Talk:White horses in mythology

Amazed

How the heck did you pull this together so quickly, just from my throw-away remark on the refdesk? I am amazed! BrainyBabe (talk) 22:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Mostly pulled together from the rest of the wiki :) - thanks for bringing up the need. Cheers, WikiJedits (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Class

Gave it start class and importance but maybe should be higher than that, like a "C". Julia Rossi (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Genetics

Maybe it should be noted that while true white horses are rare genetically and what is considered white in legends varies from that, I don't see much connection when a myth or sacrificial custom specifies white or pale horses – the myth of whiteness would seem to trump genetics in a topic like this. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Horse people care deeply about the white/gray issue, it's one of those big inform the public things. True white is extremely rare, but what is also fascinating is that DNA testing suggests that every gray horse in the world descends from a single indvididual that lived somewhere back in antiquity (can't find the source right now, can dig it up if it matters). Hence, the deliberate selective breeding of grays may also have been a route by which "white" horses were obtained for various cultural purposes. Also one reason white is so rare is that when homozygous, many forms are actually lethal and the foals die in the womb or shortly after birth. (And true albinism doesn't exist in horses for the same reason) Anyway, how you want to work that in is up to you guys, but I think it is worth mentioning somewhere in the context of live horses used by various cultures for whatever ceremonial purposes, as more often such horses would have been gray than "white." Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that; it definitely makes it easier to research and source the mythological horses. Cheers, WikiJedits (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Only saw this after I posted @ WikiJedits – I guess what I was getting at was, since myth is at work the paleness and as you say, rarity, makes the colour signify something more than natural. It wasn't meant to dilute the white/gray issue per se. You made a good point that the selective breeding thing was driven by something back there – maybe even religious/ceremonial market forces – thanks for explaining, it makes more sense... Julia Rossi (talk) 10:09, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to drop me a line on my talk page if you need any source material on the genetics stuff. Myself and another WikiProject Equine participant, User:Countercanter, have been spending gobs of time on the horse coat color articles and have a lot of reference material, some of which is actually in the relevant articles, though the genetics of white are unbelievably complicated, as there appear to be several different mechanisms by which a horse can wind up solid (or near-solid) white and we may wind up having to rewrite the whole article if we ever get our ducks in a row. See also Lethal white syndrome if you dig the gene stuff, and I think the source on the single gray individual might be footnoted in Gray (horse), or at least if it isn't, it should be. Montanabw^(talk) 00:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If at all helpful, this might be useful to you. I've pretty much just swiped the material from the Gray (horse) and White (horse) articles, with footnotes. Feel free to tweak wording, or use/not use as you wish. The gray stuff reflects very recent research, the white material is a bit oversimplified and a little out of date-- we are thinking about a rewrite of the article, but the problem is that there are about five mechanisms that potentially white, and while most appear to be spinoffs from the KIT gene, not all are fully understood what follows is sort of a "Cliff's Notes" version. If you have any interest in this stuff, the talk page of the White (horse) article is where the stuff is being discussed. Montanabw^(talk) 04:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

• Genetics of gray horses: In 2008, researchers at Uppsala University in Sweden identified the genetic mutation that governs the graying process. The study also revealed that gray horses carry an identical mutation that can be traced back to a common ancestor that lived thousands of years ago. The discovery that gray can be linked to a single animal provides an example of how humans have "cherry-picked" attractive mutations in domestic animals.

• Genetics of white horses: The "W" gene is neither a dilution gene nor a graying gene. It is a dominant gene, and thus statistically, a heterozygous white horse (Ww) bred to a horse of any other color will produce white offspring 50% of the time. Further, all "true" white horses are heterozygous for the color. If a horse has two white genes (homozygous white or WW), it is generally considered a lethal gene and the ensuing foal will die in the womb. It is not known at present why this happens, but the end result is that there are no true albinos in the horse world. Another type of white horses may actually be a type of pinto horse whose white markings are "fully" or "maximally" expressed, meaning, essentially, that the entire horse is one big white spot. It is thought this can occur with the Sabino 1 gene (SB1). However, the sabino gene complex is not fully understood and some sabino horses that are over 90% white may have other genes involved.

Especially like the cherry-picked bit. I found this ref as an alternative to Encyclopedia Mythica (since Politizer on DYK nom page, questioned its status as a reference: http://www.khandro.net/animal_horse.htm. Filing it here for later. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Just as a heads up, I can second that Encyclopedia Mythica is not a reliable resource. The entry on Sleipnir, for one, is riddled with errors and outright inventions. :bloodofox: (talk) 08:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Simpler version?

Short version of long genetics story (which may be givbberish to people who are neither into horses or genetics?). What do you think of this? (Can plus in sources later when ready to leave here for article): Montanabw^(talk) 00:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• People have selectively bred horses with white coloring for millennia. (for whatever reasons, but probably some due to mythological significance, you guys may have to discuss and source the "why"). For example, DNA studies have revealed that all gray horses alive today descend from a single individual who lived thousands of years ago. Because gray is a dominant gene in horses, it is possible to produce gray horses with some predictability and consistency. (May explain that Gray horses are born dark but look white once their coats have grayed out all the way). On the other hand, "true white" horses, born white and with with blue eyes and pink skin, are much more difficult for humans to produce by selective breeding. Although the various genetic mechanisms which produce white horses are also dominant gene]s, when they are homozygous, most result in a foal that dies in the womb or shortly after birth. Therefore, breeding "true" white horses only allows a 50-50 chance that any mating involving a true white horse will produce a living, heterozygous white foal, plus any non-white foal produced does not carry the genes for white to any subsequent generation. Thus, true white is relatively rare in the equine world, while gray is relatively common. (Then go on to explain if anyone actually cared...?)

Thanks! As I know nothing about genetics, it's still a bit technical for me, though maybe the other contributors can weigh in on that aspect. If it were just me, I'd suggest turning the order around and taking out the genetic terms (though of course still linking through to main articles). Does something like this still convey the idea? WikiJedits (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• White-looking horses may be either "true white" (born with pink skin and a white haircoat), or gray (born with dark skin and dark coat but looking white because their coats have turned white gradually develop a white hair coat as they mature). True white horses are relatively rare in the equine world, while gray horses are relatively common.

• People have selectively bred horses to have white coloured coats with these two white colourings for millennia. (for whatever reasons, but probably some due to mythological significance, you guys may have to discuss and source the "why"). For example, DNA studies have revealed that all gray horses alive today descend from a single individual who lived thousands of years ago. Because gray is a dominant gene in horses, it is possible to produce gray horses with some predictability and consistency. On the other hand, true white horses are much more difficult for humans to produce by selective breeding. MostThe various genetic mechanisms which produce white horses interact to give only a 50-50 chance of producing a living white foal. In addition, a non-white foal produced from a true white horse does not carry the genes for true whitenesswhite colour to any subsequent generation.

The simpler the better. Good plain English explanation! Used strikeout and underline to tweak the above. Can't say all mechanisms that produce white from birth carry lethality when homozgous, because there is one (Sabino -SB 1) that doesn't. But it usually produces pink skin but dark eyes, and frequently the horse is spotted and not all white. Weird...and not relevant here, but just so's ya knows why I tweaked that language. Montanabw^(talk) 23:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

References

Relevance

With great respect for the information about dna whiteness of horses etc, I'm still finding it hard to connect that with the poet/legendary/visionary function of depicting mythical horses as white. From what I'm finding, "white" and the range of lightness/rarity or exquisite perfection evoked in stories, has to do with metaphors for the sun and life vs the dark side (danger eg, and emblems of death). Unfortunately I get that beyond what is in the article's introduction would put the article out of balance, much like putting it into a novel's article if it was called say, "White Horse of the Apocalypse". I will try to find something that introduces the mechanisms at work that featured visually white horses in real-time ceremonial or ritual roles, but that's as far as it goes, for me anyway. Others may have more to say, and WikiJedits seems to be onto something, though I think the reasons why living white horses make their way into myth is still an unanswered question, and a hindsight history; but I hope that what you have here will also develop your project article, because it's really good stuff. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Understood. I think I might have been the person who put that original tweak in the lead. If none of the genetics stuff goes in the article, that's fine. It's just parked here if anyone wants to do something with it at some point. Most of it is from the horse coat color articles already on wiki. My only concern for this article is that horse people spend a lot of time explaining to non-horse people that gray horses aren't quite the same as "white", even though probably a lot of "white" horses used by the ancients for cultural purposes related to religion were probably grays and it is pretty clear that people deliberately bred for gray (and white too, you just have better luck breeding for gray)...whether for cultural symbolism related to white horses or just because they looked cool, I don't know. The symbolism of the living white horse as the mount of kings and priests, etc. is kind of interesting. But no need to go too far afield if it doesn't fit. Montanabw^(talk) 04:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Montanabw, you are too gracious. Btw, it's a good part of the lead that opens the whole thing up. Thanks for understanding the dilemma. I think it's good to inform people that there's a difference – it expands the importance of the light coloured range, and emphasises the rarity of degrees of whiteness as well. (As yet, still hard to find refs for the connection.) As you say, maybe it's because they do look cool and stand out (Hey, there goes Suleiman! Where? That one, on the white steed, with the big white hat and all...)and just maybe, because they were expensive and kings could afford them. Now there's a thought. Thanks to you, I came across this pic (Image:Sueleymanname nahcevan.jpg) see Suleiman article, where every guy in a white turban is on the grey horse. If you do come across any link with this dna, purpose breeding and kings and priests, by any means, drop it in here. (PS: Sometimes my comments come across as statements but there's always a question in my voice so nothing's closed.) best, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope you think this stuff is as fun as I do! LOL! Some handy things to remember in the future: If a horse of a historical figure -- just like the one of Suleiman -- in a painting is all white-haired, but has black skin around muzzle, eyes, etc...you know you have a gray (to oversimplify, ...grays generally have dark skin under white hair, whites have pink skin under white hair.) Example:Image:Wilhelm I - Pferd.jpg. Second, if you want to throw in another monkey wrench on the range of whiteness, check out the horses at cremello and American Cream Draft (a cream-colored horse with blue eyes, can bleach out and look almost white...LOL!) Third, if the horse is claimed to be an Arabian horse and is also white, it is virtually certain to actually be a gray. Arabians don't come in white (there may be an occasional mutation, someone claims there are 11 "white" Arabians in the whole world today, and all are probably Sabino-whites.) Montanabw^(talk) 22:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep it's a great ride. Interesting that at the Arabian horse article, mythology section, the horse seems to be created from the landscape and other qualities than white are valued. It kinda points to white being an invention if not exactly the real thing and mostly symbolic. Fun, and... mind-boggling. :) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There are also some entertaining moments. Saw an article on a lady a while back who was busted for hoarding animals, specifically gray Arabians. Sad that they were starving due to her not having the money to feed them, happy that they did all find good homes, but the LOL relevant here was that her motive was that she wanted to be sure that if Jesus came again he'd have a white horse to ride! Montanabw^(talk) 21:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Awww, a poignant tale – does that mean in some weird roundabout way, that indeed, Jesus saves (horses)? (cheesy, I know) ;) Nice category btw, Julia Rossi (talk) 07:45, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

More possible myth info

If you haven't surfed there already, check out Category:Mythological horses. May find useful (if often unsourced) tidbits that could be helpful here. Also, Buddhism also has a good white/gray horse tale involving Siddhartha: see Kanthaka. May want to add next to the Hinduism section. FYI, anyway. Montanabw^(talk) 22:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Jewish tradition

Given that it's a white donkey and not a horse, is the reference really relevant to the article? Deerlike (talk) 09:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Hard to say, but I think there is a need for consensus. There appears to be no article on white donkeys in mythology, so putting the few references that appear in religion, myth and literature into this article as a separate subsection, given that donkeys and horses are both equines, is appropriate. (In the future, should there be enough material, perhaps a new article could be spun off from this one. Also, this is the ONLY reference specifically to the Jewish tradition, and thus it is probably good to include it to present a full worldwide view of significant beliefs. I don't know, but it is possible that it could also be viewed as anti-semitic to remove a reference to Jewish tradition. Montanabw^(talk) 18:00, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I should point out that this article is called "White horse (mythology)", not "White horses and donkeys (mythology)". It's not my intention to be harsh, but I have to say that it is absolutely absurd to reason that we should include mention of a white donkey here because "it is possible that it could also be viewed as anti-semitic to remove a reference to Jewish tradition."

Unless we have some solid, referenced commentary linking this donkey (which has apparently been theorized as having been thought to have been white, for whatever reason..) to this tradition, the reference needs to go. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:01, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

My take is that if the only reason to toss the piece is because it mentions a donkey and not a horse, that's hair-splitting given that we are talking mythology and not taxonomy, but on the other hand, if the material is inaccurate, then I agree with you and clearly it should go. I also think it is a good idea to be sure that we do touch on each cultural tradition we can find to keep the scope of the article as worldwide as possible. I think the thing to do here is to contact some of the editors who did most of the substantive work (I'm the horse geek, not the mythology geek) and see if they have something to add. I dropped a message to the two people who have previously weighed in on this article, feel free to invite other folks into mythology if you wish. There IS a footnote to the section, unfortunately it's in Hebrew. All i know on the topic is that the actual donkey Jesus rode into Jerusalem was not specified as a white one. As far as the Messiah arriving on a white critter of any sort, I recall news about a lady who collected gray horses en masse because she thought that way Jesus would have a "white" horse to ride when he returned (apparently to her house...).  :-P I believe the sheriff confiscated the entire herd because they were starving... =:-O. Anyway, I'm cool with letting this sit for a day or two to see if others have an opinion. Montanabw^(talk) 22:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Three days have passed and nothing has happened with the information. I've pulled the information until someone can justify its existence here. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I really don't see why all the refs to enc myth had to go too...I am sincerely interested in knowing why you do not deem it a suitable source. If the material is wrong, then of course, it needs to be replaced. If it is merely questioned, then I think it best to put on a simple "dubious" or "fact" tag but leave it in. That said, I also lack the time, energy or interest to fight about the issue, so as far as I am concerned, others can dive in if they care. Montanabw^(talk) 01:10, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

The source is known for peddling misinformation and presenting outright inventions as fact. As a result, it is not a reliable source by any stretch. If the information is correct, it needs a better source. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Understood. I don't like to see inaccurate material in wiki, obviously, but I sometimes hate to delete things that appear to be OK just because the sourcing is dicey. The Jewish tradition thing about the white donkey does pop up on the web often enough to at least be a mainstream misinterpretation of the verse in Zachariah, probably not good enough sources to keep, but oh well. Montanabw^(talk) 21:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Popular Culture References

Sorry - can't seem to respond to montanawb (?)'s undoing of my previous addition to the article elsewhere. . .

Not sure how such a well-known popular reference to the mythical/mystical image of a white horse could be "a stretch," but I've reinserted the reference to Ozzy Osbourne song "Mr. Crowley" to include a citation to the lyrics on the official Ozzy website, as well as hotlink to the subject of the song, Aleister Crowley. It should be noted that Crowley is still a very well-known occultist from the late 1800s/early 1900s and was voted one of the 100 most important Britons in a BBC poll in recent history. Yes, he was sort of a crackpot along the lines of L.Ron Hubbard, but he is revered by many who are into mysticism, magic, etc. The reference to Mr. Crowley riding a white horse is, IMO, a more significant popular reference than a few of the others included here. If the citation isn't sufficient to satisfy, rather than simply deleting my edit, might I suggest presenting some logical and well-founded reason that the reference doesn't belong here? Mikerrr (talk) 21:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I thought User:Ealdgyth's answer on my talk page was well stated and I am copying it here: "The best way to handle "cultural references" in articles is to require third party discussion of the connection of the reference to the actual subject of the article. Thus - say, for King Henry II of England - you have references to plays/literature that Henry appears as a character in, but they are referenced not to the original work but to other works that discuss the actual significance of Henry appearing as a character. This really cuts down on the "cruft" while still preserving important cultural influences. Thus - if it's important to Crowley's influence that he was depicted riding a white horse - there should be articles (not by Crowley) discussing that symbolism. And if Ozzy's usage of Crowley riding a white horse in one of Ozzy's songs is significant, it will be discussed in articles written about Ozzy's songs (and not written by Ozzy or his family). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:08, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

My own view is that every mention of a white horse is not inherently worth noting here in an article that is about mythology. Ozzy, though he has significant notability, probably has not been discussed in third party scholarly works, though if I am mistaken, do provided us references and we can reconsider. Montanabw^(talk) 00:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:White (horse) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:00, 3 November 2019 (UTC)