Template:Did you know nominations/Dulje

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 16:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Dulje[edit]

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  • ... that one can see almost the whole of Metohija (1,290 sq mi) from the heights of Dulje?

Created/expanded by Zoupan (talk). Self nom at 07:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

  • I disagree. Radovanovic is not cited in the article. Nusic's involvement in the Black Hand does not discredit him as a source, his work on Kosovo (which Dulje is situated in) is cited by Oliver Schmitt (professor of South-East European history) and Robert Elsie (an expert in Albanian studies, Kosovo region), and Todor Stankovic (quoted above) is a primary source (he wrote a diary of his 27 years travelling southern Sebria, Kosovo, Macedonia). In what way is the officer's account unreliable? I will add Nusic original publication year.--Zoupan (talk) 10:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

ZjarriRrethues, what facts in the article are you having neutrality doubts about? I do not think a person's allegiance makes much of a difference when all they're stating is "one can almost see the whole of Metohija (1,290 sq mi) from the heights of Dulje", for example. I do not think facts like these are much influenced by personal allegiance and history, so I am interested in what part of the article has raised your neutrality concerns. If it is only the rather apocryphal and hard-to-believe "innkeeper burnt trees" bit, then it can easily be (and correctly should be) rephrased to reflect who reported it so that readers can judge for themselves, or it can be removed straight away. I have some concerns of my own though:

  • "According to Serb scholars the village was inhabited solely by Serbs, the Albanian families came from Malesia, northern Albania, in more recent times." When was it inhabited by Serbs and when did the Albanians come? This may have been from the Middle Ages to the 19th century... as it stands, it is misleading and useless.
  • "Dulje, as all villages of Drenica, were inhabited by Serbs, as evident in data from the Devič monastery." Again, what timeframe does the data cover? This is a very important marker that should not be left out.
  • "In 1910, there were 6 Serb families." This implies either that there were no Albanians at the time (unlikely given the previous figure) or that there is no data. Please specify.
  • Remove the stub tag.
 — Toдor Boжinov — 14:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The demographic data are particularly doubtful (Albanianized etc.) and which is this unspecified period during which the village lost its Serbian character? That being there are inconsistencies: according to the same Serbian sources there were 26 Albanian families and 4 Serbian in the 1870s and in the early 1910s just 6 Serbian. Either the sources are wrong and shouldn't be used or something that should be mentioned at least briefly in contemporary sources, but isn't mentioned at all happened. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Alright. I too share these concerns and I'm expecting Zoupan's response. — Toдor Boжinov — 21:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
The source does not mention when exactly the Albanians did immigrate, regarding this village, but it is most likely in the 17th or 18th century (Great Serb Migrations) - as being the case with some of the neighbouring villages. The Devic data is from "200 years and more". The source only gives "6 Serb families" in 1910, possibly there were no data for the Albanian families or something had happened (I don't know). Hope this will clarify. --Zoupan (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Length, reference and history verified. Questions from above are answered. Good to go. --WhiteWriterspeaks 22:16, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
You can't just pass a nomination especially when the users that have pointed out problems haven't received any answer. All Zoupan did was to mention his view about the issue as he said that the sources provide no answers.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, i reviewed it, and i finds no serious problems. Hook mentioned only the view over whole of Metohija, so the rest of the data are sourced and at the end non problematic, and very non controversial. --WhiteWriterspeaks 23:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)On DYK when two users express concerns, the nom must address those issues, not to mention that there's a cn tag. On DYK the closing admin doesn't just pick the most favorable review when there are unaddressed issues. Btw articles with cn tags etc. can't be promoted, so please read the criteria before reviewing DYK noms.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:49, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The sources and their wording are very misleading and like Todor said it's better to remove them altogether.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 02:05, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Bozho, I have fixed your concerns. Zjarri, the CN-tag was removed as it had no basis; see the talk page for the citation in the original (Serbian, which was directly translated). Gaius, none of the data is misleading, the only "flaw" is that [Stamenkovic, p. 115] does not have data for the Albanian inhabitants when he mentions the demographics in 1910 - which is now adressed in the article. --Zoupan (talk) 05:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
You didn't add sources, you removed the necessary attribution that all the info is based on Serbian sources and you also added your OR (most likely in the 18th century).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 06:24, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
I do not agree with "According to Serbian sources" being a necessary attribution as it gives the notion that there is a "Serbian side", even though there aren't any sources that adress Dulje's history as being different from what is seen in the current sourced article. I added "most likely in the 18th century" based on the data in the article, according to Bozho's concerns. --Zoupan (talk) 07:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Is now everything ok? Can we let this go now? --WhiteWriterspeaks 11:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

(unindent)Further comments that reinforced Todor's concerns and mine were expressed.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:44, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

This hook can be used in DYK without resolving all controversies; Wikipedia does not need to wait for resolution of international disagreements over Kosovo. In reviewing the article (and editing it a little), I uncovered a significant concern regarding citations and the hook fact. The citations to books by Branislav Đ Nušić give the dates as 1966 and 2005, but I find that Branislav Đ Nušić died in 1938. Thus, these books are reprints of books published during his lifetime. The reference citations should include the dates of the original publications; it is misleading to represent these as newer books. Additionally, considering the age of the source, I wonder if the heights from which a person can see the surrounding region are actually in the village of Dulje, or if they are in fact somewhere else in the former municipality of the same name. --Orlady (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
I've added the original dates. Metohija is seen from the heights of the village itself. Thank you for your review. --Zoupan (talk) 20:09, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
Good now. AGF on the Serbian-language source that is mostly offline for me. --Orlady (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
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