Talk:Waiting for a Train (Jimmie Rodgers song)/GA1

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 11:20, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have begun reviewing this article. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:20, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

A well-done article, but a few aspects need attention

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
See comments below about first sentence, 'cover' term
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
See comment below about chart position discrepancy
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
A few additional topics can be covered, see below
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Regarding the lede, in the first sentence, the song title needs to be in quotes and the 'for' should be lower case. And shouldn't it be "song written and recorded by ..."?

In terms of "Blue Yodel No. 4" being the -A (as stated in the infobox) and this being the -B of the record, that is true in terms of the -A and -B as printed on the record labels, but it may be worth mentioning somewhere that at the time there wasn't a strict focus on only promoting or playing the A-side ... it was more a case of a record release with two songs on it, which happened to be on opposite sides. I've looked through a bunch of ads that Victor ran for their releases in 1929, and while most of the time "Waiting for a Train" is listed second, sometimes it is listed first, such as in this one and in this one.

I really like the "Origins" section.

Regarding the "Recording" section, the text regarding the songwriting credit is a little confusing. The way it's worded – "but with the changes in the lyrics and music, Peer decided he would be able to copyright it" – it sounds like Peer was able to copyright it for himself, when he fact he copyrighted it only for Rodgers – and why not joint credit?

Something about the musical structure of a song is typical in GA articles. As Rodgers recorded it, what key is it in? What is the chord progression? How would the tempo be described? And the article text states that Rodgers could only play two chords on the guitar?? That sounds unlikely. In the Singing Brakeman film, he seems to be playing four or five chords (some of the fingerings are close to each other). Depending upon the key, the tabs I've seen on the web show C F D7 G7 C as the main sequence, with Fm and A7 added in at times. For that matter, does Rodgers play guitar on the recording, or are the guitar parts handled by the band he brought in?

GA articles also often discuss the performance history of a song. He played the song solo in concert during 1929, per this April 1929 review in the Lubback Morning Avalanche, and per the reviewer "he plays [guitar] as entertainingly as he sings". (That casts more doubt on the 'only plays two chords' thing.) But he also played it with a full band, per this December 1929 Chattagooga Times review, where this was one of most popular numbers before a large audience of happy fans, to the disgruntlement of the serious-minded reviewer. He was still performing it as one of his featured songs three years later, per this January 1932 Austin American review about entertaining Rotarians and insurance agents.

And I think something needs to be said about the arrangement – in really does reflect a jumble of styles coming together.

Regarding the "Legacy" section, I think the first paragraph, and the first half of the second paragraph, should be in their own section called "Reception" or something like that. Because they concern what took place in 1929, the year of the song's release. Then the "Legacy" section can begin with the jump to 1940, after Rodgers was gone.

Regarding the Singing Brakeman film, you might include this 2019 Rolling Stone appraisal, which calls it one of the first ever music videos. It also emphasizes the importance that train imagery would have in country music.

Regarding the Great Depression meaning of this song, it might be useful adding that Dave Marsh has said that in The Rolling Stone Album Guide that "it was Rodgers – far more than Woody Guthrie –who was the true voice of the Depression" (Random House/Rolling Stone Press, 1979, p 327).

Regarding the term 'cover', I know that nowadays it's used to mean anything that an artist didn't write or introduce themselves. But it used to have much more specific meaning, that of deliberately introducing another recording of a potential hit that was intended to capture the audience away from the original recording and artist. Given the time period of this article, I think that original meaning should be used here. So while the 1929 recordings by West, Puckett, and Autry may properly be described as covering Rodgers (to limited or no no success), the recordings in 1940 and after are surely not, and words like 'recorded', 'performed', 'interpreted', 'remade', etc would be more appropriate.

And regarding those later versions, how did those singers approach the train whistle sounds at the start and the yodeling at the end? Did they try to emulate them, or replace them with some other effect, or just ignore them?

The Jerry Lee Lewis version chart position is given as number 11 in the text but number 13 in the box. And since it was something of a hit, his version deserves a little more description of what it sounded like. Such as the piano framing, the pedal steel, the yodeling.

"Waiting for a Train" was the B-side of Jim Reeves' 1957 country number 3 hit "Am I Losing You", and some snippet sources seem to indicate that it was considered part of its chart ranking, but I don't have any definitive. Might be worth double-checking.

As another aspect of legacy, you could mention the song being used as the title of the volume Waiting for a Train: Jimmie Rodgers's America, eds. Mary Davis and Warren Zanes (Rounder Books, 2009).

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: As a starting comment I want to thank you for taking up the review, and offering such insightful points that didn't even cross my mind (I have also a subscription to Newspapers.com through Wikipedia, saw those reviews but completely ignored their value).

Now straight to business

I added a paragraph to the release explaining how records were promoted back then as requested.
I clarified that with the copyright and added an extra citation for the writing credit.
There's now a bit more of information about the music and style of the recording. I could not find nothing regarding the chord progression, but I think the information that I added now should be sufficient. About the story with the two chords, I pulled that out of an interview with Ralph Peer, in which he reminisced that it was all that Jimmie could play. I obviously did not bother to pay attention while watching The Singing Brakeman which chords he was using. Anyway, I found another source that states that he could play "a few chords", which is fair compared to just "two".
There's now a short paragraph detailing the re-dubbing of the record for the following pressings after the sound engineers found an issue with the original.
I did those changes to the section regarding the Reception, and added those reviews. With the negative review, I just chose to use the reception of the crowd instead. I'm not attempting to portray only the positive in a biased way while describing Rodgers, but I rather follow what the other reviews offered (none of them really had any negative commentary) and the fact that this particular reviewer did not seem to clarify what really bothered him. Want to work that into the article somehow?

I'll get down to work around the renditions of the song shortly!--GDuwenTell me! 21:27, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: I added the information I could find about the later versions regarding the inclusion of the whistle sound, as well as yodeling. I couldn't find any source discussing the music arrangements of the Lewis cover, but indeed some info about him playing it during his childhood and replicating Rodgers' yodeling. I did not find any sort of chart performance for the Reeves single (just some book source that didn't seem right), but included mentions about the single and later album addition.

Other than that, I added also something I found earlier today about the amount of takes the Rodgers recording took, and the pick for the master. I suppose the article is ready now for a second look.--GDuwenTell me! 20:30, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@GDuwen: Okay, it's definitely an improved article now. Thanks for the kind words about the review, and you've gone beyond those suggestions to add some additional interesting points. I've made a few wording/MoS fix-ups to the article directly, as it's quicker than listing them here, hopefully you're okay with them. A few remaining points:

Re "and became Rodgers' second-best-selling recording", readers will naturally want to know what his best seller was. Re the "Before the 1930s, the songs contained in a record ..." explanation, it is good, but it's kind of a long digression (and yes I know I was the one who suggested addressing this). Maybe it could be simplified by dropping the "By the end of the decade, ..." sentence? Re "he advised Autry to find better material", was the point to find better material, or rather material that was different in sound and that Autry could put his own style onto? Re the structure of the "Legacy" section, to me it would be better as a top-level one rather than being inside "Reception", but it's your call in the end. Re the George Harrison mention, I still think that adding that his father owning the record would be useful, as it illustrates how widely it sold. Finally, now that the article is longer, the lede seems a little skimpy to me; maybe you could add a little more to it? Wasted Time R (talk) 11:30, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: Well, I added the mention to "Blue Yodel No. 1" being his best-selling song. A project I definitely going to take on sometime in the future, since I realized it does not have its own article. Anyway, I have to agree that the "end of the decade" sentence was a bit of a segue that was not really leading us back to our main topic in a "comfortable" way for the reader. About Autry, well, I think that is open to interpretation. The source noted that his manager just told him to drop the Rodgers covers, since he was kind of becoming an imitator of him rather than an artist with his own style (if you hear the recordings, you can feel how close he was imitating him). Added the mention to Harrison's father, and reworked the lead.--GDuwenTell me! 18:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An additional question: do you think I would be able to add this image to the article with the same license as this file? I've seen someone really nominated the article of that singer featuring a publicity page. If I could add the one for this song, it would be pretty nice. It may work for an ad from the 30s, but not really sure...--GDuwenTell me! 19:10, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@GDuwen: Okay, we're done, I'm marking this article as passed, good work. As for the image question, I'm the wrong person to ask – I've seen images that I thought should be allowed thrown out, and images that I thought were not allowable blessed as good to use. So clearly I don't have a handle on this ... I do agree that that would be a neat picture to add here. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Wasted Time R: Regarding the picture, after reading the information provided by the source on the licensing box listing the criteria, everything points to the fact of it being a free image. I went ahead and uploaded it. Other than that, I want to thank you again for your work. It was nice working with you, and I think it added a lot of value to this article.--GDuwenTell me! 17:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.