Talk:Yellow dog Democrat/Archive 1

Why "Yellow"?

So why a "Yellow" dog? Was yellow a common color for dogs in the South during that time period? Were yellow dogs more likely to be mutts or otherwise undesirable? Was it a reference to coyotes? -- 20:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I always heard that Yellow Dog Democrats would vote for a yellow dog before a Republican. But see my post below that I'm confused about exactly what a yellow dog dem is. Nunn08 22:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Let us remember that "Yellow" is a term for cowardly, so we may not be looking at an issue of COLOR but rather an issue of "I would rather vote for a cowardly dog than a Republican." 66.65.55.108 18:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this phrase can honestly be related to the "Carolina Dog," given that the specific breed of "Carolina Dog" was only identified as a unique breed in the 1970's? mwcob 08:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. The wikipedia article states that the Carolina dog was discovered in the 1970s, anyone think we should change the etymological section on this article? It seems that the "vote for a yellow dog" line of etymology seems a little more believable. 66.65.55.108 18:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I Thought...

I Thought Yellow Dog Democrats were very devoted democrats, no matter they're political affiliation or geographical location. I guess I'm wrong.Nunn08 22:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

"...would vote for a yellow dog if it was on the Democratic ticket."

I have never heard this phrase used to say that a democrat would rather vote for a yellow dog than a Republican. It's always like this, "Those Democrats would vote for a yellow dog if it ran on the Democrat ticket." It is not a statement of hatred towards Republicans (though that might be infered) but it refers to a voter that will vote for any inferior or unknown candidate because they are on the democrat slate. In political campaigns or organizations that have elections this can be applied to other parties or factions within parties. I want to change the article a bit but I know this is an old term and I am rather young so it's possible I am wrong but I have heard this a lot and I doubt it. If someone has better information it would be appreciated. --Victoria h 05:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong. The information here is correct. In fact I have always heard it as "I would rather vote for a mangy yellow dog then a Republician." For some reason it is toned down in this article. -- Xltel 21:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Victoria seems less than fluent in idiomatic American; a yellow dog Democrat would use "Democratic ticket". Btw, this capitalization seems almost universal in writing on the subject; my only question is if we should go to the technically more grammatical "yellow-dog Democrat"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please assist

I have made some additions to this subject but it is my first time so I was unsure of a few editing points. For one, I have included the title of a book (no worries, checked with Gaslight and it is available to quote). However, I do not know how to underline it as a book title should be in the text.

Also, I am sure there are many wikilinks that could be made both within the document and at the bottom of the document but I could not figure out how to do in the time I've allowed. I specifically would like a wikilink to Carolina dogs in it. I added external links but they only show up as numbers, so that's messed up.

I've also quoted a letter that is a geneological document and should be well outside of copyright protection as of May of this year, if it ever was copyrighted, as I understand copyright protections. Can someone confirm?

I'm a research maven, not an English teacher, so please check over for any grammatical errors or such. I am a Southerner after all and all y'all talk funny.

Thanks!

--Curiouskat 00:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

PS, I'm continuing my research because I could swear that somewhere I have seen the original attributable quotation, and I'm stubborn like that. Meantime, I am conducting and posting my research at my blog http://demokat.blogspot.com/ which I am not advertising here, just inviting you to lift whatever is there to here if you see something there you think should be here. You have my permission and my blessing. I don't have time to keep up Wikipedia, my blog, and my life all at once. Research is time consuming enough because you have to sift through all these dad-blamed blogs out there on Google and Ask. Darn blogs.

Defensiveness in etymology section

The etymology section gets very defensive in pushing a certain POV. I happen to agree with this POV, but the defensiveness just makes it sound ridiculous. —Ruakh_TALK 01:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The article and this section is not sourced (ext links aren't as effective as references/source), and the etymology section is too long, too defensive for a term that has a simple meaning. And it doesn't flow well. A good rewrite, with sourcing, would improve article. Journalist1983 13:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the section. It was unsourced, and I don't think any of it was both clearly true and relevant to this article. --Allen (talk) 12:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I know why "yellow dog"

The are feral dogs all over the south but primarily in the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi, that are yellow, occasionally with a brown saddle similar to German Shepards, that make a high pitched yipping sound instead of a normal bark. (It was a hot topic a few years ago whether these dogs are indigenous to the southern US or the decedents of European dogs that became feral during colonization.) It's presumed by some that it is a reference to these feral dogs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.128.92.46 (talk) 14:01, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

History

There's absolutely no need for a such a ridiculously long quotation. It's more than half the article! Plus it seems to suggest that the 1899/1900 Kentucky campaign was the origin of "yellow dog" as an insult, when it had been used as such for decades. The whole section should be replaced with something much shorter. My suggestion:

The term yellow dog originally referred literally to a yellow mutt, but before long it was being used to refer to anything of low character, such as a "yaller-dog horse". Its first association with Democrats specifically came during the 1899 Kentucky gubernatorial campaign, when it was used by a Democratic voter to insult his party's nominee. William Goebel had won the Democratic nomination through trickery, and as a result one voter—who had previously said he'd vote for a "yaller dog" if the party nominated one—declared that he would not support Goebel. When asked why he seemed to be reneging on his earlier statement, the voter responded, "I said then what I now repeat, namely, that when the Democratic party of Kentucky, in convention assembled, sees fit in its wisdom to nominate a yaller dog for the governorship of this great state, I will support him — but lower than that ye shall not drag me!".

In the decades that followed, the term yellow-dog Democrat appears to have become somewhat commonplace, but it gained national prominence during the 1928 presidential campaign when many Southerners voted for Democrat Al Smith despite having problems with his platform (and his Catholicism). Even with the yellow-dog votes, however, Smith lost by a landslide to Herbert Hoover.

I'd change it myself, but I imagine whoever took the time to add the ridiculously long quote wouldn't take kindly to it being summarily removed. Either way publishing info on the book that is the source of the ridiculously long quote should be put in a ref tag, not awkwardly and unnecessarily included in the main text.--76.121.3.11 (talk) 07:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Hallam was more than a voter: he actively campaigned against Goebel, so deserves mention, even tho' the story ought to be shorter. Plus, a shorter quote would be within fair use regardless of public domain status of book in Canada. Naaman Brown (talk) 10:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

direction for research

The phrase was obviously in use before the 1900 book election; finding sources ought to be focussed on personal correspondence and memoirs of 1858 thru 1900. Speculation that yellow dog means "cowardly", "feral", "coyote" overlooks the simple fact that yellow breeds of dogs were used on farm work in the South. I can't vouch for the author's research skills, but the ex-Confederate father in "Old Yeller" (book and film) had a yellow farm dog (a Blackmouth Cur; not, as commonly misconscrued, a Labrador retriever) so perhaps yellow dogs were common sights on Southern farms. Naaman Brown (talk) 11:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A quick look at the dictionary uncovers "yellow dog, a cowardly, despicable person; a craven (1825-35)" and "yellow-dog contract" an exclusive contract between an employer and non-union worker (1915-20) but oddly no definition of "yellow dog Democrat" or "yellow-dog Democrat". Given the Southern Democrat penchant for voting for ex-Confederate war heroes (and in some cases war criminals), "cravens" need not apply. Yellow-dog as an exclusive contract might have promise, but contract between non-union worker and employer has the stench of coward about it. Yellow dog and loyalty (farm dog) has a subjective appeal. Why is there so little reliable research on such a widely used phrase? Naaman Brown (talk) 12:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I added a couple of references to the article. It appears that the term "yellow dog" started as an item or person that was held in contempt and became a generic person without any special qualities. It had nothing to do with a political party, Nebraska had "yellow dog" Republicans and Arkansas had "yellow dog" Democrats

• Barrere, Albert (1890). A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon & Cant. The Ballentyne Press. p. 425. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Yellow dog (American). Dr. 0. W. Holmes, in "Elsie Venner," has written an amusing comment on the fact that in the New England States a yellow dog is a synonym for all that is contemptible.
"I am looked at as a blackmailer," said he, "and those who believe I have been bleeding that old man hold me in as much contempt as a yellow dog" -- American Newspaper.

Democrats in the North though they could elect yellow dogs.

• "Cincinnati Local Politics". The New York Times. March 11, 1883. p. 1.

There is no eagerness shown, however, among Republicans to seek office at this time, when Democrats can see nothing but certain victory awaiting them. "Why, we could nominate yellow dogs this Spring and elect every one upon the ticket by a big majority," said one of the Democratic ward statesman today.

• "Ohio Election Results". The New York Times. April 4, 1883. p. 1.

The boast of the Democrats that they could elect yellow dogs in Cincinnati has been shown to be as untrue as it was foolish.

• Welsh, Herbert (November 21, 1901). "News and Comment". City and State. Philadelphia. p. 322.

William Wilkins Carr was a candidate for District Attorney in Philadelphia . "Carr's candidacy demonstrated that there are in this city 7000 Democrats of the kind that would vote for a 'yellow dog,' if he was labeled Democratic."

--SWTPC6800 (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 20 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 01:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

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Yellow dog Democrat → Yellow Dog Democrat – Appears to be a proper phrase as demonstrated by sources such as South Carolina Democratic Party, Political Dictionary, The University of Texas at Austin, etc. It is also better to have it consistent with Blue Dog Coalition per WP:TITLECON. Keivan.f^Talk 05:15, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Keivan.f: The first and the third sources establish that it's capitalized when used in other proper phrases ("Yellow Dog Club", "Yellow Dog Blog"), but neither seems to show "dog" being capitalized in general, and the second and third sources repeatedly use it lowercased. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 05:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Tamzin: That's not how those pages are titled though. Yes, occasionally they use "yellow dog Democrat" in some sentences but a quick search on Google yields Wikipedia as the only online source that has chosen "Yellow dog Democrat" over "Yellow Dog Democrat" for the main title. If anyone could prove otherwise I'd be glad, because I have no strong feelings about either of these formats. I just want to make sure that it is written correctly. Keivan.f^Talk 05:36, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

    Google is showing me a mix of both, complicated by many page titles being in title case. Google News shows overwhelmingly lowercase-dee "dog". There may well be a case to capitalize the dee for consistency, but I think it would be better to have a proper RM about that. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 05:40, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The sources indicate that the generic term is "yellow dog Democrat", so the current title is the correct one. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.