Talk:Yahya bey Dukagjini/GA1

GA Review

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I started putting notes in the talk page, and I think I am ready to review this article. I will ask questions in the next week, and will leave another week to the authors of this article to address them. I will finish the review on November 28, which is Albania's national holiday. MorenaReka (talk) 19:10, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• ..."good luck and particularly tack meant everything". What does that mean? --MorenaReka (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Means that "if you wanted to make it in the back then world, you needed good luck and particularly tact (ethnicity did not mean much)". That is taken from literally from the source. If you have a better way of rephrasing it, go on. Mondiad (talk) 03:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that addressed my concerns.MorenaReka (talk) 18:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• Is it possible to have an opening that will summarize all the content before the article is started with the "Life" paragraph? I think you are the best person to do it. Compliance with this will get this article in much better shape. Perhaps you should address this point as the last thing, because it's the most important and should summarize when your article is complete. The opening should have 1) Name and title, that's ok now 2) Dates of birth and death (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death), 3) Context (location or nationality). Note that ethnicity should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. This is the gray area to which I feel Antidiskriminator will likely opine in a negative way if we say that he was an Albanian, as he wants that only in the early life paragraph. Let's have a discussion on this, and how this can translate in the Ottoman Empire period (as opposed to other periods of history in the world). 4)The notable positions the person held, activities they took part in or roles they played; 5) Why the person is notable. Make sure to have all these elements in the opening paragraph(s). I want to emphasize that the opening should be concise, yet easy to read, it should summarize, yet make you want to go read the rest of the article. It's not an easy task, but I will help. --MorenaReka (talk) 18:43, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• The article says that "Prince Şehzade Mustafa was executed by his father", and Yahya wrote a poem about it, however the caption of the image is "Sultan Mustafa Mehmet's mother weeping at the coffin, after he was strangled in Bursa - extract from Hünername". Who is Sultan Mustafa Mehmet, and why isn't it stated that it was Sehzade Mustafa's mother? Also can the caption mention Yahya, so that we can link the words of the article to the image itself, saying that Yahya, wrote a poem about the murder? --MorenaReka (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Şehzade meant Prince, from Persian "Son of the Şeh - Sultan". Şehzade Mustafa's name was Mustafa Mehmet, it is the same person. Thanks. Mondiad (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

That's your explanation, but the mere reader doesn't have all of that knowledge. It needs to be simpler than that. Can you please fix it? MorenaReka (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I switched the pic with a clearer one. No ambiguity. Mondiad (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

That's better, thanks! --MorenaReka (talk) 02:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• I understand that I may be asking too much, because not necessarily you may have the resources to research certain things, but, since the article claims that Yahya Dukagjini is one of the best Ottoman poets, much research must have been done with the literary aspect of his poetry, thus I feel that more sources should be available to go into further detail about his verse. Probably that is a Featured Article requirement, and not a Good Article one, but I think that beafing up a little the paragraphs of his work with more information on the literary style and achievements, would bring the article into higher standards. MorenaReka (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• Is it possible to have a list of all his publications (possibly also year of first publication)? I understand that the phrase in parenthesis might be hard to find, as several of them might not have been published but for the Ottoman elite, but if there is a source to list them all of them (lost and survived), it would greatly improve the article. MorenaReka (talk) 19:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll check.Mondiad (talk) 19:25, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

The source from the Ministry of Culture of Turkey mentiones his work collections, but in terms of publishing, not creation. Long story short, we have his work and year it was published in the 20th century.

Another thing is that the diwan is a collection of scattered poetry, and can be assembled in any point of time. Therefore some of the poetry might be written before and some a lot later.

Let me know what you thinkMondiad (talk) 19:33, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that for an upgrade of this article a list of his publications is a must, even though with limited information. We need to raise the bar of the article to include enough information so that a reader in any part of the globe has no difficulty creating an idea of who Yahya was as a writer and be brought to his works so that he can research them. So yes, I think a list is needed. MorenaReka (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm ok with the list added. --MorenaReka (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• Is it possible to bring to the article page some verses, just to illustrate one of the (I think) very few translations into English of Yahya's poetry? I believe that Elsie's translations might serve the purpose, they are here. --MorenaReka (talk) 22:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I can bring some verses from the elegy of Prince Mahmud's death. Should I wait for the review to finish first before making any major edits? Mondiad (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

No, you shouldn't wait, but make them: All edits that I will suggest are necessary for the article to be upgraded. As I mentioned I will be making comments for this week (until 19 November), and you have the time to do all your fixes until the 28th. --MorenaReka (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with the additions, but you're welcome to add more. Be careful though, to have the article balanced, this is not wikisource. --MorenaReka (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I added three verses in Ottoman and their English counterpart from the elegy. I don't plan to add anything more. Mondiad (talk) 02:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• I ran Earwig's Copyvio Detector for this article and found that there are a few expressions that come straight out of Elsie's page. They are not many, and can be corrected, but for now I have concerns because of those results, and I would call on Mondiad to rewrite them. WP:CV says "Even inserting text copied with some changes can be a copyright violation if there is substantial linguistic similarity in creative language or sentence structure; this is known as close paraphrasing, which can also raise concerns about plagiarism. Such a situation should be treated seriously, as copyright violations not only harm Wikipedia's redistributability, but also create legal issues". I think Mondiad can and should rephrase the copying that he has done from Elsie for those expressions, and let me know when he is done, so that I can rerun. I would invite Mondiad to run the tool himself. Please note that this is the most important note I have so far for this article, and I would urge Mondiad to give it a priority. Every other note is secondary. --MorenaReka (talk) 22:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

This is on my "to-do" list. Thanks. Mondiad (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Can you please rerun? Mondiad (talk) 05:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I did, excellent job! --MorenaReka (talk) 15:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Yahya was a scion of the Dukagjini tribe. " The reference is Houtsma. Are we sure that's what Houtsma's say?

"A scion of the north-Albanian family of Dukagin..." - this is from Houtsma at the very beginning of his article. Elsie uses the word "scion" too: "A scion of the Dukagin region of the Albanian alps...". p.127 [1]. Mondiad (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I understand, that's what Elsie says, but can we use some different words, rather than copying Elsie's expressions? Any synonym would be good. --MorenaReka (talk) 02:39, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I saw you fixed it, I'm good.MorenaReka (talk) 04:39, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Relation with his Albanian origin" paragraph. No need for such paragraph at this point of the article. His Albanian ethnicity, which seems confirmed by several serious authors (unless proved wrong by other serious authors) can be mentioned in the early life paragraph, and I might suggest to bring in the article the poetry translated in English by Elsie, if you think it's appropriate to bring it into the early life section, but no need to have a separate paragraph, as rightly Zoupan suggested: It just makes the article confusing and we don't want that:

The Albanians are my stock,
And all my kin live by the sword.
With ease, like falcons, these brave folk
Forge their homes within the cliffs.
This is the gift of those of Albanian stock
They are gems cached among the crags.
If you feel the poetry above does not represent Yahya, please don't enter it. --MorenaReka (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I removed the post-section and merged the two sentences in the "Early Life" section. The poetry sounds from Yahya, yes, but I would like to go with some other verses, like I mentioned above, probably from his elegy. I will approach the WP:Turkey guys and ask for help in proper translation. I hope everyone is happy. Mondiad (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to have these verses in his early life section, along with the mentioning of the Albanian ethnicity, since we have them available and translated in English from a person of letters, such as Elsie, but it's up to you. And you should care about my happiness first, and then that of the other comment makers, :-). --MorenaReka (talk) 02:33, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course I do. :). Mondiad (talk) 04:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• I see that you are doing additions. I noticed the expression " not less interesting than his life is". That's not exactly to be excluded per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch, but try to be a little bit dry, it's still an encyclopedia, and literary language should be avoided, although Yahya was a writer himself. I know that I may be making you go through hell, but this is a review, bear with me. --MorenaReka (talk) 04:11, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

These are Gibb's words, apparently he was fascinated from Yahya more than all of us were. No problem, I will rephrase it. You can always cut and sew yourself, I guess, but I will resume all open topics tomorrow. Thanks. Mondiad (talk) 04:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• Is there any linking between Dukakinzade Ahmed Pasha and Yahya that you are aware of? If yes, it'd be good to enter it, otherwise, in the "See also" section, perhaps I would get rid of Dukakinzade Ahmed Pasha. Same for Mesihi of Prishtina: Don't see how he is related; you entered them both in the Turkish literature template, so they're already there. I'll leave this up to you though, just want you to think about it, the outcome of the review won't change because of this. --MorenaReka (talk) 04:46, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Houstma mentions that they "are from the same family". Might be other sources as well. They were related, but not necessary close. Mondiad (talk) 02:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Actually Houtsma mentions Dukakinzade Ahmed (Ahmad) Bey. A poet. (1994, Ansiklopedi Maddesi, Sefercioğlu, Mustafa Nejat,“Dukaginzade Ahmed Bey”, Diyanet İslâm Ansiklopedisi, 1994, IX, 446.) I don't think it is the same person, and we don't have an article for Ahmed Bey. But Ahmed Pasha hails from the same family. The prefix is the same. I don't think linking to it is a problem as the same pattern applies. Taken as a devsirme, trained as a Janissary, became a military. In case you want to remove it from "see also" section it is still fine. Mondiad (talk) 02:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Then please enter a referenced sentence in his early life. Every mention of his family is a precious addition. I removed them from the "See also". Mesihi is unrelated but Ahmed Pasha, being from the same family should be entered in this early life. --MorenaReka (talk) 16:15, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• "reviving a 27,000[3] or 30,000[9] akçe annual income" - do you mean "receiving a 27,000[3] or 30,000[9] akçe annual income"? Please revise. --MorenaReka (talk) 04:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

yes. Mondiad (talk) 02:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting!--MorenaReka (talk) 14:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• At one point of the article we know that Yahya had a son, Adem Çelebi. Is there anything else around his family that can be put into the article? --MorenaReka (talk) 04:51, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

That would require a huge effort. The main sources do not mention his family, apparently the tezkire bibliographers do not give much info either. I tried to search and the possible sources seem to be studies from Bosnian authors which are outside my reach for the moment.Mondiad (talk) 05:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I am fine with what's in the article. Thanks for the search! --MorenaReka (talk) 14:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

• Can we please give the translation in English of the last two poems attributed to him (Nāz ü-Niyās and Sulaimān-name)? --MorenaReka (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I will ask Nadim. Mondiad (talk) 02:31, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

*The notes are as follows:

a. ^ Prince Mustafa Elegy - verses 4-6.

a. ^ English translation original by Elias John Wilkinson Gibb.

Can we make a) and b), so that the reader understands what's Gibb's translation and what's not? They are both "a" now.MorenaReka (talk) 13:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

All my notes have so far been addressed. I'm listing below the GA criteria:MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Yes, 5 editors worked on this article and the word flow is good. Would have loved to have more contributors, but it's sufficiently well written, and in good English.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Yes, I helped a little in the opening, layout, words to watch, and what not: the article is in good shape.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Yes, I had questions on sources and they were properly addressed. No OR shows in the article, according to my review. Most of the sources are inline.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	I'm marking this yes, because all my comments were addressed. All sources are reliable.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.	No OR present. We had an issue about two sources disagreeing and presented both.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Yes, many parts on the poetry of Yahya got broadened successfully upon my suggestions, as well as parts on the biography of Yahya, so it's satisfactory.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Yes, the article is focused on Yahya and everthing is in function of his life/work.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	The article is neutral. MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Yes, no edit wars noted.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	No issues with copyrights on pictures.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Yes, there are appropriate/relevant/suitable images in the article.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
	7. Overall assessment.	No other comments. I will wait for two more days until everyone is comfortable and will upgrade the article.MorenaReka (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator's comment

• Comment - I am concerned about the neutrality of the reviewer who registered only several days ago and whose (less than 150) edits since then were limited to small number of articles related to the subject of this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, if you are concerned with my ability or neutrality as a reviewer, please say so, and I will leave the review to you or to someone else. We can also review at the same time, if you will, I don't mind doing it. I was just trying to help this article make its way to a higher status, and nothing prevents a new user be a reviewer, however if you have any valid reasons to think that my qualities as a reviewer are poor, please either take this review and do it yourself, or wait until I am done, and then you can reassess the article as you please. I have not heard any concerns so far from Mondiad, who is the main contributor of the article, so I don't understand what is your issue. I have experience reviewing both in the Albanian Wikipedia, and in real life, where I do this for a living. Moreover, I had no idea about Yahya Dukagjini before I undertook this review, so to be honest with you, I don't think I have ANY neutrality issues. MorenaReka (talk) 20:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Another reason why I need to review is that I am nominating an article (Xhamadan), and it's suggested that I review two articles before I nominate any other article. It's a suggestion, not mandatory, but I still want to follow it. MorenaReka (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I did say so. I apologize if I am wrong, but almost half of your 171 edits are related to this article, and almost all of your edits are closely related to its subject. That is something that may raise concerns. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Believe me, I wouldn't have taken this article if I knew how many problems it would have caused, and my editing is mostly to address Zoupan's and your concerns. Most of my edits are related to the xhamadan article, but I can't bring it to GA if I don't review. I probably chose an article that I shouldn't, but I thought that I was doing a good thing, because I know better the area, than say, someone from Pune, India. However, I don't think I am doing a favor to Mondiad with this review: on the contrary, he probably would have been better off with another reviewer. Still, I don't think I'll stop the review. Your concerns notwithstanding I'll finish my review and give a "yeah" or "neah". --MorenaReka (talk) 17:16, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Anyone may write commentary Antidiskriminator. There are no rules to doing so. My account had been active for many years before i decided this year to enter English Wikipedia properly.Resnjari (talk) 04:19, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan's comment

• Comment The article name must be changed, as per previous section.--Zoupan 21:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
• Zoupan and Antidiskriminator, I am a very good reader and I can see your points, however Antidiskriminator seems to have no intention in doing the review himself, as he said so in my talk page, so he is leaving me to do the review. Could both of you now please stay out of this page and address your concerns in the talk page of the article? This page is for my comments only. I promise that I will follow all the concerns of the talk page in my review, but there is no need to have a review by all three of us, unless we agree to do so. Antidiskriminator has called out, do you, Zoupan, instead want to join me in the review? If yes, you are welcome, if no, please put your comments in the talk page, not here. MorenaReka (talk) 21:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

This page is not at all for your comments only (?). this article is being reviewed (additional comments are welcome). No, since the nominator was unwilling to use my help, adressed, I have no intention to clean up his mistakes.--Zoupan 22:40, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

You are right, and since you have not contributed significantly to the article, you can help me in my review, however the final decision of whether or not to list the article as a good article will be left with me. Let's just not commingle your comments with mine in this page, besides that, you are welcome to make comments. I was referring though to your comment " as per previous section", and that's in the talk page, not here.--MorenaReka (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Unresolved

There are more problems:

• According to Norris 1993, he (Yahya) claimed that he sprung from the Dukagjin noble family near Shkodër, while according to Elsie, he hailed from the Dukagjin region in northern Albania. Note that the Dukagjin family did not hold the Dukagjin region under their lifetime, but a region farther to the east. From the reverted revision.--Zoupan 01:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't completely understand your point here. Can you elaborate more? For me Dukaginzade - son of Dukagin - goes more towards the family rather than the region. But the source from the Ministry of Culture also says "from Albania", so Elsie might be right. Mondiad (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

This article isn't for you, but for readers wanting to know about this person. Include both or none.--Zoupan 13:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I put both variants.--Mondiad (talk) 17:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Citation needed for both, and please use prose to note what views are present, as said above (i.e. According to X, Yahya himself claimed Dukagjin family descent+ref, according to X, he hailed from Dukagjini region+refs).--Zoupan 19:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Done.--Mondiad (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

• Place of death, the infobox says Loznica, the text says Place of death also varies. Most sources indicate... which is false. Elsie only says took up an estate (fief) near Zvornik... withdrew from worldly affairs and turned to mysticism, dying in his eighties around the year 1582. which is not the same as "Most sources indicate". From the reverted revision.--Zoupan 01:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I tried to list as many variants as mentioned in the references. Can remove place of death from the infobox. Open to suggestions.Mondiad (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Remove from infobox.--Zoupan 13:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

removed from Infobox.Mondiad (talk) 01:57, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The sentence on death dates is awkward. When was 986 IC? Should be more like "Most sources (which?) put his year of death at 1582 (while others claim X, Y, Z)".--Zoupan 19:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Done. Place 1582 first. The IC years are converted. --Mondiad (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

• Name. If you search on "Yahya Bey" on Google or Google Books, it is clear that "Yahya Bey" is commonly used for this person. Why is the different names written in prose in the introduction? Does not follow introduction guidelines. From the reverted revision.--Zoupan 01:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan, can we please resolve the name issue out of this GA page, but in the talk page instead, where there is a very long thread, dense of good information on how to make a decision? --MorenaReka (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Name must be resolved as part of GA review.--Zoupan 13:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no reason to do so. I can hold the GA review until the naming issue is resolved. And we would lose much precious information, or we would have to transclude it here, which is completely unnecessary and confusing. Can you please go to the talk page and give your opinions there? The discussion here is way smaller and less informative than the one which is in the talk page, started by you. It would be nice if you finish something that you started. --MorenaReka (talk) 15:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, best to keep the discussion on the article title in the article talkpage designated for such purposes. Anyway that's where my comments on the name issue are going to go. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Names in introduction still awkward.--Zoupan 19:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Trivia. Isn't this more like legacy?--Zoupan 01:28, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Does it make a difference? Mondiad (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Divided into two paragraphs. Hope this helps. --MorenaReka (talk) 13:16, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes? Trivia should be In popular culture.--Zoupan 13:51, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Done. MorenaReka (talk) 14:34, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Y.--Zoupan 19:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Lack of inline citations at He was related to the other Ottoman poet Dukaginzade Ahmad Bey., The exact year of birth is unknown but is believed to be 1498. and An Albanian by birth, descendant of the Catholic Dukagjini tribe which lays in a mountainous region close to the Prokletije, or Dukagjini noble family,.--Zoupan 19:58, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Note: Dukaginzade Ahmad Bey is mentioned by Houtsma, and I added the reference. --Mondiad (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.