Talk:Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts

Exemption for those conscripted after 1943

"Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943 were exempted from the judgement owing to their conscription." This seems like an important sentence, but is very vague. Does it apply everywhere? or only certain countries? Is there a SPECIFIC DATE involved? Does "after 1943" mean beginning in January, 1944. Is there a reference?

Disputing this article's accuracy

This article is certainly wrong in many ways. Here's just two examples.

1. The British Free Corps had ~1500 members? Wikipedia's own page on the BFC says it had something like 57. Why, then, is the number inflated by a factor of almost 30 on this page? 2. There was an Irish brigade of the SS with 400 members? That seems fanciful at best, but it's wrong, without doubt, to include Irish volunteers under the United Kingdom bullet. Ireland is not part of the UK.

Did you check the relevant citations for the numbers issue? Ireland isn't part of the UK, but numerous ethnic Irish live in Northern Ireland, and the Irish of the Free State volunteered in the British Army during ww2, leading to ostracisation post war Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 21:51, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Finnish SS volunteers in Gross Born.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Use of Source Marc J. Rikmenspoel

@GeneralizationsAreBad:@Kierzek:@K.e.coffman:@Diannaa:@Beyond My Ken:@Nick-D:@Denniss:@Sbb:@Buidhe: - After reviewing the works of this recently cited author, Marc J. Rikmenspoel, I am a bit concerned that his work is not unlike the specious and unreliable scholarship from Chris Ailsby, Gordon Williamson, and Robin Lumsden. It does not really appear like academic work, but is popular history, some of which traverses the realm of glorification. Rikmenspoel has published previously under J.J. Fedorowicz, which as we all know, is not the most objective. Since I cannot be sure, I thought I would raise this matter with some of my fellow trusted subject matter experts for their take. Should we tag these as better source needed? As we all know, in 2006 historians Ronald Smelser and Edward J. Davies identified Fedorowicz among others, as leading publishers in war-romanticization literature and my take is that anyone who published under them deserves careful scrutiny. --Obenritter (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes absolutely. This article needs high quality sources. (t · c) buidhe 21:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I was trying to remember where I read that name and it came to me; he wrote a section/chapter in a book: "Slaughterhouse: The Handbook of the Eastern Front" (2004), which I bought and owned at one time for the parts/sections therein written by David Glantz. I only read the sections by Glantz and then got rid of the book. Otherwise, I do not know anything about Rikmenspoel or his work. But, I trust your judgment, Obenritter, and he should go if his work is like Williamson, Bishop, Goldsworthy and Lumden. Kierzek (talk) 21:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Buidhe:; it's such a generic popular history approach that I am suspicious of its academic integrity from the start. Tagging accordingly. @Kierzek: Yeah, I have a copy of that work as well, but I only purchased it because Glantz had also contributed to it. If anyone has the time or inclination to improve these refs once I tag them, by all means do your thing.--Obenritter (talk) 22:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Hold the presses, I just noted that the cited work by Marc J. Rikmenspoel in question, appears in the USHMM catalog. See: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/bib227016 Now I am rethinking this work as possibly legitimate. --Obenritter (talk) 23:14, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

USHMM also has books by David Irving [1] and Mark C. Yerger [2] Doesn't make them WP:RS. (t · c) buidhe 23:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is that Aberjona Press isn't considered a high quality publisher, so this probably isn't a RS. Nick-D (talk) 10:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe: - That I did not know, but that changes things for sure. @Nick-D:- My instincts were correct then.--Obenritter (talk) 15:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the USHMM library is giant. They have a lot of books that aren't found in other US libraries at all. I think they try to have a copy of anything even tangentially related to their area of focus. (t · c) buidhe 17:31, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Serbian volunteers

Hi @Obenritter I cannot find the content supporting the participation of Serbian volunteers within the Prinz Eugen Division, All I could find on the source provided (Gilbert 242-243) was: On October 1942 the division … was 92 percent Volksdeutsche, the remaining percentage coming from Reich Germans occupying senior or technical positions maybe you meant a different page or I could also have a different edition! would you mind double checking? thank you Aeengath (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, they were ethnic Germans living in Serbia that helped form the Prinz Eugen Division. So Serbian is misleading if not a misnomer in this case if one is thinking in terms of ethnicity. However, they would have still be counted among Serbians, as it stands, geographically speaking. Actually, many of the Waffen-SS volunteers were ethnically German but of varying nationalities. This raises the question, do such persons constitute Serbians? If we're thinking along racial lines like the Nazis would have...perhaps not, but in a modern context, people of varying ethnicity stemming from Canada but fighting abroad would be labeled Canadians, right? So what you are trying to say is that because these volunteers are of German ancestry, they're not from Serbia? Maybe this whole article should be scrapped if we're using their genetic lineage as indicators of nationality. Thoughts? --Obenritter (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Obenritter It is indeed a misnomer as they were Volksdeutsche from Serbia, they also came from Croatia, Hungary, and Romania. The multi-ethnic composition of Yugoslavia adds another layer of complexity to the discussion but according to the Yugoslav census of 1931, some 21.64 percent of the Bačka's population and 20.58 percent of the Western Banat's population were "German".[3]

I agree with you that in a modern context, individuals fighting abroad would be labeled based on their nationality, but the motives behind joining the Waffen-SS, are more complex due to the ideological and ethnic motivations behind volunteering. Aeengath (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC) edited Aeengath (talk) 12:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)