Template:Did you know nominations/Cornelia Chase Brant

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 05:43, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

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Cornelia Chase Brant

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Cornelia Chase Brant when she was dean of her college
Cornelia Chase Brant when she was dean of her college
  • ... that Nellie Chase (pictured) dreamed of becoming a doctor and did not go to medical college until she was 35 but rose to become its head?

5x expanded by Andrew Davidson (talk). Self-nominated at 10:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC).

  • Article looks good and well sourced, eligible for DYK. However, I think the hook might need some work: it would be helpful to name her institution (New York Medical College and Hospital for Women), as well as make it more clear that she became the dean at the same college she studied at, because the phrases "go to medical college" and "rose to become its head" are very vague. I'm also not sure whether it would be accurate to call her "its head"; it says in the article that she became dean of the college, which may or may not be the title for the head of the college, but it is not clarified in any of the sources as to whether this is the case. Otherwise, I think this article is ready for DYK.alphalfalfa(talk) 04:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Nominator has not responded to the concerns raised above despite a talk page notification and activity elsewhere. If they are able to respond after this comment, the nomination can continue, but otherwise this is marked for closure Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:50, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
  • I have been quite busy lately. Here's responses to the points made above:
  1. I don't agree that we should add the full name of the college to the hook as it is 8 words and this seems too wordy for a hook which is already quite lengthy.
  2. Saying that she was the head of the college seems clearer than saying that she was Dean, as the latter is a specialist rank whose status will be less familiar to our general readership
  3. Her position as the head appears in the article in the paragraph starting "Brant became dean of the school in 1914. In 1915, as leader of the college..." which is supported by The Evening World "Woman Head of Women's Medical College...".
I'll make another pass through the article to sharpen up this detail.
Please take another look. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:43, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Not a review but I do think the hook as-written needs work. Propose ALT1: ... that although she did not start college until the age of 35, Nellie Chase (pictured) eventually became the institution's head? Kingsif (talk) 05:35, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
It probably needs a link to the institution in question. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:38, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Right now there are also other issues. The entire first paragraph of the Early life section is unreferenced, there's a citation needed tag in one statement, and the fact about her becoming dean is lacking a footnote. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
I cleaned up the article before and have done so again so that it is free of tags and all paragraphs are cited. I shall keep a closer watch on it to maintain and develop it further but it's a busy time with Wikimania and the 20th anniversary. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:27, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, please check to see whether the issues you had have been addressed. I've made a few edits to the article; I can find sources identifying her as "dean" but not "head", so that has been changed. My feeling is that a link to the institution in question would not be helpful, but if people want to go there, they can from Nellie's article. Finally, I've struck both hooks, though I've based ALT2 on ALT1: that it's medical college is more interesting than the unidentified college, and while lots of people start late, it's especially impressive if it's a woman, medical college, and back in 1898.
  • ALT2: ... that although she did not start medical college until the age of 35 in 1898, Nellie Chase (pictured) eventually became the institution's dean? —BlueMoonset (talk) 03:49, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
I don't know, the wording sounds strange. "Starting medical college" is kind of vague and could simply mean "studying at a medical college" rather than studying at a specific one, and the "institution" wording is very vague and doesn't easily clarify that the point is that she became the head of the college she studied at. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
one shot try to clear this nom which is stuck for no good reason (IMO)? Victuallers (talk) 07:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
  • As stated above, her role as the head of the college is supported by The Evening World "Woman Head of Women's Medical College...". The thing to understand is that this was quite a small institution and the Dean was the top executive. People seem confused because larger American universities now commonly have an executive President but this was not the case with this medical college. To avoid this confusion, it seems best to describe her as the head -- the person who was in charge. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:09, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
That was my "last alt" .... I cannot gather the energy to argue the difference between the head of something and the person who leads it. If the difference in meaning was larger I still wouldn't. My alt was intended to unlock this long standing nomination. Victuallers (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
Alright, let me give it a try. Would any of these work?
  • ALT1A: ...that Cornelia Chase Brant started medical training after persuading her husband to let her, and she later became dean of the New York Medical College and Hospital for Women?
  • ALT2A: ...that Cornelia Chase Brant, dean of the New York Medical College and Hospital for Women, didn't start medical training until her youngest child was seven?
  • ALT3A: ...that Cornelia Chase Brant, dean of the New York Medical College and Hospital for Women, didn't start medical training until her husband persuaded her? Epicgenius (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Epicgenius, I thought the article said that she persuaded her husband to let her, not that he persuaded her to do it... BlueMoonset (talk) 01:52, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
@Andrew Davidson: any of those alts work for you? You're the nominator at the moment theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 08:39, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
  • These ALTs are all variations on the original hook, making the point that she trained as a doctor as a mature student and rose to become the head of her college. The difference is the details. I still prefer the original for the following reasons:
  1. The name of the subject is given as "Nellie Chase". This was her name as a girl when, per her notable biography Dream Within Her Hand, she dreamed of becoming a doctor. The name is short and girlish which tries to convey this early phase of her life.
  2. The college is not named and linked because it is not the subject and the purpose of the hook is to focus attention on the subject, not other topics. The name is also lengthy and not easy to parse and digest at a quick glance
  3. The word head rather than dean is used as discussed above – to emphasise that this was the .top executive position – that from a late start she rose to the top.
I am attending an online Women in Red editathon today and will give the article some more thought and attention then. More anon.
Andrew🐉(talk) 09:07, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
The issue here Andrew was never the hook fact, it was the hook wording. And not mentioning or at least linking to the college in this case has led to very vague hook proposals that don't really read well. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
  • If no agreement can be reached on a hook, unfortunately the nomination will be marked for closure as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:20, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Given that no consensus has been reached on a hook wording (other than there being loose consensus against the original hook proposals), it appears that the nomination has reached a point where it can no longer move forward. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:55, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
  • ALT4:... that Cornelia Chase Brant (pictured) was one of the first women to be appointed to the staff of a public hospital in New York City? Source: "she was said to have been one of the first three women named to a public hospital staff hospital in the city. They were appointed at the same time, in 1916". "Cornelia Brant, a physician, dies", New York Times, p. 36, March 10, 1959
Would nom be willing at all to be lenient on hook wording? Seems a pity to lose a chance for the front page. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 14:07, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@Rotideypoc41352: ALT4 is fine by me – thanks for the suggestion. I've expanded and cleaned up the article some more so we may be good to go. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@Andrew Davidson: who's the reviewer, and can we haul them back here?
The original reviewer was Alphalfalfa, but they haven't edited since July. I've started a follow-up review of the article, but finishing it was dependent on an agreeable hook being proposed. As ALT4 has now been proposed, the review can now continue, which I expect to complete later today. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Just re-checked the article and it meets requirements of length and newness. ALT4 is mentioned and cited inline, assuming good faith on the offline NYT source. If none of the commenters in this nomination have any remaining issues this will be good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
That sounds good to me. Though I believe Andrew said he preferred the subject to be referred to as "Nellie Chase". I think we should modify ALT4 to reflect that: ALT4A:... that Nellie Chase (pictured) was one of the first women to be appointed to the staff of a public hospital in New York City? Epicgenius (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Nellie Chase was her maiden name and appropriate for when she was a young girl dreaming of becoming a doctor. But when she was appointed to the Cumberland hospital she was married and the source uses her then name of Cornelia Chase Brant. So, ALT4 is fine with that. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:04, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
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