Template:Did you know nominations/Aldus Manutius

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 12:25, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

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Aldus Manutius[edit]

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  • ... that Aldus Manutius commissioned typefaces resembling the handwriting of famous humanists of his time which became the first record of italic type? Source: New Aldine Studies, Harry George Fletcher III
    • ALT1:... that Aldus Manutius was one of the first publishers to publish manuscripts in their original Latin and Greek? Source: Aldus and His Dream Book, Helen Barolini

Improved to Good Article status by Gandhi (BYU) (talk). Self-nominated at 04:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC).

  • This is a newly promoted GA and is both long enough and nominated in the correct timeframe. The article is neutral and either hook could be used. Earwig brought up a high concern of copyright infringement but I traced the concerns to the use of a public domain source which is attributed in the article. NO QPQ needed as the nominator has fewer than five previous DYKs. Good to go. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:32, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I have struck ALT1 because I think the original hook is much better. However, I think a cite is needed after the sentence Manutius wanted typefaces designed to look like the handwriting of humanists both in Latin and Greek. Gandhi (BYU)? Gatoclass (talk) 10:21, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
    • I added an extra source to the sentence in question and to the DYK Nomination, Gatoclass & Cwmhiraeth. Let me know if there is anything else!Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Seems good to me so restoring the tick. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The article is littered with "citation needed" tags. What's that about? Yoninah (talk) 22:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Yoninah, this article is slowly becoming ready for FA. The Britannica source isn't reliable enough for FA but is fine for GA and DYK. Only one source on the page will eventually be changed and backed up with other sources. The rest have been changed to a different reference type. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 16:39, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the explanation. @BlueMoonset: can this go up on the main page with all these citation needed tags? Yoninah (talk) 18:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • No, I'm afraid not, Yoninah. If the current citations are adequate for a GA, then they should not require a "citation needed" tag, which is at best disruptive. (Only 11 of the 13 are tagged, which is nevertheless too many.) We can't put it on the main page with that kind of apparent problem. There is a problem with the citations anyway: they all go to an entry in the Notes section that says "Symonds 1911", but there is no reference for Symonds 1911, so they're effectively unreferenced. This definitely needs fixing. Although not relevant here, I personally find the Harvard reference style where the reference is in parentheses after the text in question to be far more distracting than the citation numbers, and greatly prefer the "sfn" template being used for the Symonds source (though it is, as noted, supposed to refer to an actual source in the reference section). If Encyclopedia Britannica is adequate for GA, then the "better source" and "obsolete source" templates would also seem to be inappropriate, so they shouldn't be used. Surely Gandhi (BYU) can keep track of where they want to supplement with FA-worthy sources without resorting to "citation needed" as an aide-mémoire. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:24, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • BlueMoonset and Yoninah, I have added the Symonds 1911 reference source to the page. Also, the citation needed templates are now removed. If there is anything else please let me know! Thank you. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @Gandhi (BYU): you are using several different citation styles and the result is most confusing. Please read Help:Shortened footnotes and do ALL the citations that way. Take the Symonds ref out of the "Notes" section and put it under "Sources". Then use the template {{sfn|Symonds|1911|p= }}, and similarly for other citations. See this page as an example. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 16:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Yoninah , these is not a required type of reference. The page has been changed so that all the citations are in Harvard citation style. There are no more sfn style references on Manutius' page. Thank you for reviewing! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 16:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Gandhi (BYU), thank you very much. I did a quick comparison of the article to the (public domain) Britannica source here, and as you can see there is significant enough copying in the article that an acknowledgement needs to be made. The {{EB1911}} template was in the article until very recently, but was removed. It shouldn't have been. At the moment, there's both copying and very close paraphrasing of Britannica, all of which can be addressed by reincorporating the template. Without the acknowledgement, this fails the DYK guidelines (and the GA ones as well); the template was present at the time that this was made a GA, and it needs to remain until such time as all material from Britannica has been completely and carefully replaced. That's going to take a great deal of work. You'll want to check at FAC to see whether it is the case that all Britannica material must be removed, or if it can be reused. Better (secondary) sourcing is apparently needed at the FA level, but the Britannica prose may be fine in small doses. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
  • BlueMoonset, so all I need to do is add back the template? Do you know the appropriate place on the page for the template? Thanks Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 17:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I figured it out. Thank you, BlueMoonset and Yoninah.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Great. I see now how the Harvard refs work. But sometimes you have "Fletcher III 1988" without any page numbers; can you supply those? Also, in the section "References to Aldus Manutius", many of the parenthetical links at the end of the lines don't go anywhere, neither to a citation or a Wikipedia page. And the last line about the vanity publisher needs a cite for DYK. Finally, under "Publications", do you have a cite for this list? (I'm referring to Rule D2). Yoninah (talk) 20:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Yoninah, I have addressed your concerns with the page. Also, I will add detail to Fletcher's in-line citations but that is not a requirement for DYK. Thank you for looking over this page. If there are any other concerns I am happy to address them. Also, please ping me when you respond. Thank you Yoninah and BlueMoonset for working to make this page better. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:20, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Are you happy with the article now? If so, could you please restore the tick? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:15, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
@Gandhi (BYU): I don't understand your comment about references. We are promoting articles to the main page; they should conform with all Wikipedia rules of grammar, referencing, etc. Thank you for adding page numbers to most of the "Fletcher III 1988" cites. Is that all you can do for now? Yoninah (talk) 20:31, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
@Yoninah: I've added page numbers to every Fletcher III 1988 reference except 1. Currently looking for the remaining Fletcher source without a page number. Is there anything else that needs to be addressed? Also @Cwmhiraeth:, thank you for following up! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I'm approving this nomination and you can add the page number when you have it. I suggest a slight rewording of the end of the hook, the way it's written in the article:
  • ALT0a: ... that Aldus Manutius commissioned typefaces resembling the handwriting of famous humanists of his day, which became the first known model of italic type?
  • Rest of review per Cwmhiraeth. ALT0a good to go. Yoninah (talk) 18:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
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