Talk:William Wilberforce/Archive 3

The main picture...

The main picture, the first one you see, makes him look like somewhat of a drunkard. Can we put switch the first and second portraits, just so he doesn't seem so inhumane? Thanks. 70.181.168.148 (talk) 02:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Tory??

Hi Agendum, You have been doing lots of great work! I have removed the 'nominally a Tory' thing, because it isn't in the Hague pages cited, and to be honest I haven't found anything of a similar nature elsewhere. Hague seems at pains point out his independence e.g. "He resolved within hours of his election to be 'no party man', indicating from the outset an absence of appetite for ministerial office and a detachment from the main political groupings which would resurface much more strongly in his later years." pp 36. And Tomkins p. 37 "Wilberforce did not join Pitt's government; instead he formed a club of about forty independent MPs,.." Do you have some other refs that say differently? --Slp1 (talk) 13:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have always been under the impression that he was a Tory, albeit a very independent one. Since you deleted the word yesterday I've had a quick look through my sources and can't find reference to it anywhere, so it may have just been my assumption. I restored the word (qualifying it by using "nominally") as a compromise. But if there's no evidence for him being a Tory then, by all means, let it stand as it is.

You've done a great deal of good work, yourself! – Cheers, Bruce Agendum (talk) 14:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. I will try to do a bit more today, but have many other mundane domestic tasks to accomplish too! --Slp1 (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Evangelical Christianity

Comment on the definition of 'evangelical'...the 18th C definition is not the same as the popular 21st C definition. From the American Heritage Dictionary, evangelical for Wilberforce would be the definition: "Of or relating to the group in the Church of England that stresses personal conversion and salvation by faith." The popular definition today, of course, is :"of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism" as the Encarta dictionary states. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 18:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting comment. I am not sure that the Encarta definition would be considered true in the UK, even today, but that is just my opinion. Worth thinking about further, I think. --Slp1 (talk) 19:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, westcoast – I would certainly recognise the former definition (from the American Heritage Dictionary) as being accurate here in Britain. I think we have many differing ideas between the UK/US regarding evangelicalism/fundamentalism. "Two countries divided by a common language," etc, etc! Cheers – Agendum (talk) 19:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It isn't just 'two countries divided ...' but 'two centuries divided ...'. There is nothing like the evolution of meanings to cause confusion! By the way, another possible source of confusion is "...underwent a conversion experience..." It is correct but, by analogy, his conversion was more of a Clinton supporter becoming and Obama supporter; rather than a Clinton supporter becoming a McCain supporter. The problem is best expressed by the Webster's Revised Unabridged, 1913 Edition which defines conversion as

• "The act of changing one's views or course, as in passing from one .... religion to another. Conversion to Christianity."

or

• "A spiritual and moral change attending a change of belief with conviction...

Wilberforce underwent the latter sort...but it might be misunderstood.

Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Evangelical is still reasonably well understood in its earlier sense in the UK, though the more fundamentalist version is perhaps gaining ground. As to the conversion experience, again the more modern version might be to "become a born-again Christian". David Underdown (talk) 08:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What is telling for me is that the words 'conversion' and 'evangelical' are used over and over again by the biographers and other reliable sources. I don't think we need to worry too much if we follow the sources in this matter. Slp1 (talk) 22:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough! Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Image size problem

There seems to be a Wiki-wide image size problem. The discussion is here:Wikipedia talk:ClickFix No doubt it will be fixed soon. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I'd figured out there was a widespread problem. I've now tried, as far as I am able, to correct the dimensions of the main image using the 'px' solution recommended, and with a few variations, but to no avail. I think, rather than us all having a go at putting things right, the best thing is to leave it as it is for now – especially as the article is up for GA review.

Unless there is someone there who really does know what they're doing and can correct the problem! Cheers – Agendum (talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Collaborative style

I'm not really sure what 'collaborative style' means in this context.... However, more importantly to the article, I wonder whether, between us, we could find a reference to support the sentence above: "Subsequent historians ..... have termed it one of history's great partnerships". I'll have a look later. – Agendum (talk) 12:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Hochschild is the reference for "one of history's great partnerships", and it is referenced at the end of the next sentence. I was a bit uncertain what to do with these sentences, because while only one person says the quote, Hague, Brogan (and others frankly) express the same thing in other ways (as well as the rest of the info in the paragraph). But I agree it looks a bit odd. I think I will venture over and do a spot of editing to clean it up to make it look better. Re: collaborative style... I think Hague means that he tended to negotiate with a bit of give and take in parliament.--Slp1 (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Correct style

I have tried adding a few semi-colons, where their use is correct. At the risk of being thought a little finicky, I thought this would enhance the article. Any thoughts? Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 19:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind semi-colons and I can hardly imagine you'd add them randomly and incorrectly. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you did. I used to think I was good at punctuation, but have developed a bit of a complex recently while trying to proofread this article. Not helped by the fact that I have been reading David Crystal's "The fight for English" which pooh-poohs the whole fixation on punctuation à la Lynne Truss' Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation. Clarity is the key and punctuation important to guide clarity, according to Crystal. I figure the article is pretty clear, but then I guess I would!!! --Slp1 (talk) 23:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll come clean. I don't use them nearly enough, or as much as I used to, having got used to the "punchy" style of advertising copywriting in recent years. However, today I read a fascinating article in the Guardian on this very subject – which you, as a French speaker, may also find interesting. See [1]. However, I'll see if I can find Crystal's book. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 00:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Mm, very interesting article. I agree that the semi-colon is neglected and your additions make for pleasing variety. I shall have to somehow learn to integrate it with my new Crystallian values !

I have my doubts about this sentence....(The work by R. and S. Wilberforce is thus regarded by historians as an unreliable source about many aspects of the anti-slave trade and abolitionist campaigns, especially regarding the respective roles of their father and Clarkson, and is referred to only when it can be confirmed by other sources). Is there a source for this? Is it necessary/relevant in the context? How about using it as a note to the reference to their book rather than in the text? Okay, less seriously and to come clean myself, I hate parentheses in a text... for all my talk about punctuation freedom, there are still things a body has difficulty tolerating!! --Slp1 (talk) 01:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Point taken about the Wilberforce work. I really wasn't happy about it being contained within the text myself, but consider that it's important to mention – so I've moved it as you suggested. Please remove/edit/reference as you see fit. Cheers – Bruce Agendum (talk) 07:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've checked my sources – and I believe it was Pollock or Hochschild that I was thinking about – and it isn't exactly what is said there. So I have deleted the note about the Wilberforce & Wilberforce biography until I can verify it accurately. – Agendum (talk) 23:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

GA congratulations

Congratulations on achieving GA. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 18:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ditto, added to the Anglican Portal. -- Secisek (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah!!! Well done all!--Slp1 (talk) 20:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Another congratulations - wonderful article for a hugely important man. Good work! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.244.202 (talk) 17:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Onwards to FA?

I don't know if anyone wants to take this article to FA, but I've enquired at the The FA-Team to see if they'd be interested in assisting. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 18:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! I'm in! I have few things I want to do myself, and then Sandygeorgia totally unprompted gave me some names of editors who might be willing to help us out, when the time came [2]. I will drop them a line in a day or two once I have done what I still plan to. I think a good going over by a copyeditor would help too. But that should be the last step, I would think! --Slp1 (talk) 20:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll put the article up for peer review then. It is a process not known to be speedy! Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

OK. Request has now been made. Please watchlist Wikipedia:Peer review/William Wilberforce/archive1 should any comment be made...but don't expect much as the process often does not generate much comment. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Let's go for it! Yes, SandyGeorgia has been very helpful with suggestions already. And thanks to you, Wassupwestcoast for all your help. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Peer review

The first peer review has arrived. See Wikipedia:Peer review/William Wilberforce/archive1. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

To do list

Let's make a list of things that need to be done, as we think of them. We can then indicate when they are done.

• Check images that they are up to snuff copyright etc
• Fix the slave ship poster so that we have a version that is not tilted. It drives me nuts. done
• Check Manual of Style for dates etc: done
• Make sure all the dashes are correct... I believe there is someone who has a bot for this.
• Finish responding to the Peer review suggestions
• Respond to the automated review suggestions. [3] done
• Add a section about Sierra Leone/Africa done
• Find sources for the Memorials section done
• Check for over and duplicate linking
• Check all the links to make sure they go to the right place

--Slp1 (talk) 13:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll be back on this ASAP – in a couple of days, if not before. Just got some other real-life stuff to do.... <yawn> Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, real life is way more important!--Slp1 (talk) 14:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Images

Thanks Agendum, for straightening out the slavery picture. It looks like you have skills in this domain which leads me to say to make the following comments about the pictures, because I am pretty hopeless at these things.

1. It would be really nice if the house where W was born was up near the text where he is being born
2. The picture of the column is not that good, is it? Would we be better to get rid of it?
3. The picture of memorial statue has so much surround that it is hard to focus on the subject, I find. I tried to fix it here [4], but I managed to include a great chunk of white space on the right, and am not sure how to get rid of it.
4. This picture on Commons is nice [5], and it would be nice to include it, I think.--Slp1 (talk) 22:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Will do. I agree about the column – I'll see if I can beg, borrow or steal another (on reflection, I'd better not steal it!) I hadn't seen the image by Thomas Lawrence - that would be a great one to include. I'll try and sort those out tomorrow. At the moment, though, my bed calls! Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 22:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Dors bien, Bruce.--Slp1 (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Slp1 – I've uploaded the image by Sir Thomas Lawrence, but I'm not sure what to do about moving the picture of his house. I'm reluctant to have two portraits which are quite similar (in composition terms) too close to each other on the page, without having something else between them.

Have a look at these photos. I may be able to ask one of the contributors there to allow us use of a picture of the monument - most people are quite amenable as long as they get a credit on the image page. There's also some at the similar page of photos (just substitute 'memorial' in the web address, instead of 'monument'). Please let me know what you think. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Goodness, they are all so different, I'm not sure. Unfortunately the close up ones don't really give much information visually and the far away ones (which at least give the idea of the column) are full of cars, buildings. I guess my favourites are these ones [6] [7] but I am open to other opinions. Here is another possibility I guess. [8] . And how about this one [9], which is the right period. Slp1 (talk) 15:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are struggling for an image then I will be in Hull over the bank holiday weekend, in a couple of weeks and may be able to get an image if you give me an idea of what you think will work best. Keith D (talk) 21:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I guess what would be ideal would be a picture of the column that gives some idea of height, while at the same time being able to make out that it is a human being up there, and without a background cluttered with cars, buildings etc. I suspect this is pretty much impossible. This one is nice [10] but I suspect you'd have to grow wings!! --Slp1 (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I would think that it will have to be from some distance to get all of column in, a close up of the top would be out of the question. The college building rather gets in the way at the back so may try from the side. Keith D (talk) 21:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I contributed the first photo, have quite a few more photos of the monument in my collection - but not hosted on the web at the moment. I would think the an interesting view could be had from inside Hull College. Does anyone know someone there? AFCR (talk) 11:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, Austen, and for the photos you've contributed. Sorry we had to lose the first one, but the consensus seemed to be that we needed something with a bit more impact. We've now replaced it, as you will have seen – I hope that's OK with you! But I'm sure we will bear in mind that you have other images available. Thanks! Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 12:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I have got some photos from my trip up to Hull, do not know if they are suitable for you. I have put them here for you to have a look, I can put them on commons if required. Keith D (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in responding. Busy, busy. Thanks so much, Keith. I like the first one best. It gives the idea of the height of it. Unless anybody objects, I would suggest that you add it to the article at the bottom somewhere. Thanks again, Keith!!! --Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added to the Memorials section. Keith D (talk) 09:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Tiny copyediting points

• the sentences for women convicted of treason which included the murder of a husband. Needs to be clearer, I think, but I am not familiar with the issue.

Fixed, I hope.--Slp1 (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• He wrote in his personal journal, "God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and the Reformation of Manners", 'manners' meaning 'morality' at the time. This seems rather clumsy, with that last bit tacked on. Why the single quote marks?

Trying bracketed words as is used in one source. [11] What do people think? --Slp1 (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• "Our religion is sublime, pure beneficent," he said, "theirs is mean, licentious and cruel", while at the same time criticising the British in India for their racial prejudice. Do the two parts of the speech run together in the original, or does something intervene? Any punctuation connecting the two should follow the "he said", whether a full stop or colon. If it was a comma, then no problem, but it would make a comma splice.

Thanks for the tip. It was a fullstop and I will change it. Thanks for the great copyediting help!--Slp1 (talk) 20:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

--qp10qp (talk) 23:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Wilberforce University

Is the reference to Wilberforce University really necessary in the article? It seems rather irrelevant, given that there are many schools/colleges named after him – and also that this college is actually named after the town in which it is located. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I like it myself, because of the fact that it was the first independent black college set up. I think that makes it notable, but perhaps there are others. All the sources, including the book used as a citation, says the college was named after him... I suspect, given the size of Wilberforce, Ohio, 1500 souls or so, what I know about American colleges and college towns, and the fact that it isn't even incorporated, that the community was actually named after the college.--Slp1 (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It's as I thought: [12] the community changed named only after the University arrived.. it was first called Tawawa Springs when the university was set up. --Slp1 (talk) 00:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Date?"

In the section 'Abolition of the Slave Trade', in the first paragraph it says, "What Ramsay had witnessed of the conditions of the slaves both at sea and on the plantations horrified him and, returning to England fifteen years later, he accepted the living of Teston, Kent in 1981" Did it mean to say 1981?Professor Davies (talk) 14:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

nope, 1781 is the right date. Funny how one's fingers do these things automatically. Someone's fixed it, but thanks for pointing it out all the same! --Slp1 (talk) 18:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Initial decision

On re-reading parts of Pollock's biography, it's come to my attention that I may have the chronology of events slightly wrong. I'll do my best to put this right later this evening. Cheers – Bruce Agendum (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Bruce. Do you have a citation for this sentence? "Although possessing a general interest, Wilberforce knew little of the slave trade and it seems that he did not, at that time, seem inclined to follow-up his meeting with Ramsay. They were to meet again a few years later." I know we are going to get asked for one!!! It also seems a bit discursive to me. --Slp1 (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup. This is all from p.17 of Pollock. I thought it might need editing, and was hoping that you might be able to turn your hand to that! We can certainly lose the last sentence, the rest can perhaps be more concise. The original para (from Pollock) reads: "Apart from once meeting Ramsay at dinner with the Edwards' [Gerard Edwards and his wife, Diana Middleton], when the conversation turned to negroes [meaning the slave trade], Wilberforce knew little about slaves or Evangelicals: he does not appear to have followed up the enquiries into slavery which he made during the Hull election, and he had long drifted from the Evangelical fervour which had characterized his uncle and aunt, William and Hannah." Cheers – Bruce Agendum (talk) 23:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for improving my prose, Slp1 – it reads much better now. The chronology of Wilberforce's meetings, etc was OK after all – it was just the one reference that was wrong. It may be worth adding somewhere the fact that Gerard Edwards was Middleton's son-in-law, although it's not vital to understanding events.

I think it's generally looking much better now. What do you think of the new image? As I said before, I wanted to get away from two very similar images next to one another, showing Wilberforce in an almost identical pose. I just need to get confirmation of the date and author of the pic. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 07:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Modern usage

Wassupwestcoast – thanks for your help with moving this article to GA and onward towards FA – it’s all much appreciated!

I would just take isssue with your insertion of commas after dates in the leading line of new paragraphs, eg, "In October 1784, Wilberforce embarked..." I have been taught that correct modern usage is to omit as many commas as possible, and especially when it’s separating two clauses – the sentence should flow without a pause.

I’ve searched through the MOS and can’t find a ruling there, so understand it may again be a matter of British/US usage. Would you be happy to revert these? Thanks again. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 11:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry! Those dratted commas. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The rule on commas is that, in indexing, they should separate page ranges or individual numbers – eg, "Pollock. pp.6, 26–7, 104–11, 252". Otherwise it can be confusing for the reader. Normal typographic usage is to keep lists of numbers as simple as possible and leave off any unnecessary figures, eg, "pp.308–9", not "pp.308–309". Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What about "In 2008, Clinton and Obama..." vs "In 2008 Clinton and Obama ..."? Which is acceptable practice? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I was always taught the comma represents a slight pause if you were speaking the sentence; and the semi-colon is a slightly longer pause – but not as long as a full-stop (full point). So, I would say that the correct version is "In 2008, Obama and Clinton...."

If, on the other hand, there are three or more items in the list, slightly different rules apply, depending upon the sense of the sentence. I would say "In 2008, McCain, Obama and Clinton...." – but others would place an additional comma before "and Clinton" – as there is scope for misunderstanding at times. But there seems to be definitive rule. Serial commas are explained here: [13]

Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 15:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Bruce, ROTFL! I think we are having a push me-pull you discussion - talking at cross-purposes – when we actually agree.. Look at your first comment to me above. I read

"I would just take issue with your insertion of commas after dates in the leading line of new paragraphs, e.g., "In October 1784, Wilberforce embarked...""

So, I took out all such commas. But, then you say

So, I would say that the correct version is "In 2008, Obama and Clinton...."

I'm no punctuation expert, and simply don't care enough about the topic :-) ....but, my understanding is the latter is preferred, to wit: "In 2008, something ..." Anyway, I'm not reverting anything. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Image again

Is the info box including picture enormous to everybody else too? What is going on here? --Slp1 (talk) 00:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It is GIGANTIC! Wait, and see if there is a bug. I bet there is and all will return to normal. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 00:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Glad I am not going mad! Will wait for the bubble to pop as you suggest! --Slp1 (talk) 00:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, oh - here we go again! And they're also querying my use of a photo for which I've got the author's permission, credited them and attached the correct licence.... Aaaagh! Bruce – Agendum (talk) 06:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

These image issues are frustrating and confusing to me. I had to fix one recently: all the needed information was there, but just not in the template so that a bot could read it, I guess. Annoying. Still, I think it would be worth while having the images (licenses etc) checked out by a guru of some sort. Would anybody be willing to find one and get them to check the images to make sure all is well? --Slp1 (talk) 12:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Elcobbola (talk · contribs · count) has the reputation of 'image guru' at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be helpful. Now that I'm back from Holland, I'll try and sort out the current image problem in the next couple of days, and possibly contact the 'guru'! Cheers – Bruce Agendum (talk) 23:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've adjusted the position of the images. A problem was caused by the top image (of Wilberforce's house) which, at certain sizes and under certain conditons, was not allowing the text to wrap around it, causing a substantial empty white space. Everything changes according to: a) the size of text used (in Firefox and Safari you can easily change this); b) whether the contents box is collapsed or not; c) the width of browser window being used. Bruce – Agendum (talk) 11:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wilberforce did not oppose Slavery initially

I have just watched some of bbc's bury the chains dramatisation based on actual words spoken. i will present some quotes later. Wilberforce clearly objected to the abolition of slavery after the abolition of the slave trade. This information may tarnish the sanctimonious portrayal of wilberforce in wikipedia, do you think this information should be include or should we continue to mislead readers? Artikalflex (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

If you're relying on your own interpretation of those quotes, no they shouldn't be included. If you can find a published source where someone else come sto the same conclusion, then fine. David Underdown (talk) 14:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I will present the narrators interpretation of these quotes, the actual quotes are able to stand up by itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.22.143 (talk) 12:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I will be interested to see what you come up with, but it is already clear from my researches that very, very few of the early abolitionists publicly supported emancipation right from the start even if that was privately their ultimate goal. Sharp and Ottobah Cugoano were some of the few. It was part of the slowly, slowly strategy that they all used to achieve their goals. Even Hochschild's hero Clarkson took the same approach. If you are going to produce some of WW's public statements then it won't surprise me at all if they do not focus on emancipation, or indeed seem in favour of the continuation of slavery: in fact, if you look in the article you will see that there are already some quotes and comments making this point. --Slp1 (talk) 13:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you give me a reference for the BBC dramatisation, please? I'd like to watch it, if it's still available on iPlayer. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 17:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You have to go to BFI on the south bank in London. Artikalflex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.235.253 (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Italicisation

I think that the names of the societies founded to oppose slavery should not be italicised, and propose changing them to normal characters, purely for consistency. At the moment, we're using italics for the titles of Wilberforce's and others' written works, and it's confusing for the reader. Also, I know that it's only a small point, but I think that the Society for effecting the abolition of the slave trade should have initial capitals on verbs and nouns, etc, as per normal modern style and usage. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 17:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy for these to change in whatever you think. I wonder if the MOS has anything to say about this. Probably worth checking I imagine.--Slp1 (talk) 01:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've now done this. Please let me know if there are any potential problems. As I read the Manual of Style they should not be italicised, although perhaps some may argue that the could be in double quotes. – Cheers, Bruce Agendum (talk) 11:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Teston circle

I think I might take issue with your sentence stating that "The Teston circle were interested in promoting Christianity and in moral improvement in Britain and in the British West Indies.", but then, I haven't yet read Chris Brown's book (although I've had it in order from the library, throught the Inter-Library Loan System, for some time). The statement is certainly true of the Clapham Sect, but they were not the same as the Teston group who were concerned, as I understand it, purely with the abolition of the slave trade and, later, emancipation. Granted, some of the members of both groups were the same people, but not all - Middleton, Lady Middleton and Beilby Porteus were not associated with Clapham, but were extemely active at Teston. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually this comes directly from Brown talking about the Teston Circle not about Clapham. He talks at length about their motivations and other activities. You can read a fair amount in Google books if you like. Here is a link to one of the page referenced [14] (the other one is not available for previews) but you can also go backwards and forwards a bit in googlebooks and get an idea of the work. I think you'll see that I have stuck very close to the source! --Slp1 (talk) 16:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that. It's very interesting reading – I've checked with the city librarian today, and I hope to get my hands on a copy this week. From what I have heard (and what I read in the Google Books excerpts) Brown belongs to the revisionist school of historians, which is interesting, as he is an African-American, and has a completely different approach to (some) other scholars. It doesn't invalidate his comments at all – that's not what I'm saying – but perhaps we ought to state (something like) "according to some modern historians", etc. His interpretation of the origin and motives of the movement is certainly very different to others we have already quoted (especially Pollock, but also Hague) and I feel we should differentiate his views somehow. – Cheers, Bruce Agendum (talk) 23:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but then do we have to include descriptors for Pollock (who actually gets quite a critique for his old fashioned "fan" approach by Oldfield), or Hague who isn't even a historian? My reading suggests that post Eric Williams, almost all recent scholars downplayed/ignored the role of WW and the rest, and were negative towards the whole hero-worship, selfless politician bio, though this that continued to be perpetuated by Christian apologist. This continued until quite recently, despite the fact that some of Williams' theories were proved to be incorrect. I myself think Brown is actually quite refreshing in being party to restoring importance to the Evangelicals and also saying that it isn't an either/or situation. "For too long, assessments of abolitionist initiatives have foundered on false binaries: the organizers and their constituencies were either selfless or self-interested; they were either humanitarians or hypocrites. But the motives that shape political behavior are rarely so simple....." Personally, like our reviewer Qp10qp, I think the article still veers slightly too much towards the hero version, and think the article will be more interesting if it faces up to the grey areas.--Slp1 (talk) 00:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Have also just read a number of reviews of Moral Capital from History journals. Most not free on the web but I could send you copies if you like. They are overwhelmingly positive, including about his point that the different groups were probably motivated by multiple factors, some selfless and some less so.--Slp1 (talk) 00:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Nearly done...

I think I have finished with what I had hoped to do following the peer review, and I hope we are close to being ready for a run at Featured Article. I have just had another go through the article doing a bit of a copyedit. I have moved a few things around (e.g. the marriage, is it better up top?) and also shortened some things to make the flow better, from my perspective. I would be happy to explain any specific edits I made, if it would help. Things to be done...

• check the images (I will ask the guy, I think)
• fix up pp. etc in the page numbers. Somehow we lost the double pp for the multiple page numbers.
• anything else?

--Slp1 (talk) 02:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Great that we're so close, but please hold fire for a few days! I'll have a proper look at it tonight (I'm at work at this moment). I still think we should give some recognition to the fact that the article uses material from different historical perspectives, otherwise it could be confusing to the reader. I'm still personally seeing the subject from a more traditional viewpoint, but I hope to get my hands on a copy of Brown tomorrow! I'll have a read-through later on and make any corrections or changes that I think are necesary.

Regarding the images, I will contact Keith D (unless you have already done so) - I would prefer to go for any of his pics that don't show the college building in the background, either [[15]], [[16]] or [[17]] (which I would crop slightly at LH side and top). – Cheers, Bruce Agendum (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, there is no rush. I can understand starting from the more traditional perspective, which is where I started (and still remain to a large extent!). But to get to FA we need to present the recent scholarship, and post 1940s the traditional view has been subject to considerable scholarly critique, and even rather ignored apart from the rather partisan Christian sources. And I think if you read through article you'll see that what is currently said is not actually terribly extraordinary and almost all of it is in fact citable to multiple sources, including Hague (and no doubt others). And there is a section in legacy which explains the differing historical fashions in viewing the subject. I think you'll find lots of interesting info about your illustrious relative in the Brown book, which will be useful in his article too! And he isn't unsympathetic either: here's what Oldfield says about the book in a review, for example. "While Brown has no doubts about the sincerity of either of these groups, he invites us to contemplate how, in the case of British Evangelicals, for example, their abolitionism can also be viewed as a safe strategic choice, 'an opening salvo in a wider campaign against nominal Christianity that they advanced at once on several fronts' (388-389)."

Re the photos. If you want to change it then that's fine. Why I wasn't so keen about the ones you link to is that you can't see either the details of the statue, OR get an idea of the height of the column. In fact the thing I notice most are the spikes coming out of his head!! Seemed to me a lose-lose situation, but I do agree that building in the background is a big disadvantage too. Just my point of view for what's its worth. --Slp1 (talk) 12:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, this is an old book but has some interesting essays [18] You can see more via Amazon search inside, but even googlebooks gives an interesting snapshot of various academic views of WW.Slp1 (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Image check

Slp1 asked me to double-check images in anticipation of a FAC run. Several images had run afoul of WP:IUP (Image:William wilberforce.jpg, Image:Slaveshipplan.jpg, Image:BLAKE10.JPG and Image:Sir Thomas Lawrence02.jpg lacked sourcing), but I located sources and updated/added information templates accordingly. You may wish to proof my changes to ensure I didn't introduce any errors, but the article looks to be set on the image front otherwise. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 20:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your help – I'm glad someone knows what they're doing! It's much appreciated. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thanks so much! --Slp1 (talk) 21:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)