Template:Did you know nominations/Caspar Richter

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 23:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

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Caspar Richter

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Moved to mainspace by Thriley (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Thriley (talk) at 21:17, 27 January 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Caspar Richter; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

  • A nice little article but with some issues. It was obviously written by someone who does not speak English as their first language, and I cleaned up the prose somewhat. The opening section needs clarity over when things occurred (specific dates would be best, but even something more generic like "in his youth he studied...") There's nothing in the article to indicate how old he was and at what point in his life he was studying piano, working as a bar pianist, and studying in Hamburg (was he 10, 20 30, 40 y.o?) Also, the use of the German word Knabenkantorei is not clear to me; although I gather it is some type of choir. If it's a proper name of a specific ensemble that should be clarified. If it's a German word for a type of choir (a church choir?) then it would probably be better to describe the choir using English words only and remove the word Knabenkantorei entirely per WP:MOS. Other things that need fixing: the awards section lacks citations, no place of death is given, and most pressingly the use of the Friedrich Gulda School of Music website source (see here) is not appropriate. This is a self published non-independent source without an attributed author and should not be used as a reference as it can not be considered reliable (we would at least need an attributed author to determine if it was written by a subject matter expert in order to use a source like this per WP:SELFPUBLISHED). I would think there would be other news sources for much of this same content that could be located in independent secondary sources. I have placed tags where there are issues. Otherwise, the article is new enough, long enough, within policy, and the hook fact and length is verified. Once these issues are fixed please ping me.4meter4 (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
    4meter4, I can't fix all - vacation - but found better sources:
    The article is basically a translation from German, with the normal issues. I guess we can forget already the original intention to have a DYK on his day of death, and may take some more time to improve. I'll be away and of limited use for another week. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:51, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
These look like better refs. I understand that you need time. Ping me when updates have been completed. Enjoy your vacation Gerda.4meter4 (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I still didn't have extra time. Subjects died, Seiji Ozawa ... - Thriley, can you add some of the above sources to the article? APA or Der Standard recommended if only one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:17, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
No problem at all Gerda! I’ll tend to it soon. Thriley (talk) 22:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
I had a few free minutes, and added two more sources which led to more details. Sadly, not for those early details yet. I think we might - in the hook - not list so many German titles, but at least one of the prominent English ones of which he gave the German premiere. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

4meter4, I added a few more sources and facts, and believe that it may be enough for DYK purposes. Unfortunately I have no answer to the "when?" questions. We see him at school in Lübeck and studying in Hamburg. None of the sources even gives a precise year for when he began to study. We just know that school + studies add to 25 years which is pretty normal. Everything until playing piano for dancing on weekends was during school. The more I read about him the less I'm inclined to leave him in a musical corner alone.

ALT1: ... that Caspar Richter conducted opera premieres at the Deutsche Oper Berlin, and in Vienna new musicals such as Elisabeth and the German premiere of Les Misérables?

There's more in ref Kähler about a symphony orchestra in Brünn and a festival, both after retirement, if wanted. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Understood. I notice that the Friedrich School of Music website source is still used. It needs to be removed as a citation entirely because it has no attributed author and is self published. I won't review again until that is done.4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Understood your point of view. I made it an external link, if only for good images of him teaching. None of the sources says where he died. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt It looks like you have addressed the main issues. I prefer the original hook which can be verified to "Einstiger VBW-Musikdirektor Caspar Richter gestorben: Der Dirigent, der den Stil der Wiener Musicals maßgeblich prägte, wurde 78 Jahre alt". Kurier. 3 February 2023. It looks like much of the text from the Friedrich School of Music website source was taken from this published newspaper obituary. I would suggest adding it with inline citations into the article so I can tick off the original hook which I think reads better than the alt hook. A newspaper article would of course be useable as RS.4meter4 (talk) 16:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I am not 100% sure that I understand what you want. Do want me to add this translation as ref to the article? (I haven't done that ever, always used the original language.) Don't you think the present newspapers support the same thing? - What I don't like in the original hook is the load of German words: the name of the organization + four (probably unknown) musical titles. I believe it would read better with just two of the titles (Elisabeth! and Mozart) and without the lengthy organization name. Several sources say how unusual it is that he - after all this classical training - turned so intensely to musical, the "light muse", and without mentioning the classical training, that contrast/versatility gets lost. What do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:27, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt, the original source provided above for the original hook was not usable and it was unclear to me that the other sources verified the text as they are behind paywalls. Some of the text for that hook lacks incline citations directly after those facts. For example, it's not clear to me what is verifying "Freudiana in 1990, Elisabeth, Mozart!, Wake Up in 2002 and Rebecca," given the many citations after individual works in that sentence and the compound construction of the sentence. The Der Standard article is behind a paywall, and because of the compound sentence structure it looks like that citation is only verifying A Chorus Line. I therefore took it upon myself to find a usable source for the original hook, which I did to help the hook get approved.
As for the alt hook, I think it reads awkwardly and that there are too many facts trying to be crammed into one hook (at least when organized with that sentence structure). I liked the original hook because it was more focused and easier to read. Feel free to suggest a different wording of the alt hook, but I'm not going to approve a hook with awkward wording.4meter4 (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The Standard text is "Richter gründete 1987 das VBW-Orchester für das Theater an der Wien, Raimund Theater und Ronacher und habe den Musikstil der VBW-Musicals über zwei Jahrzehnte maßgeblich geprägt, hieß es in einer Aussendung. - Viele VBW-Uraufführungen wie u.a. "Freudiana", "Elisabeth", "Mozart!", "Rebecca", "Wake Up" sowie zahlreiche deutschsprachige Erstaufführungen wie u.a. "A Chorus Line", "Les Misérables", "Das Phantom der Oper" oder "Romeo & Julia" wurden unter seiner musikalischen Leitung in den Häusern der Vereinigten Bühnen umgesetzt." which my translation program gives as "Richter founded the VBW orchestra for the Theater an der Wien, Raimund Theatre and Ronacher in 1987 and had a decisive influence on the musical style of VBW musicals for over two decades, according to a press release. - Many VBW premieres such as "Freudiana", "Elisabeth", "Mozart!", "Rebecca", "Wake Up" and numerous German-language premieres such as "A Chorus Line", "Les Misérables", "The Phantom of the Opera" and "Romeo & Juliet" were realised under his musical direction at the Vereinigte Bühnen theatres." I believe that it supports the original hook, and duplicated it in the article, - hope that helps. Both papers seem to rely on the same press release of the Vereingte Bühnen, so no wonder they focus on the Vereinigte Bühnen. I am sorry that my language is not sufficient to do justice to his many talents.
ALT0a: ... that Caspar Richter co-founded an orchestra in Vienna and conducted it in new musicals including Elisabeth and Mozart!?
Thriley, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I added an inline citation for the original hook. Approving both ALT0a and the original hook. I will leave it to the promoter to decide which of these two choices is best. Good work Gerda and Thriley.4meter4 (talk) 23:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Thank you! Thriley (talk) 12:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
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