Talk:Yuzuru Hanyu/Archive 1

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Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus, therefore restoring to previous name. --Aervanath (talk) 17:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Still in high school?

The personal life section says he is, but the infobox says he's 19. Not inconceivable, and maybe less so in Japan, but possibly outdated. Anyone more knowledgable in this sort of thing? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2016

Please edit the name in hiragana (under right info box) from はにゅう ゆずる to はにゅう ゆづる as it is the correct transcription and my proposed version is used in Japanese version of the article. Acirelk (talk) 19:44, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Done st170etalk 00:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

What was the injury at the end of 2017?

The article should mention the injury at the end of 2017 that made his performance at the Olympics questionable. Right foot ligament? But exactly what and how serious? Shanen (talk) 10:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Ghislain Briand

Should Ghislain Briand named as one of the coaches? He was was part of coaching for Yuzuru Hanyu at the Olympics of 2018. Fulcher (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Ghislain Briand is not named as Hanyu's coach in his ISU biography. He has an entire team of coaches, but not each of them is credited - only Brian Orser and Tracy Wilson are officially listed. To avoid misunderstandings, only the officially listed coaches appear in this wikipedia article. 3a4t (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Added Briand to the infobox as he is now listed as one of the coaches in Hanyu's ISU biography. 3a4t (talk) 20:54, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Update infobox's profile picture?

Should we change the profile picture (shown in infobox) into a photo of him at the 2018 PyeongChang Olympics? If so, which photo should we choose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.93.204.238 (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Currently there is no suitable(= facing forwards, preferably taken in a ceremony setting) photo of Hanyu from the PyeongChang Olympics that is published under a license that would allow it to be displayed in a Wikipedia article. When (or rather if) such photo is published, we can update his infobox picture. 3a4t (talk) 16:28, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

ISU personal best scores starting from season 2018-2019

As the ISU judging system had been adjusted starting from 2018-19 season and previous records made historical, what is a good way of showing the personal best scores? It is less accurate and less informative to completely remove historical records from the infobox for skaters who have competed extensively under the historical system. However, as the current template was not made to accommodate both current personal best scores and historical personal best scores, adding both records under the current template could possibly be visually confusing. In this situation, would it be a better approach to edit the figure skater infobox template, instead of simply removing the historical records? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onigiri330 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

There is currently no uniform standard for updating the Personal Bests in the infobox on skating Wikipedia, since the changes have (generally) caused confusion. However, it is stated multiple times in the article (including the lead section) that Hanyu holds all three historical records in addition to current records. I don't think excluding those from the infobox undermines Hanyu's achievements - the infobox should provide information quickly and succinctly in regards to the current competing situation. Including both in the infobox is in my opinion misleading and unnecessary, especially since the ISU is clearly trying to separate both eras of scoring as evidenced by the skaters' ISU biographies. Including both HR and WR is something I haven't seen in any other article concerning a historical world record holder.

Several editors are currently working on standardizing the PB problem, for now the preferred format seems to be either just PB under the new system, or a mixture of PBs from old and new system (also a confusing solution since the numbers are no longer comparable).

Until the template for skaters' infobox is modified I think the best solution is just to include the current PBs/WRs accordingly.

ETA: I suggested a change to the infobox in the template's talk page. I don't have the editor status necessary to edit templates and creating a new one is beyond my competence. 3a4t (talk) 10:22, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Yuzuru Hanyu/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hawkeye7 (talk · contribs) 20:52, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Claiming this one. Review will follow soon. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:52, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

  • There are a number of unsourced statements like "and he has expressed an interest in training for a quad axel prior to the 2022 Olympics. " (this happens to be a true statement, but in a WP:BLP we need actual sources). The coaches and choreographers section needs expansion. @Hawkeye7: I myself am a figure skater and would prefer to do this review instead, if you don't mind.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Note that WP:FIGURE does not have its own special MOS, and there are very few GA's at all on skating articles, but I do want to make sure it is thorough from a reader's point of view too. I think this is almost ready, but there are a few issues to address here.

#It is reasonably well written.

  1. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    The article is very dense and a bit overwhelming to read – please consider a WP:SPLIT of some of his career information into subarticles.
    That sounds like it would be good for the article. What do you think about a split for Pre-Olympic career into a sub-article with a link from the main article? ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    @ErnestKrause: He will almost certainly have three Olympics (Beijing), but it's hard to think of other natural ways to split it. I'm not sure if "Pre-Olympic career of Yuzuru Hanyu" would be a good article title. More formal would be "1998-2014 figure skating seasons of Yuzuru Hanyu", which is blander but is more easily extendible to further splits. I am thinking that he has enough source coverage on every season of his that we could have an article on every four (except before Sohci) seasons, leading up to and including each Olympic Games he goes to. @Figureskatingfan: who had some thoughts on the possible split.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    Ernest and Jasper, since I was pinged, I'll go ahead and chime in. I think that it's commendable that this article has been submitted for GA, but this brings up an issue with promoting an article before the end of a skater's career. Hanyu's career is far from over, of course, so more content will need to be added, which means that you'll have to resubmit the article everytime you update it. But it's good that you're improving it, anyway! About forking articles; see WP:CFORK, and for a model of an FA about an athlete with forks, see Magic Johnson. I disagree about creating articles for separate seasons other than Hanyu's Olympic performances; I'm not sure they'd be notable enough. Figure skating bios, especially about successful skaters (see Johnny Weir) tend to be longer, although I agree that this article could be shorter. I have some ideas for potential splits: "Yuzuru Hanyu at the Olympics", "List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu" (here's a similar list for Johnson: List of career achievements by Magic Johnson). I think that if you were to create these new article/lists, it would make this article more manageable. Best of luck! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    @ErnestKrause:@Jasper Deng:@Figureskatingfan:I have been editing the article for the last few months now, and about splitting the article, I think maybe we can create "Detailed competition results of Yuzuru Hanyu" then put it with Template:Main above Career highlights. I also agree with "List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu" for his world records and achievements. We can also make "List of awards and honors received by Yuzuru Hanyu" (maybe turn the list into tables so it's easier to sort?) since it already has a paragraph of summary anyway. And for the Career part, I think we could make it more concise rather than splitting them. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:24, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    Nice comments and suggestions. Which ever option for a split is done, it might be useful to apply a naming convention for the split article which places his name at the front of the new article title, for example, "Yuzuru Hanyu's list of career achievements", if that's the split which is chosen. This will allow the split article to appear in the drop box whenever a new reader enters Yuzuru's name into the Wikipedia article search box at the top of the page. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    @Jasper Deng: Thank you very much for all your hard work and polishing the page! I have two small suggestions: (1) Many fans complain that it's exhausting to scroll down the main article, click on the link to the achievements page and scroll down again for the detailed results. I think it would be smart to pin the navigation box of the "Yuzuru Hanyu article series" on top of the main page for quick access. It's currently somewhere below the profile/medal table and doesn't really strike out. (2) It would be good to mention in the record section that he has set a total of 19 world records and 12 of them in the old +/-3 system. You don't have to list them up, but write it in one sentence at least. Otherwise people may think that he has "only" set 7 WR in total, which is misleading.
    Addition: A fellow fan reminded me that Yuzuru was first in the world standings at the end of the 19/20 season, not second. She shared a screenshot of the final standings as of April 2020 on her blog: Understanding world standings Henni147 (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@Henni147: A WP:Series does the job perfectly. @ErnestKrause: This navigational issue makes me disinclined to pass the article (even disregarding the split issue and Hawkeye7's followup review below). Category:Yuzuru Hanyu is also orphaned; it needs to be placed in all the categories his article is in.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  1. The Infobox listing is also confirmed here at List of ISU World Standings and Season's World Ranking statistics. Season 'ranking' is #1, though season 'standing' is #2, for 2019-2020. The Infobox in the article uses season 'standing'. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
    @ErnestKrause: Thank you very much for the clarification and link to the page with the standing/ranking lists! There was a lot of confusion with different sources: IFS magazine listed him as #1 in rankings and standings, ASTA as #1 in standings and #2 in rankings and the ISU has updated the tables already.
    @Jasper Deng: (1) The navigation sidebar of the article series itself is totally fine and very helpful. It's just that many fans complained, they needed longer to find the sidebar on the page than the link in the achievement section, and they want to have quick access to the subpages, especially to his detailed competition results. My idea would be to either place a link to the detailed results on top of the page or hide some parts of the (very long) infobox to give the navigation sidebar more spotlight. What do you think? (2) In the infobox the 2021 Team Trophy bronze medal should be placed below the 2017 gold I think? That would fit the medal order of the other competitions better. Henni147 (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
    Let me help answering these. (1) There are rules about the order of things in Wikipedia layout so all articles are uniformed. One of them is all articles started with the infobox then comes the extra sidebar navbox. So there's no way to put it on top of the page. If one finds the infobox is too long, there's an option to hide the medal record part (click 'hide' beside the medal record). Medal Record is set to be shown fully as default to help general audience, who is the main target of wiki as an encyclopedia, to know about Yuzuru in one glimpse. All of his most important achievements also have been listed in the lead (opening paragraph), another part audience will read immediately. With table of contents, they could go straight to the World Records and Achievements subsection where the link to the Achievements article is already there. In fact, that article has been linked four times in the main article despite Wikipedia doesn't allow overlink. So really, it's the most accessible as it can be. With more access to the Achievements article, it will eventually easier to be found by Google too. (2) Fixed. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
    Thank you! Yes, I expected that the suggestions wouldn't fit the layout guidelines. But I totally agree that the current number of links should do. I also shared the news of the page-split and subpage-links via SM in hope that many people will visit his Olympics and achievement article. Big thanks to the whole team of authors for your amazing work and congratulations for reaching the GA status! Henni147 (talk) 07:42, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  1. There are a few grammar and styling issues that need to be ironed out:
    • Several uses of "n-point barrier". This is not academic (WP:TONE) and should be replaced by "exceed n points". The reader might also benefit from a wikilink to the article on the IJS, or these numbers don't mean much.
      Changing grammar to his 'receiving' specific scores. Changes made to the three or four places I have found which did this. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Hanyu is the first Asian figure skater competing in men's singles" --> "Hanyu is the first Asian men's singles skater". In general, I will highlight places where you can make this long article more WP:CONCISE.
      Going with concise version. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:59, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "At two years old" – awkward. Suggest "At the age of 2"
      Your version better. Your version added into article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:09, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    • " a condition that slowly improved as he got older." – should be rewritten to avoid any implication that he's been cured of it (perhaps add another clause to the sentence clarifying that)
      Adding his choreographer's account of when Hanyu began to deal effectively with his asthma issues. Add notes. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "it was revealed his graduation thesis summarizes how much 3D motion capture technology can be used in figure skating and what the prospects are for integrating the technology into the figure skating judging system" – this sentence is clunky. Suggested reword: "his graduation thesis was revealed to explore how 3D motion capture technology could be used in figure skating, and in particular its potential for use in figure skating judging".
      Going with your version. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:25, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "The medal also earned him an invitation" – strictly speaking, his placement did, not the piece of metal he won. Let's be as accurate as we can.
      Better wording refers to his High performance level. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in his free skating" --> "in his free skate"
      One of the previous editors before 2018 appears to have made this error 2 or 3 dozen times. These are all fixed now and "All" of the corrections requested below, 2-3 dozen, are now repaired. This entry is the only comment for the global repair of this text fix and is not repeated for all the other ones including the entry directly below this one. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:25, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in the free skating" --> "in the free skate" – For this and the previous point, skating media never uses the gerund form of "free skate".
    • "He won the competition after placing third in the short program and first in the free skating to earn a new personal best of 216.10 points, and became the fourth, and the youngest, Japanese man to win the junior world title." – This sentence has multiple, awkward, uses of "and". I suggest splitting this into multiple sentences.
      Sentence break added. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:03, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in the free skating" --> "in the free skate" (as before)
    • "Water pipes under the ice at his home rink burst" – delete "at his home rink". The reader knows from the previous sentence that we are talking about his home rink, so this is redundant.
      Going with concise version. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "he and other skaters took part in an ice show" – Remove "and other skaters". "Took part" is sufficient to imply that he was not the only skater.
      Going with 'In April, he participated in an ice show...'. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:14, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the free skating" --> "the free skate" (again)
    • "his free skating" --> "his free skate" (again)
    • "in the free skating" -->"in the free skate" (again)
    • "In the 2013–14 season, Hanyu succeeded in capturing the Grand Prix Final, Olympic, and World titles and broke the record for the short program twice. He was also the first skater to break the 100-point barrier in the short program. " This is chronologically out of order. It should be put in order in a chronology like this.
      Improve wording and correct chronology. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in the free skating" --> "in the free skate" (again)
    • "the free skating warm-up" --> "the warmup for the free skate"
    • " in the free skating " --> "in the free skate" (again)

Convenient section break

    • "After the competition, he received stitches on his head and chin" – it ought to be specified why he got those stitches. The reader is left here guessing at the outcome of the aforementioned collision.
      Reason for stitches from collision and his subsequent five falls. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:53, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the free skating" --> "the free skate" (again)
    • "and free skating"-->"and free skate"
    • "training a month afterward" --> "training a month later"
    • "However, in the middle of February, he sprained his right ankle and once again, suspended on-ice training for two weeks." – Firstly, there's no need to be vague about the date (replace "middle of February" with something more specific). Secondly, the part after the "and" is awkward, especially with the unnecessary comma; I suggest "and once again suspended on-ice training, this time for two weeks".
      Date added. The collision news took over for this time period. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:13, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "In March, his training restarted in Japan without his coach, Brian Orser" – This should use a more active voice: "In March, he resumed training in Japan, without his coach Brian Orser".
      Switch to active voice. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:15, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the free skating" --> "the free skate"
    • " and over bronze medalist Denis Ten" – Not sure this is necessary to mention. If you want to mention this, mention the point margin.
      List first and second only. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:18, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "He also met up with Mansai Nomura, the actor who portrayed Seimei in the film to get advice on how to portray the character" – missing comma after "in the film". I also suggest the informal "met up" be replaced by simply "met", or "met up with" be replaced by "consulted" (in that case, "to get advice" should be removed)
      Met with Mansai. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:39, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "invalidating his popped quadruple toe loop into a double" – The meaning of this needs to be more clearly articulated for less-informed members of the audience, who might not know that a 2TL on its own does not get credit in the short program. It is the act of popping that causes the drop to a double, which in turn causes the pass to receive no credit, so as-written, this sentence places the cart before the horse.
      Two sentence version looks better. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "and breaking the Zayak Rule by executing a triple Lutz-double toe loop instead of a planned triple Lutz-triple toe loop" – without information on other jumping passes, the breaking of the rule does not follow from the previous part of the sentence, since it would be legal to do two 2TL's as long as one is in a combo, as it seems to be here.
      Too much detail for short program. Trimming text. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the quadruple Salchow and toe loop" – try to be more explicit and say "a quadruple salchow and quadruple toe loop" (or use "quad" to abbreviate)
      Quad Salchow and quad toe loop. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Extra comma was introduced after "quad toe loop" (Oxford comma is not used with only two items)
      Remove extra comma. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:45, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Second section break

    • "In the free skating, Hanyu landed three clean quadruple jumps, two clean triple Axels, and five clean triple jumps" – This needs to be arranged by combo as these were not all separate jumping passes. It is also not necessary to use "clean" this much when all passes were clean. It would be more efficient to simply say "all of which were clean" at the end, or (as we do not need to provide intricate detail), just say that all of his jumping passes were clean.
      It was 4 quads according to the source. Undating text. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:03, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "breaking both world records" – world records in what? In a dense article like this, maintaining context is important.
      For the free skate and the combined total. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the free skating" --> "the free skate" again
    • "After an error-filled performance" – Suggested rewrite: "After these errors". It seems to me that it is referring to those mistakes, in which case the connection must be made.
      Going with better phrasing. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "would be taking" --> "would take". Again, use the active voice.
      Use active voice. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "got worse" --> "worsened" for similar reasons
      Trim words. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:13, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in being"-->"in becoming". Also, on a general note, in a chronological article like this, individual section summaries, especially short ones, are not necessary and disrupt the flow of the article.
      "Becoming" is better. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the free skating" --> "his free skate"
    • "failing to perform a jump combination" – This is unnecessarily vague. There are numerous ways one can fail to perform a combo as intended, so this provides little information for the reader.
      He elected not to perform a planned jump sequence. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "his free skating"-->"his free skate"
    • "he invalidated one element and failed to perform a combination" – again, either be more specific, or simply say he made mistakes
      Left out a planned combination. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Chopin's "Ballade No. 1" – The ballade is not a song or opera and therefore should not be in quotes. The correct way to link this is (a pipelink to) Ballade No. 1 (Chopin). Furthermore, the article is skipping ahead by mentioning a "return" to this piece when it has not been previously mentioned at all in the article. Per MOS:LINK it at the minimum needs to be wikilinked at its first mention.
      Link to music article. This edit is supported by the Tables and Charts section which enumerates his individual programs. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
      You should use a pipelink instead of a literal link.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
      I've tried it both ways, and without the closing quote mark or italic, then the numeric "1" looks odd and seems to break the conventional narrative. Possibly it could be bolded, though that also does not look correct. If you have a preference for the piped text, then let me know. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Third section break

    • "free skating"-->"free skate" (several locations)
    • "The 2018–19 season was also a hectic one" – "hectic" is a WP:PEACOCK word. I suggest removing the section summary entirely.
      Remove redundant section summary. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "The former pays tribute" – "pays" should be "paid" as this refers to a past event
      Past tense. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "under-rotating" – "underrotating", without the hyphen, is accepted in the figure skating world. Therefore, per MOS:HYPHEN, the hyphen should be removed.
      No hyphen. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "He considered withdrawing from the event but opted to compete aided by painkillers and changed his program layout to not exacerbate the injury" – missing commas: after "compete", after "painkillers"
      Add subordinate clause. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:55, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Hanyu was recommended three weeks of rest for his ankle to recover. " – [by whom?]
      Move the documenting citation to follow this sentence since it documents both closing sentences in this paragraph. 'Whom' is in cite. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
      If "whom" is in the cite, it should be mentioned to the reader, who wants to know.
      Wording has been changed to: "Similar to his preparations for the Olympics, he relied on painkillers before and during the event to make jumping possible. The expected timing of his recovery was uncertain.[196]" Prescribing physicians are not listed in this article for his medical conditions and injuries. I could add 'prescribed painkillers' if this is a question of non-prescribed medicine being used. Japan Skating Association head of development Yoshiko Kobayashi is the one who reported the medical condition and I have added her name. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "before being broken again" – should be "but were quickly surpassed". Let's try to be a bit more formal.
      Improved wording. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:59, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • " He also revealed that similar to his preparations for the Olympics, he relied on painkillers before and during the event to make jumping possible. The expected timing of his recovery is uncertain." – This is awkward. I suggest removing "He also revealed". The second sentence needs to be in the past tense.
      Shorten wording. Consistent past tense. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "season's final event, World Team Trophy" – missing definite article before "World Team Trophy"
      Add def. article. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:40, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Japanese championships which doubled" – missing comma after "championships"
      Shorten sentence and add comma. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:45, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "with three straight" – "with three consecutive". "straight" is unacademic and imprecise.
      Correct word choice. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:54, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Since 2019, Hanyu has become the ambassador" – incorrect use of "has become" and "Since". "Since" implies the present continuous, which does not allow for "has become".
      Use correct verb form. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "global muse" – "muse" is too informal and imprecise; if this is what the source states, then put it in quotes.
      That's what the brand calls him. Put in quotes. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "the earthquake victims" – definite article not needed
      Remove def. article. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "he was also directly affected by the disaster" – needs clarification
      Give his quote from article cited. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • " Since February 2015, he became" – another instance of incompatible grammatical tenses
      Change to "In 2015". ErnestKrause (talk) 22:25, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "He appeared in five of the nine posters being released" – remove "being"
      This line appears to have been removed after over-edits. If something more needs to be done then let me know. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Flowers bloom on Ice" – the capitalization of this looks incorrect; "bloom" should be capitalized unless the source explicitly uses this capitalization
      Translation is with the definite article. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Besides autobiographies" --> "In addition to his autobiographies"
      Using your version. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:54, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "The book topped Amazon's reservation sales rankings" – when?
      It was September. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:57, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "in the history of ice skating competition" – "ice skating" also includes speed skating. Find a way to state that this is specifically within figure skating.
      Changed it into "competitive figure skating" and linked it to Figure skating competition. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 11:18, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "Note: Because of the introduction of the new +5 / -5 GOE (Grade of Execution) system which replaced the previous +3 / -3 GOE system, ISU has decided that all statistics start from zero from the 2018–19 season onwards. All previous records are now historical." – This needs to be a footnote (WP:FOOTNOTE) and placed earlier on.
      Done. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 11:18, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

#It is factually accurate and verifiable.

  1. a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
    • "Hanyu is regarded by analysts as an accomplished and versatile skater known for his ability to combine strong technique with mature and versatile artistry." – if we are to have a statement summarizing the opinion of the whole skating world, we need multiple sources, not just one.
      Going to triple cites now. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
    • "As this competition served both as the junior national championships and the World Junior Championships qualifier, Hanyu qualified for the 2009 World Junior Championships. " – [citation needed]
      Shorten wording and correct placement of reference. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

#It is broad in its coverage.

  1. a (major aspects): b (focused):
    In spite of its existing length, the article is almost entirely lacking history on his early skating career, only mentioning that he began at age 4 with his sister
    Pre-junior competition moved to personal life section. Keep Junior competition career separate and independent for clarity in article. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

#It follows the neutral point of view policy.

  1. Fair representation without bias:
  2. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:

#It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

  1. a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Since jumps are one thing he's known for, there should be more pictures of his air position among other things.
    After checking the foreign language versions of his Wikipedia article, there do not appear to be any such images on Interwiki for one of his air positions. If someone can find such an image and load it into Wikimedia Commons, then I would be able to bring it into the article. At present, not even the Japanese version of Wikipedia has such an image. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:24, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

#Overall:

  1. Pass/Fail:
    @ErnestKrause and Yolo4A4Lo: Please address the above issues and ping me when done for another pass. That said, I'm really happy to see a skating article receive much-needed editor attention and I hope this effort is expanded to cover other skaters' articles, and also articles on different elements.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
  1. @Jasper Deng: Nice for you to take on such a long article for Yuzuru. That's really a useful and thorough list, and it may take more than a day or two for me to catch up. I'll try to ping you when there is significant progress. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
    @Jasper Deng: That should look a little better. After you have a chance to look at the updated article, then let me know about further changes and updates. ErnestKrause (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

More issues to address:

  • " in one competition. " – redundant and confusing (did he only do it at just a single competition? (no))
  • Splitting still needs to be addressed. I suggest opening a discussion on the main talk page and pinging WT:FIGURE.
Invite posted there for all who are interested. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:29, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: Lack of interest in a splitting discussion does not mean we can disregard the guidelines at WP:SPLIT, and sadly WikiProject Figure Skating needs more attention. Maybe do a WP:RFC.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
There may be the added concern of the upcoming Olympics in February. If the split is done before the Olympics, then the page count spikes from new readers may cause them to miss out on parts of the article which may have been split because many new readers will be unfamiliar with all of Wikipedia's options for clicking and re-clicking to find material. New readers might miss out on nice article material. I have no problem doing a split now and have already offered to do one version of the split above. I think, though, that the best timing for the split or the RFC would be for after the Olympics at the end of February. By then there will also likely be a new section for Hanyu and his Third Olympics which will give more options for the best place to split the article. I think the best timing for it is for after the Olympics next February. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "caused by Hanyu's asthma " We know this is about Hanyu's asthma, so you should use "his asthma" or "the asthma".
His asthma. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:23, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "the skaters" – Remove "the". He didn't say that was the whole set of skaters who influenced him.
Drop def. article. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "Nanami Abe became his coach around that time."–If possible, elaborate. Many skating fans are deeply interested in the reasons for coaching changes.
Nanami Abe and Syoichiro Tsuzuki were his coaches and choreographers until Hanyu switched to Brian Orser years later in 2012. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:18, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "3–4 hours a day up from 1–2 hours" – missing comma after "day"
Missing comma added in. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "In the 2013–14 season, Hanyu succeeded in capturing the Olympic (February), and World (March), and the Grand Prix Final titles, and broke the record for the short program twice. He was also the first figure skater to receive over 100 points in the short program. " – again, do we really need this section summary?
Drop redundant section summary sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:38, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Response section break

  • "falling on the quadruple Salchow" – per MOS:LINK, only the first mention of salchows should receive a wikilink.
Redundant link to Salchow removed. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:41, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "Hanyu's 2014–15 season was plagued by injury and illness. Despite that, Hanyu defended his Grand Prix Final title and earned a silver medal at the 2015 World Championships." – see the above point about section summaries
Remove redundant section summary sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "His total score was 34.26 points higher than silver medalist Javier Fernández." – nitpick: this is saying that his score, a point value, was higher than Javier himself. Make sure the subject is correct (e.g. add a 's after Javier's name)
Use genitive form. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "In the 2015–16 season, Hanyu broke all three men's figure skating world records twice, becoming the first man to receive over 200 points in the free skate and over 300 points in the total scores. He became the first man to win three consecutive Grand Prix Final titles and earned a silver medal at the 2016 World Championships, despite an injury in his left foot." – see the above point about section summaries
Remove redundant section summary. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "adapted a triple Salchow into a double" – this is not the correct terminology, even if the action might've been intended to be adaptive. Moreover, it doesn't distinguish between whether he popped it, or simply decided to execute a double in lieu of a triple (the reader wants to know whether he was going for three)
Decided to do a double. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "instead of two quadruple toe loops" – the toe loop is a toe jump and surely he would not be doing toe loops, but he conceivably could do flip or lutz (which, like the salchow, entail a push off the inside edge). Please clarify this.
Two quad loops which were not performed. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:57, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Changed back to "quadruple toe loops" as stated in the sources. He didn't do flip or lutz because he needed a third quad, and quad flip and lutz hadn't been landed by that time. So his choice was only either quad Salchow or quad toe loop.Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 08:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
  • 2016–17 season: Second world title – see the above point about section summaries.
Remove redundant section summary. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "He became the first man to win four consecutive Grand Prix Finals." – Ice dance and pairs teams have men in them. I think you mean men's singles skater.
Men's singles skater. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "developing the flu"– Change to "contracting the flu". He didn't craft the flu virus!
After contracting the flu. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "He scored 223.20 in the free skate and set a new world record and a personal bes" – try to find a way to avoid chained "and"'s
He scored 223.20 in the free skate which set both a new world record and a personal best. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "2017–18 season: Second Olympic title – see the above point about section summaries
Remove redundant section summary sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "he had set previously" – "previously" is redundant. Suggest "he set" or "he had set"
Set previously. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:13, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • " elected to not perform a quadruple loop" – "perform" should be changed to "attempt"
Not attempt. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:19, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Remove hyphen. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:20, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "by around three points. " – either change "around" to "about" or (preferably) give the exact point value
Shorten sentence. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:22, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "His guests included Evgeni Plushenko, Johnny Weir, Shae-Lynn Bourne, Jeffrey Buttle, and Takahito Mura among others." – guests in the audience, or guest performers?
Jeffrey Buttle and Shae-Lynn had choreographed part of Hanyu's program and Takahito Mura performed a dance during the show. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "third wave of the Coronavirus pandemic " – "coronavirus pandemic" is ambiguous as there are many coronaviruses. Either use "COVID-19" in place of "Coronavirus" or just omit "Coronavirus".
COVID-19. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:36, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "affected by the disaster stating" – missing comma after "disaster"
Comma added. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Other callouts on the previous issues have also been placed as replies above.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems ready for another round of edits and updates. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: I replied in the first list of issues as well; please address those too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
They should all be addressed this time around, and if any need more attention then let me know. Regarding the page split issue, there do not appear any follow-up comments, perhaps readers find that the size at 250Kb is something like a medium sized politics biography article elsewhere on Wikipedia. If you have a final preference from the 4-5 comments previously gathered at the top of this review page for a possible page split then let me know whether to leave the article as is or to try a page split according to one of the comments previously made above. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Third pass:

  • "At the age of two, Hanyu was diagnosed with asthma, a condition that slowly improved as he got older. The condition remained an issue for Hanyu well into his career in Junior competition, and Canadian choreographer David Wilson has stated that it was not until Hanyu's transition into adult competition that he succeeded in learning to cope with his endurance issues caused by his asthma and experienced in the later parts of his performed programs as a Junior" – MOS:CASE: I don't believe "Junior" needs to be capitalized. "as he got older" should be replaced with "over time"
    Shorten sentence using "over time", and lower case for "Junior" when not used as a title for an event. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • " the actor who portrayed Seimei in the film to get advice" – missing comma after "film"
    Add missing comma. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • "With this result, he qualified for the Grand Prix Final in second place with 28 ranking points" – second place in what? Please clarify (I know and you know this is referring to season GP points, but the reader might not even know what GP points are)
    Add short elaboration of accumulating GP points. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, I don't know how much media coverage there is on it, but his fans are very unique among skating fans, especially in their tossing of Winnie the Pooh stuffies onto the ice. This is mentioned in the title of one of the NYT sources. I think WP:DUE weight and broadness in coverage (as a GA criterion) warrant a section on his fans, particularly the Winnie the Pooh throwing, likely in his "public life" section.
    It is a signature for him during his performances. Add to personal life section with TIME magazine article from 2018. Seems to look ok as a new paragraph addition for now. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:19, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Overall, I feel that an RfC on the split is the last thing that is needed before this can be passed.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:17, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

@Jasper Deng: If the article split is needed at this time then Figureskatingfan suggesting that "Yuzuru Hanyu at the Olympics" would be satisfactory is a top option. I would tend to go along with her since that would also address Hanyu's participation in a 3rd Olympics next February. Can we go along with Figureskatingfan on this? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: As reviewer, it isn't really my job to figure out how, and I don't have very strong preferences on the particulars. @Figureskatingfan: for comment.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:11, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Guys, I went ahead and did some drafting for possible forked articles, and put them in two of my sandboxes. The first draft, User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 2 is very much a draft, but you see what I think would be a good way to decrease the size of this article. I'd call it Olympic career of Yuzuru Hanyu, which is just a suggestion and up for discussion if anyone can think of a better title. It would also need an expanded lead and the references fixed. Notice that I included content about Hanyu's Olympic seasons, done because this possible article wouldn't be long enough. You'd have to summarize the content in the original article and add the Main|Yuzuru Hanyu template. The second draft is a list; User:Figureskatingfan/Sandbox 5. I think this list should be called List of career achievements by Yumuru Hanyu. Again, you'll have to expand the lead and fix the refs, and then summarize the sections in the original and add the above-mentioned template. I think creating the two new forked articles will go far in shortening this article and making it more readable and manageable. I realize that this is a lot of work. I'm willing to create the articles, but you'll have to be patient with me. This kind of thing would take way longer than a weekend evening and I simply don't have that time right now. If you're willing to postpone this GAC for three more weeks (perhaps shorter), I promise that I will do it right after I turn in my last paper of the semester. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 06:24, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@Jasper Deng:@ErnestKrause:@Figureskatingfan: Hi, I'm willing to help to edit/create the fork articles in case Figureskatingfan is busy. I have checked and edited her sandboxes which I think are good enough already. However, I left out Programs and Career Highlights because I think those are typical information readers expect to find at first glance on the main article. I'm also willing to help integrate the new fork articles to the main one if needed.Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 14:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
@Figureskatingfan:@Jasper Deng:@Yolo4A4Lo: It looks like agreement on this approach which can move ahead at this time. My agreement that Yolo can go ahead with the fork for the two sub-articles. With appreciation for Figureskatingfan who took the lead on this. After it is done then let me know and I can go forward with further updates and edits on the main article with any further edit requests from Jasper. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
@Jasper Deng:@ErnestKrause:@Figureskatingfan: I've created articles List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu and Yuzuru Hanyu Olympics seasons based on request. Feel free to edit them as needed. I have added the link to Achievements on Main to replace Detailed results, but I wasn't sure for other parts, so I will leave it to ErnestKrause. I wasn't sure what catergory I should put on the fork articles if there's any, so feel free to add them too Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:51, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
@Jasper Deng: With the new sub-articles now created by Figureskatingfan and Yolo4A4Lo, the further article trims were done this morning and are now ready for the next round of edit requests and updates needed for the GAN. The total page space reduction following the creation of the new sub-articles is at about 25KB. Let me know when your next pass for editing and updates is ready for the main article. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
@ErnestKrause: You do not need to ping me every single time, just so you know. The trimming that was done is not enough; 25 KB is only 10% of an originally-250 KB article.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
A further 26Kb trimmed last night, which is a total of about 50Kb trimmed. Is that closer to your target? ErnestKrause (talk) 01:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm hoping it can be reduced well below 200 KB, especially as his career is nowhere near done. 100 KB would be amazing. 150 is more realistic though.--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
I have trimmed it down to 179 KB. I hope that helps. By the way, the two new articles are still uncategorized. I wonder if anyone has suggestions what category I should put since there's no fork figure article to use as a reference. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 03:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
There's still more trimming to do. The 2017-18 section in particular should be cut back more in view of how we have a separate article. In terms of categories, I suggest creating Category:Yuzuru Hanyu and making a WP:Series on him.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:49, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
Yolo4A4Lo did the further trims last night after your comments above were made and she has added the new Category here [1]. The article appears to be ready for the next pass of edit and update requests when you have the time to do another read through. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

This still needs trimming: as per WP:SPLIT it should optimally have significantly less than 100 KB of readable prose, especially as the article will need continual expansion.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

I think we misunderstood the way of checking the size. The size of the page is indeed 175 KB, but there are only 45,314 characters of readable prose. According to WP:SIZERULE and WP:SIZESPLIT, that equates to 45 KB of readable prose which is still acceptable. For example, GA article Lewis Hamilton is even bigger in size, but the number of characters is indeed acceptable. CMIW Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 06:40, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Following the comment from Yolo4A4Lo, there appear to many current peer review articles that are significantly larger than the current Hanyu article. For example, the Ronald Reagan article is at 275Kb which is much larger in size, and the biography for Richard Nixon appears to be at 175KB which is close to the size of the Hanyu article. The size of the article appears to be within Wikipedia parameters for peer reviewed articles. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Readable prose is only 45 Kb, so there is no reason whatsoever to split the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Apologies for the radio silence; real life really got to me. @Yolo4A4Lo: When copying and pasting the rendered text, I still get near 100 KB. Maybe that's not the right interpretation of the definition of "readable" prose. @Hawkeye7: However, I strongly disagree that splitting was not justified. At the least, this skater remains highly active and his article must have room to expand as his career goes on. --Jasper Deng (talk) 06:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
I merely measured it with XTools which is the suggested step on both the articles about splitting and page size I mentioned above. About the navigational problems, I have tried my best with the sidebar navbox and category even though they don't look that much compared to other navbox. I haven't received any notice for deletion, but I'm not sure if the category meets WP:OCEPON. I also have handled the "misleading" summary mentioned above. I hope that will also help the navigation. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Article is well written and meets GA standards. However there are still a couple of issues requiring action.

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    Do not agree that it is too long.
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:


Issues with referencing
  1. "He won with a total margin of 37.48 points ahead of Javier Fernández, breaking the previous victory margin record held by Evgeni Plushenko in 2004 (35.1 points)." - reference required
    Addressed and added. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  2. "During the free skate despite a strong start, he again made an error in what was supposed to be a quadruple-triple combination. Hanyu then improvised his layout for the second half of the program, successfully changing three of his jumping passes into more difficult elements to maximize his score after the mistake. He placed first in the free skate with a score of 206.67 but overall finished second behind Nathan Chen by about four points." - reference required
    Addressed and added. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  3. World record scores section - references required here
    Addressed and added. Give me a day or two for the rest. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
  4. Programs - references required for 2004-2007
    Addressed and added. All sources are unfortunately printed. For the post cards, there are no official images but I've confirmed the name of programs are written on them. It's also used as reference on his Japanese Wikipedia page too. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 05:21, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
  5. Competitive highlights - references required for Team events
    Addressed and added. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
  6. Novice - reference required
    Addressed and added. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

All good then Passing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Yuzuru Hanyu Olympics seasons into Yuzuru Hanyu

No need to have a separate article for Olympic seasons Bbarmadillo (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@Bbarmadillo: The consensus above, as per WP:SPLIT (the article had far over the 100 KB of readable prose that the guideline suggested before the split), is to the contrary, so no. --Jasper Deng (talk) 05:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:23, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Finlandia Trophy

Why there was no gold medal from Finlandia Trophy in record awards section? Laluchan (talk) 20:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

do you mean the record table on the infobox (under his ISU personal best scores)? That table is only for ISU Championships series(Worlds, Europeans/Four Continents), Grand Prix Final, and Team Trophy. Finlandia Trophy is a part of Challenger Series, which is "lesser" in rank compared to the competitions I mentioned earlier. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

"The Greatest" or "one of the greatest men's singles skater"?

Resolved
 – Added "one of the greatest figure skaters in history" in the lead section per clear consensus, with sources mentioned below cited and explained in the article body. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 09:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm making this discussion based on admin's suggestion after an edit warring occurred. For context, when this article was brought to GA, in the lead it's written "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". Not long after that, an editor changed it into "regarded as one of" due to wordiness. However, for the past few weeks, there have been edits to change it into "regarded as the greatest" which made other editors questioning whether it adheres to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.

There are also other instances in the article on the topic, such as:
"Various media outlets and commentators have recognized Hanyu as the greatest skater in history,particularly after his second Olympic victory, for his consistency in results in a highly competitive field and ability to deliver under pressure" - under Skating Technique
"Hanyu is considered to be among the finest male figure skaters in the history of competitive figure skating and has been recognized by experts, media, and the general public for his outstanding skills and impact on the sport." - under Awards and Honors

Below are reliable sources that mention/talk about this topic and the exact quote:

  • "He is considered one of the greatest male figure skaters in history" — USA Today (Feb 2022)
  • "The 23-year-old — already known by some as the greatest figure skater ever" — Time (Feb, 2018)
  • "Yuzuru Hanyu, the reigning men’s Olympic figure skating champion and perhaps the greatest skater of any era." — The Greatest Figure Skater Ever Is Michael Jackson on Ice, Surrounded by Winnie the Poohs, The New York Times (Jan, 2018)
  • "For his competitive record and his contributions to a sport’s sinking popularity, he may indeed be the greatest." — Is two-time Olympic gold medalist Yuzuru Hanyu the greatest figure skater of all time?, The Washington Post (Feb, 2018)
  • "There is little question that Hanyu is the greatest men’s skater at least since Button. Another Olympic medal of any color would make a convincing argument that he is the GOAT, no matter how hard it is to compare across eras." — NBC Olympics (Jan, 2022)

Other sources and opinions:

  • "It means he has been one of, if not the greatest of all time," by Ted Barton, ISU commentator — Japan Forward (Feb, 2022)
  • "Hanyu is unquestionably the greatest men’s singles skater of at least the 70 years since [American] Dick Button, the previous man to win two straight Olympics," by Phil Hersh, long-time figure skating writer — Japan Forward (Feb, 2022)
  • "If you want him to be (the best skater in history), you wouldn’t be wrong,” Browning stated. “Why not. He’s everything. He’s the skater, he’s the jumper, but quintessentially, he’s the performer. He seems to have the superpower to take all the pressure, all the expectations and all the lights and all the cameras, and somehow he’s able to use it as a competitor," by Kurt Browning, 4-time World champion — The Japan Times (Feb, 2018)
  • "Yuzuru Hanyu has progressed the sport in ways that could never be imagined, he’s the greatest skater there has ever been and to follow him as Olympic champion is beyond my dreams," by Nathan Chen, 2022 Olympic champion — iNews UK (Feb, 2022)
  • "'I have to say, he is the greatest of all time. That’s for sure.' The words of Brian Orser resonate more than ever after Yuzuru Hanyu became the first man in 66 years to win the Olympic gold medal twice in a row." Brian Orser is Hanyu's coach and Olympic silver medalist. — The Japan Times (April, 2018)
  • "Some will argue that this Japanese wonder might be the greatest male singles skater ever to grace the ice." — Yardbarker (Feb, 2022)
  • "Yuzuru Hanyu is the greatest figure skater of all time" — USC Annenberg Media (Oct, 2019)

For the time being, the disputed statement has been hidden and I've invited several editors related to the edit warring and GA process of this article to give their opinions. Feel free to leave your own opinion by bolding the statement you think is more fit for Wikipedia. Hopefully we can achieve a consensus. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 15:34, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I cannot speak for everyone, because everyone has a different opinion. The truth is not every single person in the world is going to agree that Yuzuru Hanyu is the GOAT in figure skating.Every single person does not think that Simone Biles is the greatest, even if it's a widely regarded fact that she is the GOAT in gymnastics. Even though Yuzuru Hanyu has been considered the GOAT by many media sources, professional, and current peers int he is skating world, I do think it is important to be fair to other amazing skaters. Much like every sport, figure skating goes through evolution and changes in difficulty. One could argue that Plushenko is the greatest and it would not be an unpopular opinion. I think at the very least Yuzuru Hanyu should have "one of the greatest" rather than have nothing at all. He has achieved more in the sport compared to any other figure skater, so I think calling him one of the greats is something that he deserves. I personally think he is the greatest, but in order to be fair and maintain neutrality on Wikipedia, I think having "one of the greatest" would be appropriate at the very least. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Constance7070 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Thank you very much for inviting me to this discussion thread. I have been thinking about this issue lately as well and came to the conclusion: Since we have multiple reliable sources and quotes from skaters or other experts that explicitely name/regard him as "the greatest", I see no issue to write something along the lines "he's regarded as the greatest skater in history by various skaters and other experts". This is a stronger statement than "regarded as one of the greatest", yet it's factual and in accordance with the neutral POV. There is no generalization (it's only the opinion of 'some' skaters/experts, no universal agreement among all). That would be a good compromise, I think. Henni147 (talk) 16:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Since there are many sources saying that Hanyu is either one of the greatest or the actual greatest, in my opinion we should revert the statement to what it was originally. It works perfectly for the message that needs to be conveyed, which is that he's at least one of the greatest skaters, if not actually the greatest, and that this is a debated topic. Also, if we decided to use 'the greatest' because some articles say it, then many other skaters would also be entitled to be called 'the greatest', which obviously can't be correct. Since there is no universal opinion, I believe the orginal wording should be used: "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". Lcodyh803 (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I like that solution the most, too. It's a stronger statement than just "one of the greatest", yet it avoids the issue that other skaters would be entitled to be called 'the greatest' as well. I just thought that it's out of debate due to "wordiness". But if it's allowed, I would definitely go with that one. Henni147 (talk) 17:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
The current version of the "Skating technique" section states: 'The 2006 Olympic silver medalist Stephane Lambiel described him as "the most complete athlete in figure skating, probably ever."' Given the number of citations you presented above, then you could expand upon this in the "Skating technique" section of the article with another sentence or two. Otherwise, "regarded as one of (or among) the greatest figure skaters" seems a good version. ErnestKrause (talk) 17:22, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
I vote for ErnestKrause's version and suggestion, although I suggest that instead of using the word "regarded", that we use "has been called by many figure skating experts, commentators, and by the international popular press as..." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
@Figureskatingfan: I think that would be too long for the lead, and can be put added under the Skating Technique instead? The disputed part of the lead before edit warring was: "Widely regarded as one of the greatest figure skater in history for his well-rounded skills, achievements, popularity, and impact on the sport..." Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
The current version of the lead isn't overly long and it still needs to be as accurate as possible. It was just a suggetion anyway; my point was that I agree with ErnestKrause that the original wording should be used. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 02:19, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
I believe I was the person who originally added "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" to the lead section back in 2018 (correct me if I'm wrong). It was very quickly (I think on the same day...) changed to "regarded as one of, if not the greatest" by another user. I haven't kept up with the changes in this article since 2020 and I never expected this line would become a point of contention. I maintain that "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" would be the best option. It adheres to the NPOV guidelines and is succinct. 3a4t (talk) 14:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the invitation. IMO, I think we should revert to the original statement "regarded as one of, if not the greatest figure skater". I actually remember that I tried one time to do that but then it was changed again.
Although I can't say I am fully aware of the Wiki rules but since many of skaters and experts spoke or wrote this explicitly about him in many trusted and famous publications along the years, it is not actually an opinion of the Wiki writers but rather a take from many sources and while it may be regarded as strong statement but still it doesn't force that opinion on the reader. Also I think having it as "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" is rather generic and somehow takes away how much Yuzuru skills are evaluated by the sport's community/experts and his impact on the sport in general compared to other great skaters through the history of the sport. Apqaria (talk) 17:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @3a4t. I think "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters of in history" is not only more concise, but it's also an objective and indisputable claim. Adding "if not the greatest" feels redundant and makes the statement less decisive. Quadqualityc0ntr0l (talk) 14:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

My main issue with "regarded as one of the greatest figure skaters in history" is the following: "one of the greatest" is a pretty vague statement. Is he regarded to be among the two greatest skaters? Or ten or thirty? How many skaters are in the circle of candidates? The larger this circle is, the less of a weight or relevance this statement has. It feels a bit like a consolation prize, when experts don't come to an agreement. Sure, it's undisputable and neutral in wording, but it also raises new questions like
  • Who are the other skaters among the all-time greatest in (men's) figure skating?
  • What does Hanyu yet need to do to become the undisputed greatest?
That's why I personally prefer to either add "if not the greatest" or specify it as "regarded as the most complete figure skater" (like CBC moderator Scott Russell did) or skip this sentence entirely. At the moment I tend to go with the latter. As a skater with the most set world records, first back-to-back win of the Olympics in 66 years and first ever Super Slam in men's singles it's needless to say that Hanyu is "one of the greatest skaters in history". It's a pleonasm at this point that only triggers more edit wars in the future. Henni147 (talk) 08:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
If you read the references I put above and on the statement on the article, this article from Yardbarker names a good list of figure skaters considered as the greatest. From other attached references, figure skating experts mentioned Dick Button a lot. Since we're talking of "all times", of course Gillis Grafström would have to be considered as well. That answers your first question. Secondly, what makes someone an undisputed greatest? The thing is no one exactly sure what. Grafström is considered one for his three-time Olympic wins, Sonja Henie has been considered as the best figure skater, either from men's and women's singles, because on top of winning streak, she revolutionized artistry of the sport and was popular globally. Now, to be considered the greatest, they also have to do quads. And perhaps in the future, the skater has to do quints. It's ever changing. Who's considered the greatest now may not be considered the greatest in the future. Thus, I personally think we can't use "the greatest of all times" in the lead. As @Figureskatingfan suggested, we can put more details who have considered Hanyu as the greatest and when, but to put that on the lead which acts as a summary and it's not rare readers only read that and not the rest of article, it would be a misleading and biased. In the other hand, to not putting the sentence at all, it means we're ignoring what major publications and experts have been talking about for the last four years at least. And there will be a lot of readers who share the same opinion as @Constance7070 and will trigger more edit warring. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, my post was not clear in wording. The two questions I noted above were not addressed at this discussion round here. These are questions that people might have when reading "regarded as one of the greatest in history" in the lead section. If I was a casual reader with little knowledge about figure skating, I would ask myself these questions.
Since athletes of other sports have this sentence in their lead section as well, it's probably okay to include it, but I have my doubts that this will make an end to the edit warring. It may not require a page protection, but it won't stop. That's my guess.
Footnote: I fully agree about avoiding the terms "all times" or "ever", since we can't look into the future. But I think it's totally fine to talk about "(one of the) greatest in history". History is written and skaters can be compared to some extent, especially in the same discipline or judging system. Henni147 (talk) 12:25, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
I agree with @Yolo4A4Lo. Times change and in my opinion sobriquets like "GOAT" don't belong on Wikipedia. An encyclopedia shouldn't concern itself with deciding who is "the greatest" in whatever field of sport. There are no "candidates" for this title. However it would be good to write 'one of the greatest skaters in history' in the lead so that people who are not that familiar with figure skating can quickly get an idea of the scale of his achievements. I would argue the same about any truly outstanding athlete who has been called the GOAT by media and fans.
I'm also against adding something like "the most complete figure skater" - that's even more subjective than calling him the GOAT. Completeness doesn't equal greatness, and while one could argue that greatness is directly tied to quantifiable achievements, I wouldn't know how to easily explain "completeness" to a person unfamiliar with skating. 3a4t (talk) 12:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
@3a4t: From what I read in debates across different sports, you are considered a "complete" athlete if you have mastered the full spectrum of required technical skills (physical and cognitive) in your respective discipline. It's one of the five commonly used criteria to judge the overall "greatness" of an athlete. The other ones are the set of records and titles, the quality level of single technical skills, longevity and sometimes popularity as well. That's why I would say that "greatness" is more subjective than "completeness", since the latter is a part of the overall greatness.
Here is a quick explanation why completeness is a crucial criterion in Hanyu's case: Henni147 (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Extended content
The specialty about figure skating is that it requires a large set of very different skills: skating, drawing figures, jumping, spinning, carriage and dancing, music translation and program composition (plus lifting partners in pairs and dance). The weight of these skills in competition has changed a lot throughout the years and it also varies from discipline to discipline. There are many skaters who excel at three or four of these skills, maybe five, but it's unique to have a skater, who has the muscular power to jump multiple quads of a large trajectory, the flexibility to perform a doughnut or Biellmann spin, and the skating ability to perform a program without any consecutive crossovers (basic strokes to gain speed) - an achievement considered virtually impossible by John Misha Petkevich in 1989. And all that in one program without neglecting the other skills/quality aspects.
Patrick Chan had the ability to combine quads with outstanding skating skills, but had issues with spin positions that require flexibility in the back and shoulders. Valieva or Shcherbakova performed programs with quads and difficult spin variations, but needed many crossovers and other basic skating to accomplish this. Skaters like Jason Brown, Deniss Vasiljevs or Satoko Miyahara are known for their excellent spins and skating skills, but struggle to land quads. At least one of the three aspects is usually missing.
That's probably the reason why "completeness" is so commonly used by experts when referring to Hanyu. There are other skaters with better medal records, longer careers, maybe better quality in single skills as well, but Hanyu is that rare species of a skater who's able to combine big jumps, difficult spin variations and a ridiculously low amount of basic stroking in one program.
Henni147 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Again, as a long-time fan of skating, I am well aware why Hanyu can be considered "the most complete" or "the greatest". The fact that you felt compelled to post such an exhaustive explanation also proves my point that such language doesn't really belong in the lead section of an encyclopedic article. By referring to "completeness", we use criteria that are hardly quantifiable and are specific to whatever activity the individual in question participates in. By trying to prove "greatness", we usually refer to the number of medals won, records achieved etc. which are universally understandable measurements of success. Using these criteria, Hanyu is easily among the greatest athletes in the competitive history of his sport. I'm all for expanding the 'Skating technique' section to describe Hanyu's "completeness" in more detail, but the lead section should be kept neutral and succinct. To be fair, I like the lead section the way it is now, so skipping the sentence entirely could also be a good option. 3a4t (talk) 18:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
@3a4t: Yes, I agree that a concept like "completeness" requires too much additional explanation to be included in the lead (unless there will be an official scientific definition of that term based on quantifiable criteria in the future). Henni147 (talk) 06:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@Constance7070, Henni147, Lcodyh803, ErnestKrause, Figureskatingfan, Apqaria, and 3a4t: Thank you for everyone who has stated their opinion. Wikipedia suggested to open discussion for at least a week before determining the consensus, so this discussion will be opened for at least two more days. Just to add more perspective, I've looked up articles of other Greatest athletes, and statement "regarded as one of the greatest" has been used on big names such as Muhammad Ali, Roger Federer, LeBron James, Tiger Woods et al. Meanwhile, stronger statement "regarded as the greatest" has been used on Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, and Babe Ruth whom have been called so by their respective sport association. Regarding ErnestKrause's suggestion, whichever the consensus will be, the discussion among figure skating experts and media on Hanyu's greatness from the references attached above will be added to Skating Technique section, which I suggest to be expanded to Skating Technique and Artistry to elaborate his greatness better. (Feel free to contact me if you have materials regarding this) - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:56, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/04/sports/olympics/yuzuru-hanyu.html

Follow-up

@Constance7070, Henni147, Lcodyh803, ErnestKrause, Figureskatingfan, Apqaria, and 3a4t:: I'm sorry it took to long because there are many obstacles in my daily life, but as a follow-up to the discussion above, I have drafted the possible changes and expansion for the Lead, Skating Technique, and Accolades section on my sandbox. All changes and addition are italicized. I have found reliable sources for most of the additions, except for paragraph of his impact on quads evolution and his popularity. Feel free to copy edit the draft, add more relevant points, and discuss it here. Other editors who might not engaged in early discussion are welcome as well. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Yolo4A4Lo: First of all, thank you very much for your effort to create this draft! I really liked your additions in the lead and skating technique sections, and polished the latter a bit with sources and some small changes in wording. Some general notes:
Extended content

I know that commentators and journalists are often tempted to use the term "artistry" as a type of skill and the statement "X is able to combine technique and artistry", but in my opinion this shouldn't be used in an encyclopedic article. As a skater you can learn and master a spectrum of different technical skills (skating, jumping, spinning, carriage/dancing, music translation and program composition), and combine them to a harmonic unit. But "artistry" is not really a skill that you can learn or possess. You can leave with your performance an artistic impact, but this impact always depends on your audience that either sees an aesthetic or ideal value in the performance or not. This is something that you as a skater have no control over, no matter how refined and complete your spectrum of skills is. Hence, you cannot "combine" technique with artistry as such. Solid technique can lead to an artistic impact, if at all.
Personally, I prefer to avoid this vague term "artistry" altogether, even if it's commonly used (and abused) by the media. In this section, I would really focus on Hanyu's spectrum of technical skills only (which also includes music-related skills like program composition).

@Henni147: Thank you for your reply, but your whole explanation shows the misconception of "artistry". With Wikipedia is an encyclopedic space, we should refer to other encyclopedic source. Wikipedia itself defines the word as "significant artistic skill", while Cambridge dictionary defines it as "great skill in creating or performing something" and Vocabulary.com defines it as "a particular skill or flair for something, especially an artistic pursuit". So, it's tangible, and different from "artistic impact" which is intangible. If you check on Wikipedia, "artistry" is very commonly used as a section title for artists, such as Lana Del Rey, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson et al. The abuse of the word in figure skating scene doesn't make the word "invalid", especially when I know we all agree here that Hanyu has significant role in creating his art.
I think I should explain my idea behind this expansion. The general idea of Skating Technique and Artistry is to describe what Hanyu puts on the ice. The section only touched the technical side of his programs, so since he's very involved and philosophical in the creative process of them, a break down on his artistry is needed. Hpefully this section will answer questions "why is Hanyu said to have strong techniques?" "why do people call Hanyu an artist/artistic?" and ultimately, indirectly "why is considered as one of or the great?". So, instead of confusing people by using "artistry" as a jargon (like commentators do), I hope this section will show that it's a valid term for Hanyu because he does posses it. And as you can see, the section breaks down his artistry into his artistic image, genres he usually uses, most frequent themes in his programs, his most notable styles/interpretations, and his notable influences/idols (thus the part about Plushenko until the end of Early Life should be moved with adding information on the meaning of Origin). Using "Genre, styles, themes, influences" as section title is too long and "artistry" has covered them all, so why not use that? (and to address your last reply, "spectrum" implies there's a specific range or levels to which his technique and versatility are measured, so it's not quite right to represent what the section describes) Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Yolo4A4Lo: It's fine to use the term "artistry" by itself as a section title, as it's done in the MJ article. But I would strictly avoid term "combine" in the context of technique and artistry. This sounds as if these two were independent skills that can exist without each other, but you can't create any work of art without a technical basis. They are linked by default, there is no need to combine, merge or fuse them. Hanyu said himself in 2018: "That so-called balance between [technical] difficulty and artistry, to me that doesn't actually exist. Artistry is founded upon absolute technical prowess, that's what I think." I would place this quote from him right below the section title, as it perfectly captures his view on this topic. Henni147 (talk) 09:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Henni147: I think you need to understand that during the process of writing this article you can't see it from Hanyu's point of view because this is not his autobiography, except when it's about a part that describes his opinions or direct quotes. "Technique" or "technical skills" are different from "artistry". They are certain defined methods someone uses to create or present their art, while "artistry" is the the skill someone has to approach the process of their art. For example, a skater can be technically strong (their jumps technique are great, their skating skills are great etc), but their artistry is low because they're not really involved in the creation of the programs, in how they look during the performance etc. And actually Hanyu does recognized artistry and technique as two different things, but for him those two have to go along side-by-side.
If you notice, I have put the link for that quote under Accolades and Impact for the quads evolution paragraph. (I failed to find the reference in text form, maybe you can help) Because that part is talking about Hanyu's role in the quads evolution over the years, but we need to make it clear on his stance on the neverending debate on skating vs. jumps. The T&A section doesn't need it because we have established with the summary and quotes that he is advanced in both techniques and artistry. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Yolo4A4Lo: Sorry to be this picky, but my alarm bells are ringing if composition (creation process of the program), carriage (how the skaters "look" in their performance) and music translation are not listed under technical skills, which they ARE. Music editing, logical design of skating patterns and movements, placement and distribution of elements... the precise translation of timing, tempo, volume and pitch changes to body movements... this is all technical through and through (even measurable). If a skater is not perceived as an artist, in nearly all cases something is wrong with at least one or two technical skills. Either the composition technique is poor or the music translation or the carriage, posture, coordination or whatever. Often the skating and jumping skills are flawed too, even if they appear clean on the surface (which is the case with many quad jumpers).
What I'm asking for – first and foremost – is to NOT group skating, spinning and jumping as technical skills, and composition, music translation etc. as artistry. They all contain aspects of both, not either or. Henni147 (talk) 12:06, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Henni147: I have updated the draft to address your concerns regarding the choice of words, please check it. There's also no subsection under Skating Style and Artistry, so there's no need to clearly separate technique from artistry. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Yolo4A4Lo: Excellent! Thank you very much for your update! Yes, this is a very good solution. And I apologize for my pickiness. I just read so many times in skating discourses that skills like composition are not technical ("only" artistry), that somethings snaps everytime. Henni147 (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Hanyu's Biellmann and Doughnut spin are listed under "skating technique" in this section. But difficult spin positions are part of the spinning skills of a skater, not skating skills. So is the mastery of different jump types part of the jumping skills. I would make clear distinctions there and add under "skating skills" Hanyu's special feat to perform a clean short program without any consecutive crossovers at the 2021 All Japan Championships, adding the quote from John M. Petkevich's skating manual in 1989: "Without a doubt, crossovers are the staple of every skater. Not only are they used to negotiate corners, but they are also used to pick up speed. [...] Skating without crossovers would be virtually unthinkable."
I agree with your opinion on "skating technique", the section title will be changed to just Techniques and Artistry. I will add the information on his minimal crossovers. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Another note about spins: It's not really accurate to say that the doughnut and Biellmann position are more "prized" in women's skating. It's true that due to the mass of quads, spins have less weight in men's, but the spin elements as such have the same base value and GOE range in both disciplines. In the men's event you're even allowed to perform spins of higher value than in the women's event by the current rules. Men can do a spin with a change of foot in the short program, which has a higher BV than a spin in basic position (which is required in the women's SP). I would change "more prized in women's skating" to "more commonly seen in the women's singles event".
I actually got that word from an article from Time, but I don't mind the change. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
  • In the section about accolades and impact, I recognized that the second paragraph about jump firsts is a bit redundant to the paragraph under skating technique. I would try to combine the two and mention Hanyu's impact on the quad jump development in the technique section. Regarding his popularity in small figure skating nations we have fresh newspaper sources that mention his large impact on the fast ticket sales for live viewing events in Taiwan. We could use that and also sources that mention his popularity in Brazil and Turkey.
Since Technique and Artistry is about what he can do while Accolades and Impact is about the significance of what he has done, the jump firsts will be moved to Accolades and Impact while leaving what kind of quads he can do on Technique. Feel free to add in references on his popularity and impact outside the sport. That part is still a rough draft. I plan to finish and add other parts into the article first when they're ready, then add this part later so we can focus on it. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Yep. I had exactly the same idea today to put the arsenal of quads into the technique section and the jump firsts into the accolades section. You have my full support for this one ;) Henni147 (talk) 08:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
That's it from me at first glance. I will make more additions in both sections today. Henni147 (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Update: I decided to create a separate draft in my own sandbox, so that we can compare the different structures of the section. My draft is still in the making. I have added a paragraph about Hanyu's skating skills at the top, adjusted some wordings and switched the order of paragraphs. (I also formatted the citations, replacing dead links by proper new sources.) I try to complete the rest tomorrow or on Friday at the latest, so that we can properly discuss it. Henni147 (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
I have discussed this above, and I will add the necessary sources to my draft. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Template limit exceeded

@Yolo4A4Lo: I just realized that we have exceeded the total number of allowed templates on the page. I was informed that the easiest way to fix this issue is to clean up the citation section. This includes the

  • removal of citations with permanent dead links
  • grouping of ISU documents like Hanyu's bios pages, world standings and rankings to one source
  • reduction or grouping of sources that prove the same statement
  • replacement of multiple single sources by one new global source that covers the content of the others (Hanyu's career summary on nonno.hpplus.jp is a very good source that can be used for the career section)

This will require a lot of work, but I would volunteer to go through the entire page this weekend and clean up all sources. This is long overdue anyways. Henni147 (talk) 16:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Personal best scores (infobox)

I have taken a quick look at other skaters' biography articles, and there seems to be no consensus among authors regarding the choice of personal best scores for the infobox. On some pages, the PB of the latest +5/-5 GOE system are listed, on others like Javier Fernández' it is the career best score – in his case the PB scores achieved in the +3/-3 GOE system, which makes sense because those scores were much higher than his PB in the new system. Same goes for Hanyu who scored above 220 and 330 points in the +3/-3 system, but not in the +5/-5 system.

As a compromise, I listed his career bests in the infobox with a footnote mentioning his PB scores achieved in the new +5/-5 system. I hope that this is a reasonable solution that properly reflects Hanyu's score statistics, but is also in line with the guidelines for figure skating articles. Henni147 (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

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