article is properly cited with FOUR different third party sources. There is no original research outside of what is common knowledge (i.e. Oswego is in New York State).

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for advertising or self-promotion, or a vanity press. I am not promoting myself, my name isn't even in the article. We are not using this as a self-promotion on a whole either. WNYO page was here long before I came along to edit. I didn't create http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:New_York_college_radio ,so obviously someone deemed that college radio stations in NY state be listed on wikipedia.

Citing oneself - Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest. Using material you yourself have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is notable and conforms to the content policies. Excessive self-citation is strongly discouraged. When in doubt, defer to the community's opinion. This article does not have excessive self-citation. In fact, I don't think it has anything left that hasn't been cited with a hyperlink or reference at the bottom of the page. Everything is in the FCC listing, CNY Media report or on the WNYO homepage. Plus, myself editing in an area I have academic expertise is not a COI.

Non-controversial edits -Editors who may have a conflict of interest are allowed to make certain kinds of non-controversial edits, such as 1.) Removing spam and reverting vandalism. 2.) Deleting content that violates Wikipedia's biography of living persons policy. 3.) Fixing spelling and grammar errors. 4.) Reverting or removing their own COI edits. Cleaning up your own mess is allowed and encouraged. 5.) Making edits that have been agreed to on the talk page. To determine what is controversial, use common sense. If another good faith editor objects, then it's controversial. Nothing in this article is controversial! And if anyone thinks it is then you need to let it go because you really have no reason to think it is. WNYO broadcasts sports live. Oh that offends me! Come on! You see my point!?! And #4 on that list I fixed. I cleaned up my own mess with my original non-neutral wording.

So please explain to me the basis of your argument other than the fact I am writing about something I have an academic expertise in. Which by the WP: link says is NOT grounds for COI!!! -FancyMustard (talk) 16:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No need to feel offended. Mentioning applicable policies and guidelines is usus around here. We're simply wary of people trying to promote their companies/organisations/etc. because it poses a frequent problem. That said, all edits can and will of course be judged only by their own merit, not according to who made them. User:Dorftrottel 17:21, February 7, 2008

Notability

I noticed that Orange Mike tagged the article for {{notability}} and the tag was removed. I think the tag is completely appropriate as notability has not been demonstrated or even asserted. The question is "is this a WP:Notable radio station or just a radio station?" If it's notable, why? Wikipedia:Not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_directory applies - including to 100 watt radio stations around the world. Toddst1 (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WNYO-FM is broadcast worldwide via www.wnyo.org. Also the home of the Oswego State Lakers Hockey (see bottom of page) which won the 2007 D-III National Championship. It may not be notable to you Todd, but its notable to 120,000 residents of Oswego County, New York and thousands of other alumni or fans of Laker hockey and other programming they can get on the web. -FancyMustard (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not if it's notable to me or not - rather, whether it's notable in general which I don't believe the article asserts. Wikipedia:Places of local interest may apply as well. Toddst1 (talk) 21:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

I have added notable alumni who were once members of WNYO. This section and its entries continue to get deleted. For Al Roker, he directly mentions WOCR in a tweet of his, this has been cited. Steve Levy's membership is mentioned in an Oswego State alumni magazine article. Linda Cohn's membership has been featured in an alumni reunion facebook group multiple times and is listed in the WOCR/WNYO history article that is being written by the alumni of that group. Many citations for WNYO's history are first-person accounts from the people who were there, as well as from old station logbooks and newspaper clippings that are not archived online. In addition, there are plenty of Wikipedia articles that list an organizations history and notable alumni without citing sources that have not received half the scrutiny that this article has. 129.3.128.77 (talk) 15:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Steve Levy and Al Roker appear to be fine (despite the Al Roker source being a tweet, but okay, I buy that he was a DJ at Oswego). The Linda Cohn reference is a facebook page, and in the wikipedia rules, it says "Facebook is generally not acceptable as a reliable source". I can't even access the facebook link anyway, so it's impossible to tell if Linda Cohn is even listed there. Even if she is, facebook pages apparently don't count as a "reliable source". SUNY osw98 (talk) 19:56, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

It is not up to you to decide what Al Roker did and did not do. Him being a member of WNYO is not something you need to "buy". It is an objective fact. "Facebook is generally not acceptable as a reliable source". Generally is the keyword here. The Facebook post, which I can access just fine, is a document of first-person accounts from WNYO Alumni. There are other records that exist of the history of WNYO as well as membership records, however, for much of this history, it is not archived online. Many of these sources are old newspaper clipping and station records that are not available online. If you can tell me how I should go about citing these items I would be more than happy to cite them instead of the WNYO alumni Facebook page. I again reiterate that many other organizations, who have notable alumni and history sections on their Wikipedia articles do not so much as a source. WNYO is a small market college radio station and while scrutiny should be applied to every Wikipedia article, to hold the WNYO Wikipedia page to this degree of scrutiny is in my opinion outrageous. 129.3.128.61 (talk) 12:50, 13 September 2019 (UTC)