Template:Did you know nominations/Karl-Friedrich Beringer
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Karl-Friedrich Beringer[edit]
... that during 34 years as the leader of the Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured), Karl-Friedrich Beringer appeared 17 times at the Rheingau Musik Festival?
- Reviewed: Fałszywka
Created/expanded by Dr. Blofeld (talk), Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:45, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Date and size of article is fine. Picture licence looks ok. Hook fact is present in the article and cited. One minor question, the sentence to verify the fact reads, in German: Mit sage und schreibe bisher 18 Festivalauftritten, zählt dieser herausragende Chor wohl zu den treusten Weggefährten des Rheingau Musik Festivals. This may make the hook fact sound likely, but probably not an exactly verified fact? (Why the number 18, when the article says 17; how do we know for sure that Beringer was the conductor at exactly 17 of these appearances?) Oceanh (talk) 08:20, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- We know that the conductor for the 18th one was Lehmann, and before, there was no other conductor of the Windsbacher Knabenchor than Beringer during the 25 years of the festival. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- I follow your logic, provided we really "know" those three assumptions, which means the citation should explicitly support them. I am not able to see how it does, maybe you could explain how, or alternatively provide an additional citation. There is also a problem with the placement of this particular citiation: A citation at the end of a sentence is expected to verify either the whole sentence, or the part following a previous citation. I could not find anything about the Brandenburg Summer Concert or the Schleswig-Holstein Musik Festival in this reference. Oceanh (talk) 01:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- To the latter: The two festivals were mentioned on the German Wikipedia. I found a different source for them. - If the hook requires too much math, I will for a different one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for supplying a source for the two festivals. Meanwhile, I spotted another problem: it seems that the "first" "Rainer Aul" reference (currently ref [2]) is in the wrong place, as it does not verify its preceding sentence, and thus the content of this sentence is not verified. The sentence is verified in reference [3], though, if this had been cited there. The ref [3] appears to be wrongly attributed to "Rainer Aul", and the given publication date does not match the date given on the website. As I am not fully familiar with the citation format, I hope someone else will tidy up the clutter. Oceanh (talk) 00:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Here's someone else, thanks for pointing that out. I have the (bad) habit of copying one ref to the next, and left the author and date by mistake, that's fixed. - What I can't fix is the organization of the br website which has many items under the general header "Musik, das ist meine Freude" and one url. "Aul" wrote an interview, first link top left, "Musik - eine ungeheure Kraft". I made the whole site an external link now, and left only the timeline (Zeitstrahl) as a ref. Better? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- 1) Good, hopefully that part is resolved. 2) I would recommend to find another hook if possible, unless a reference can be provided which directly verifies the hook facts. The original hook contains too much math, as you put it. First, trying to verify the number "34", observe that this number is not found in the article. We thus guess this means "from 1978 to 2011", as said in the lead, and we need to locate two separate citations elsewhere in the article to verify this. Second, trying to verify the number "17", we go to the cited reference, which says "bisher 18 Festivalauftritten" for the choir, not saying who conducted at those appearances. If we for instance like to check how long the Rheingau festival has existed, there is no such information in the Beringer biography, nor in the cited reference. The next step is to click on the Rheingau Musik Festival article. Here is a reference titled "Vor 20 Jahren wurde Rheingau-Musik-Festival gegründet", however the url currently redirects to this site, which is a news site containing only the last week's news, and nothing about Rheingau (the reference ought to be tagged accordingly). As a conclusion, we are not able to fully verify the hook fact, neither from directly cited references nor from "apparently obvious" second tries. Oceanh (talk) 12:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing out that the link of the RMF is no more what it was. (I added one.) - Looking for a specific concert, the first I found is the last, mentioning 34 years.[1][2] But I don't want to mention Christmas in October. Passion? Let's try, they sang in July:
- ALT1: ... that Karl-Friedrich Beringer conducted the Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured), winner of the 2007 Rheingau Musikpreis, in Bach's St John Passion in Eberbach Abbey? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
ALT1 hook verified. Hook facts mentioned in article, cited and verified in cited reference. Will also suggest an ALT2 hook, to clarify that the performance mentioned in the hook occured in 2009, not in 2007 when they were awarded the music prize; and alternatively an ALT3 hook, dropping the years completely. Finally the simpler ALT4 and ALT5, as I am a fan of short and simple hooks when possible.
- ALT2: ... that Karl-Friedrich Beringer conducted the Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured), winner of the 2007 Rheingau Musikpreis, performing Bach's St John Passion in Eberbach Abbey in 2009?
- ALT3: ... that Karl-Friedrich Beringer conducted the Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured), winner of the Rheingau Musikpreis, performing Bach's St John Passion in Eberbach Abbey?
- ALT4: ... that Karl-Friedrich Beringer and his Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured) was awarded the Rheingau Musikpreis in 2007?
- ALT5: ... that Karl-Friedrich Beringer conducted the Windsbacher Knabenchor (pictured) in Bach's St John Passion in Eberbach Abbey in 2009?
- Oceanh (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- 1) Good, hopefully that part is resolved. 2) I would recommend to find another hook if possible, unless a reference can be provided which directly verifies the hook facts. The original hook contains too much math, as you put it. First, trying to verify the number "34", observe that this number is not found in the article. We thus guess this means "from 1978 to 2011", as said in the lead, and we need to locate two separate citations elsewhere in the article to verify this. Second, trying to verify the number "17", we go to the cited reference, which says "bisher 18 Festivalauftritten" for the choir, not saying who conducted at those appearances. If we for instance like to check how long the Rheingau festival has existed, there is no such information in the Beringer biography, nor in the cited reference. The next step is to click on the Rheingau Musik Festival article. Here is a reference titled "Vor 20 Jahren wurde Rheingau-Musik-Festival gegründet", however the url currently redirects to this site, which is a news site containing only the last week's news, and nothing about Rheingau (the reference ought to be tagged accordingly). As a conclusion, we are not able to fully verify the hook fact, neither from directly cited references nor from "apparently obvious" second tries. Oceanh (talk) 12:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Here's someone else, thanks for pointing that out. I have the (bad) habit of copying one ref to the next, and left the author and date by mistake, that's fixed. - What I can't fix is the organization of the br website which has many items under the general header "Musik, das ist meine Freude" and one url. "Aul" wrote an interview, first link top left, "Musik - eine ungeheure Kraft". I made the whole site an external link now, and left only the timeline (Zeitstrahl) as a ref. Better? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for supplying a source for the two festivals. Meanwhile, I spotted another problem: it seems that the "first" "Rainer Aul" reference (currently ref [2]) is in the wrong place, as it does not verify its preceding sentence, and thus the content of this sentence is not verified. The sentence is verified in reference [3], though, if this had been cited there. The ref [3] appears to be wrongly attributed to "Rainer Aul", and the given publication date does not match the date given on the website. As I am not fully familiar with the citation format, I hope someone else will tidy up the clutter. Oceanh (talk) 00:14, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
