Template:Did you know nominations/Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:04, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

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Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus

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  • Reviewed: Deep biosphere
  • Comment: It's a spirit of praise and thanks suitable for Thanksgiving 28 November if such a thing is wanted, - sorry I was busy, no problem any other day. Cute that an astronomer writes about the sky shouting in praise, but I can't word that. Help?

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 21:34, 24 November 2019 (UTC).

  • Reviewing: Nominated and created in time and big enough. It is referenced and there is no copyright infringement detected. Hook is short enough. A QPQ review was done, but was a bit minimal in statements of compliance. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:33, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for reviewing. When I find things wrong in a reviewed article, I can be quite lengthy, but here, things were fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Continuing about the hook: Did Albert Curtz actually write the hymn called Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus? The page says he wrote a hymn but does not give a name, and says the song was written in 1930s. So I am confused. We missed the American Thanksgiving holiday. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:41, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, the most official source says "Adolf Lohmann nach Albert Curtz, 1659 nach Ps 19", so not even giving a year for Lohmann but Curtz. I'd like to see a source saying what exactly Curtz wrote and what Lohmann modified or not, but haven't found one. We could drop the astronomer part altogether but I think it's a cute thing to say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
I found this but don't read French. Also this, song title used as title for an event of church music. It seems that Lohmann did no more than adapting the older language, but I couldn't find a source saying that explicitly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Well that France page seems to confirm. However it cites Wikipedia for a source, so we have WP:Circular in operation. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Graeme Bartlett, where does this review stand? There still isn't an icon, which would seem to indicate that you're not done checking all the criteria. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
I am still awaiting either a reference that supports the hook, or a new hook. The French reference lifted its information off another Wikipedia article, so it is an unsuitable circular reference. I add the template to show it is still awaiting nominator improvements. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I was busy elsewhere. This also mentions Curtz as the author. This does not even mention Lohmann. Carus the same. The official version (Gotteslob) is Lohmann after Curtz after Psalm 19, and others - Wikipedia or else - make of that what they want. Regarding ALT1: I don't think that in this case the translation helps much, because people know Psalm 19, or look it up, or perhaps won't care. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Alt 1 ... that the 1938 work based on Psalm 19, "Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus" (The sky shouts your praise, Lord), is an adaption of a 1659 hymn written by a Jesuit astronomer? "Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus". Key: D major. Language: German. Text: Curtz, Albert. Text: Albert Curtz.
  • - @Graeme Bartlett: How does the sourced Alt 1 look to you? --evrik (talk) 20:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
  • In relation to alt 1 the article says that Adolf Lohmann wrote Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus. Albert Curtz wrote something, but we don't know from the article what it was called, or even if it was in German. (perhaps it was Latin) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:05, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Do you intentional say "work" - wide open, could even be a book or a painting. As above: I don't think the translation helps much, and 1938 seems misleading, - sources mention 1659 for the words and 1669 for the melody. My wide guess is that Lohmann didn't much more than making the language a bit more digestible to readers almost 300 years later. The time to write hymns in Latin, though, was long past in the 17th century. Kirchenlied was a very important hymnal, - why not mention it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:12, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
@Evrik: I like ALTs 1 and 1a, but the article's lead says that the subject is a paraphrase and doesn't exactly use the word "adaptation". Also, if there's still concerns about the year of the earlier work, would it be possible to simply omit it? An astronomer writing a song sounds interesting by itself if you ask me. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 05:27, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5, here's an ALT1b that I think addresses your concerns with Alt 1a and Gerda Arendt's concerns about using "work", while retaining the fact that the astronomer was writing a very long time ago (182 characters):
That sounds good. However, I'm not sure why the hook mentions Psalm 19 first instead of Dein Lob; I was thinking that the hook should go something like "that Dein Lob, Her, ruft der Himmel aus, a 1938 hymn based on Psalm 19...". Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:36, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer, but it doesn't work. The 1659 hymn is a paraphrase of Psalm 19. We don't know exactly what Lohmann did, therefore I wouldn't call it a 1938 hymn (rather a 1659 hymn if at all), nor describe his changes as paraphraseing, - could be that he just modernized the language a bit. - The only reason to mention 1938 is to mention Kirchenlied, published in opposition to the Nazis, and being No. 1 there means something, - the year alone will not provide that connection, I'm afraid. Probably repating: that relevance seems more interesting than a ranslation of something as familiar as Psalm 19. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:42, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
  • If no hook is agreed upon soon, we should close this as a not pass. --evrik (talk) 08:21, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
    I don't know whyt makes you so impatient. People are busy these days, including myself. I nominated Peter Schreier for In the news, and nothing happens. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:04, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Impatient, no. Gerda, please respect our time and effort. You have a habit dragging the hook conversations out way longer than they should last. --evrik (talk) 00:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Or maybe we can try a different direction here? ALT1c sounds like a really good compromise and I'm not really sure why there's opposition to it. If there's opposition to the word "paraphrase" then what word should be used? "Based on"? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 05:29, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
I have a habit of not wanting misleading hooks, and it's the 1659 hymn which paraphases, and if Lohman paraphrased at all we don't know. (How many times did I say that in this thread? - No time to count.) Also: no rush, because another piece based on Psalm 19 will hopefully appear on 1 January. I try to work with the mterial:
ALT1d: ... that the 1938 hymn "Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus" (The sky shouts your praise, Lord), is based on a text by a 17th-century Jesuit astronomer paraphrasing Psalm 19?
ALT1e: ... that the number 1 in the 1938 hymnal Kirchenlied is "Dein Lob, Herr, ruft der Himmel aus" (The sky shouts your praise, Lord), based on a text by a 17th-century Jesuit astronomer paraphrasing Psalm 19? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:54, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The thing here is that it was the article that uses the "paraphrasing" article. If the term "paraphrasing" is indeed inaccurate, then the article needs to be revised accordingly as well. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
The "thing" was not in the body, only in the lead, but I changed the lead also now. I learned that we should avoid the same wording in body and lead, but found a still different word (I hope). Nothing wrong, if you notice such a thing, in making the change yourself, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm willing to review this, starting within a few days. starship.paint (talk) 00:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Here are the issues, apologies if I missed these in German text. starship.paint (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

  1. wrote ... in the 1930s. - source?
  2. Jesuit astronomer - source?
  3. The Lebensraum Psalmen source is a Wordpress blog.
  4. In the first common Catholic hymnal, the 1975 Gotteslob, the song appeared as GL 263. - source?
  5. The last thought is confidence in redemption in all need - seems a bit unclear to me.
  6. Aren't the two Gotteslob sources the same? I'm not sure whether the source states The melody is in a triple meter, alternating regularly half notes and quarter notes. It begins with an upward fanfare, but the second half remains quieter
  7. The song was set to music in several choral versions. - is this sourced?
  8. Published 1938 - source?

@Gerda Arendt:, will need you to clear up the above first. starship.paint (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for looking, - busy day for me today, patience please. One fast thing: The two Gotteslob are the two printed books, 1975 and 2013, in which you see things. With time, I will bring the old melody here in notes, but the new one is under copyright, so the description will have to do. Such things are like saying some dress is red in a book illustration, - you don't need an extra source for that. The 1975 book was on my desk to do it, but left in clean-up, because ... busy day, guests. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
ps: cute that you are the reviewer, with star in your name ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:26, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Looking now. I numbered you concerns, for easier response.
  1. I dropped it, but think some initial timeframe would be helpful for the reader. Any suggestions?
  2. I added a ref
  3. I added another ref to the same fact
  4. As said above. the book is the ref, and has the number, but I added another one
  5. translation problem? - "Not" emergency? distress? - "need" was perhaps too simple?
  6. As before, the source is the book in which you see the melody
  7. not yet [1] [2] [3] [4] ... - I don't know what to do, all short pieces by not too notable composers. The sentence is a summary. This could be used for the desccription of the melody.
  8. Kirchenlied was published that year. It's in ref Linner on page 45. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:02, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Patience, no problem, Gerda Arendt. An astute observation, Gerda, perhaps I was sent by the heavens. starship.paint (talk) 04:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

  1. suggestions... find a source? =P
  2. done
  3. done
  4. done
  5. "The last thought is confidence in redemption for all who are in distress" - does this work?
  6. done
  7. Shall we just keep the melody part then (removing the other part)? With the new source.
  8. done - I can't read pg 45, but I'll accept this on good faith. starship.paint (talk) 04:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt ^ when you are free :) starship.paint (talk) 09:43, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
After having seen telescopes today, I can report that I added the Kiefer chorale settings as an example, used "distress", but could sadly not - not even with these telescopes - find a ref for exactly when Lohmann wrote what he wrote. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:28, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Good work Gerda Arendt :) For 5, can we use "The last thought is confidence in redemption from all distress"? Would that work?
Once this is settled, we can go with ALT1d, short enough and interesting. Article is new enough, long enough, within policy. I don't read German, so Gerda, I trust that your reading of the sources is accurate on the hook's accuracy. starship.paint (talk) 11:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I used "from" but it's not a translation of "in", and slightly changes the meaning, making it sound as if the distress ended. - Well, I'd like to mention Kirchenlied, this soft protest againat the Nazis, this being Number 1. (If not 1, I'd just say we mention Kirchenlied for the next one. But we have this line of tradition from psalm over scientist's phrasing of it to first ecumenical hymnal, almost like a program.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:13, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, I don't want to add inaccuracies. Does "in all distress" mean that … God will help you in your distresses, but not necessarily end all the distresses? starship.paint (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
ALT1e seems a bit too long - not only that, it has too many tidbits of information, in my opinion. May I suggest: starship.paint (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Sure you may propose but then you'd miss the key quirky thing that the astronomer paraphrased the line about the sky. Or heavens? I'd be happier without a translation in the hook which can't do justice to the German "Himmel" being the same for both, but this poet stresses blue abd filled with light, so sky. Back to the original hook, that is. - Go ahead, approve ALT1d ;) - "in aller Not" means "in all kind of distress", the other would be (I think) "aus aller Not" - out of all distress, a phrase used in the carol "Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Changed to The last thought is confidence in redemption in all kinds of distress. starship.paint (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
- all issues settled. Well done Gerda Arendt Approve ALT1d, which is re-pasted below. starship.paint (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
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