Template:Did you know nominations/List of Arjuna award recipients (1961–1969)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

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List of Arjuna award recipients (1961–1969)

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Commemorative postage stamp on Indian Everest Expedition of 1965
Commemorative postage stamp on Indian Everest Expedition of 1965
  • Reviewed: This is my 2nd DYK nomination and I am still learning the review process, hence didn't do a DYK review as per QPQ

Created by Roller26 (talk). Self-nominated at 23:41, 22 September 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: This is a useful and necessary article; thank you for creating it. The article was created on 15 September (not 16), but it is still new enough. Although this is a list, there is sufficient prose covering the history and background of the subject to cover DYK length requirement. The prose and lists are all sourced. ALT0 and ALT1 are sourced with online citations. No QPQ is required. Issues: (1) The following extracts should have quotation marks, otherwise they may be taken as plagiarism: (a) "performance of Indian sportspersons in the Commonwealth, Asian Games and Olympic Games", (b) "certificate, ceremonial dress, and a cash". (2) All of the prose is currently in the header, and most of it does not belong there. Please arrange most of the prose under subheadings, for example the meaning of Arjuna, the history of the award, the recipients, or whatever. It is OK to repeat some of that in the header. (3) Please check the prose for typos and language errors. For example, the spelling of "honour". (4) I am not sure whether the image is suitably free for DYK use. I have asked an administrator to check it. It is worth getting these issues right now, so that this nomination goes through DYK prep smoothly. Storye book (talk) 15:21, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Storye book, thanks for reviewing and providing your feedback. I have also added a picture and would request you to review it too if possible. Now addressing the concerns, I am creating lists decade wise along with the main article Arjuna Award. I have created 5 out of 7 lists and when I complete all the 7 lists, I will completely revamp the main article Arjuna Award with much more background, history, nomination, selection process and controversies. My main inspiration for all this including the formats are Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna and Padma Bhushan and all its list of awardees which are all either Featured Lists or Good Article. Hence your concern at (1) is similar to the one used in Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna leading paragraphs. Concern at (2) is similar to List of Padma Bhushan award recipients (1954–1959) which provides only a brief background of the award and then lists all the relevant awardees. A much deeper information will be provided with adequate headings at the main award page. (3) "Honour" is the correct spelling as per British English and Indian English, the one used in the article. I should probably mention that in the article. Kindly let me know about any other typos. Thanks. Roller26 (talk) 15:44, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Storye book I am have made certain changes regarding (1) concern. Let me know if it works. Roller26 (talk) 16:18, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, but this has not resolved any of the identified problems. For example you still have the spelling "hounour". I did write a long explanation to assist you to correct all your typos and language errors, but the edit conflict has lost that paragraph for me. Please read my original comment again, and please read through the header carefully. This is not about American and British/Indian English. I should add that your over-long captions for the images has created unnecessary white space. You need to move most of those captions into prose, referring to the image as (pictured). Remember we are dealing with this article only. For the purposes of this nomination template, it does not matter what is in other articles. The header is still over-long, and it still needs to be separated up, using subheadings. Storye book (talk) 16:29, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Update: An administrator has now reviewed the image, and confirmed that the image is OK, so I have struck out issue (4) in my original review. Storye book (talk) 16:35, 23 September 2020 (U
Update: I'll write out again the information which was lost. (3) Typos and language errors. (a) IS the sports honour (not are). (b) AWARD WAS the highest sporting honour (not awards were). (c) Has undergone (A) number. (d) IT HAS introduced ... AND introduced A lifetime ... (e) AT LEAST (no hyphen). (f) Individuals ... which INCLUDE (not includes). (g) TO date (not till date). (h) In 1965 BY the successful (not from). Storye book (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Storye book, thanks for the image review and the list of typos. I have corrected the mentioned typos and language issues + 2 more minor ones. I have also rephrased (1)a. Let me know if it works. Regarding the caption in the images used in the article, these do not belong in the article prose itself. If they do not seem appropriate then either the caption itself or with the image can be removed.
Also I do not think that creating sub headings for introduction of the award in the list of awardees of a particular decade is a good idea. If you feel that a lot of information has been added in the lead section, either let me know which statements should be removed/modified or feel free to do it yourself. Also to note is that other similar Indian Government awards from which this article is inspired are following certain styles which have been reviewed by the community to be voted/nominated at the highest standards. As a relatively new user, its much easier for me to follow particular good examples and imitate them, rather than try to do everything from scratch. Roller26 (talk) 19:54, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Roller26. Remaining typos: (a) ARE honoured for their (not is honoured). (b) HAS (not i has). I have tidied up the image captions as requested, so that there is no big gap of white space in your article. Thank you, the issue 1a is now resolved, and I have struck it out of my original review comment. Regarding the header: it would be inadvisable to cut the prose if you want to have enough prose to be allowed to continue with this nomination. All of that prose is interesting and useful, so it would be very sad if you cut it, anyway. The point is, articles have headers and prose content. This article only has a header which is too big. It makes a wall of text which is rather intimidating to read on a phone or ipad. If you break it up into a smallish header, and several subtitled sections, that will make it easier to find information via a small-screen device. Not everybody uses a wide-screen monitor. But the most important point is that sections make information easier to find. If you consider the needs of a reader browsing for particular information, standing on a station platform or sitting in a cafe with a phone, all this makes sense. Storye book (talk) 20:23, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, roller26, for resolving the remaining typos. I have struck out all issues which are now resolved. All that remains is the issue of the header. I cannot re-write the header for you, because that would be a big change, and that would compromise the value of my review. To get this final issue resolved, I guess you now have a choice. (1) You could find someone to help you change the single big header into a smaller header plus some new sections, OR (2) if you do not want to change the header at all, you can call for a new reviewer. I don't mind which you choose - my job here is to try to give you a quick and smooth run through the DYK process. You have achieved a lot so far, and thank you for your quick and efficient responses. Storye book (talk) 21:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Ah, yes, I understand that. I hadn't checked out the other articles; thank you, Yoninah, for spotting that. It is very sad, but I hope the creator of this article can learn from the experience of this nomination and create a great article for DYK next time. Apart from the copy-and-paste article duplication, they have done a good job. Storye book (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
  • @Roller26:. Roller26, you have a good chance to do well next time, so long as you don't copy and paste the same paragraphs into two or more articles. Good luck in your next nomination.. Storye book (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
  • @Storye book:, @Yoninah: first of all I apologize for not knowing about A5. I should have read all the rules thoroughly before plunging into DYK. However the copy paste text was first created in this article. I can add the missing text as all articles already have over 1000 characters of new text. The main article Arjuna Award should easily have 5x expansion by the time its nominated (hopefully in a day or two). If its all right, I request you keep the Template:Did you know nominations/List of Arjuna award recipients (1980–1989) in approved section for 4 more hours. However if you feel that this can't be allowed or that rules were not followed, kindly reject whichever/all nomination(s). Thanks. Roller26 (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
  • @Roller26: Of course we can wait. As long as a review is open, you have time to fix things. Yoninah (talk) 20:50, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Yoninah for coming in and helping both of us, and thank you, Roller26 for improving the header by making sections. I have struck out all my previous comments about the header, and I have copyedited the article prose. Apart from the new issue raised by Yoninah, I would say that the article is fine for DYK now. When Yoninah confirms that the copy and paste issue is resolved, I'll be happy to give the green tick. Storye book (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

  • Yes, the character count squeaks by with 1504 new characters of text. I find the hooks incredibly wordy. If the image isn't selected, is the hook hooky on its own? I would at least shorten ALT0 to:
  • ALT0a: ... that twenty members of the successful 1965 Indian Everest expedition (depicted) received the first and only team Arjuna award sporting honour? Yoninah (talk) 10:33, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, I am not from the US but have a great interest and good knowledge about US's history, national politics and foreign policy. Yet I don't find most of the US hooks approved or on the main page that interesting. If the argument is that as a good proportion of English Wiki readers are from the US and it serves them, then fine. However I do find other countries hooks much more interesting. Anyone with basic interest in mountaineering/climbing will be able to appreciate that in the early years of Everest climbing getting 1 or 2 members from a expedition on top was considered a great success. This expedition put 9 men on top of Everest, a record for the next 17 years. The hook tries to portray that accomplishment and I believe it is interesting enough for a broad audience. Also I think the fact that the award was the highest for India is important, and not some run of the mill award. But being far more experienced than me, I leave it to your judgement. Roller26 (talk) 11:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
  • @Roller26: the problem with nominating a string of hooks that all have Arjuna award as the bolded link and that all say basically the same thing is that readers and other editors at DYK are going to question why we're running so many hooks on the same subject. (They will have to be spread out over at least week each.) We've had this issue in the past with a surfeit of Pennsylvania rivers, U.S. radio stations, and the like. The other problem with the way you're wording these hooks is that there's no reason to click on the bolded link to learn more. The most interesting part of this hook is the successful expedition, which isn't the bolded link, and will probably get more clicks than the Arjuna award. Yoninah (talk) 12:17, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
  • I would support ALT0a as the DYK choice, because hooks on the main page need to be quick and easy to read, and they need to give the information across smoothly and easily. ALT0a is elegantly phrased, i.e. clear, concise and to the point. I believe that you don't need to include "highest honour" because that hook gives the impression that it is an important honour anyway. Storye book (talk) 12:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, Storye book, I am good with the ALT0a hook suggested. If everything seems fine then this nomination can be approved. Thanks. Roller26 (talk) 09:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I am happy with ALT0a. (I have struck out ALT0 to avoid confusion). @Yoninah: Yoninah, please could you kindly confirm where we have got to with the copy and paste problem? If it is resolved then I'll give the green tick. If it is not resolved and we are still waiting for an expansion, please could you kindly clarify exactly what has to be done (e.g. how many more prose words) to make the article valid for DYK? Storye book (talk) 10:17, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
  • @Roller26: now there are only 1493 characters in the Recipients section. Could you add another (new) sentence? Yoninah (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
  • An online character counter tells me that the Recipients section (not counting the subtitle) now has 1527 characters. That includes about 19 citation numbers and brackets, which cuts it rather fine. Are you happy for me to give this a tick now, Yoninah? Storye book (talk) 10:22, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
  • According to JavaScript the section is at 1836 characters now. @Storye book: Did you include the stamp paragraph after the chart? Thanks for your work, Roller26, it looks like it's ready now. Yoninah (talk) 11:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Hurrah, we're there! Thank you, everybody. Storye book (talk) 12:44, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Storye book, Yoninah Thank You both for your kind guidance, edits in the article and patience with me to ensure that this nomination makes it through. Roller26 (talk) 14:33, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
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