Template:Did you know nominations/Manfred von Richthofen (General)

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Manfred von Richthofen (General)[edit]

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Created/expanded by Hamish59 (talk), Br'er Rabbit (talk), Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by George Ho (talk) at 18:48, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

new enough, long enough, referenced well. Hook is naturally complicated cuz there are 2 of these guys, but the 3 alts presented aren't satisfying to me somehow. Also, since both earned the Blue Max, that's not a good way to differentiate them. I propose:

I stroke previous hooks because yours is better. I wonder if further review is needed because of ALT 4. --George Ho (talk) 07:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)



How about

Hamish59 (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

  • I really think if you're going to use "Blue Max" in the hook, the term needs to be in the general's article at least once. It is in his grandnephew's. Also, the paragraph about the Red Baron in the general's article needs to mention any award you're listing in this hook, and footnote it. (All facts in the hook need inline citations.) Which leads to another, more important thing: the citations need to be improved in general. There are no footnotes at all in the Early life and Later life sections. DYK rules demand at least one per paragraph, and the important facts should be sourced. The General of the Cavalry fact in the intro needs also to be in the body of the article; preferably, the footnote for that (and for his Pour le Mérite) should be in the body, not the lead. (It has to be footnoted in the body, but lack of a footnote in the lead means that it is footnoted in the body.) BlueMoonset (talk) 02:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
    • I received the notice, and I already know that it has source issues. I just didn't want to comment yet. Anyway, I have other priorities to do rather than to find sources that are in German, which I don't understand. Also, I will leave these issues to someone else. As for this nom, I'll leave this in someone else's hands, like yours. --George Ho (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Hamish59 left me a note on my talk page saying "I will have to let this one go for now." With neither the creator/expander nor the nominator willing to address the outstanding issues, it appears this DYK will have to be failed. I do hope the article is submitted to GAN at some point. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I am not yet into the topic, but would be willing to look at the issues, please hold the nom, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Looked, I wonder why the general is not yet mentioned in the Blue Max article, and why there is no ref in the Red Baron's article. Sigh, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:16, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I am thinking about this line from a ref for the article and a hook, admittedly less quirky: "At war's end, von Richthofen surrendered the Berlin Palace without defending it, preferring rather to preserve the edifice and artwork therein." - I like that ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
I did some more referencing and suggest:
ALT6: ... that General Manfred von Richthofen, the great uncle of his namesake, the Red Baron, surrendered the Berliner Stadtschloss in World War I to preserve the building and its art? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Gerda, may I ask what makes the Viser website or the one used for footnote 4 (German War History) a reliable source? The former certainly seems to have a great deal of information, but while there's an extensive bibliography, there isn't an indication of which bit came from where. On a completely different subject, given the poor reaction to the recent Fred Tenney/Fred Tenney hook, I've struck out ALT5, which has a similar format. ALT4 is still problematic, since while Blue Max is now mentioned in the intro (but not in a body), the award itself is not sourced, nor is the fact that it has both names. (The Cavalry General part now appears in the article.) If the Viser source is good, ALT6 is supported by inline citations. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:56, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Sigh, not my topic. I see a notable personality in history, covered in books that I don't have. I tried to find more online refs, - google finds the Red Baron. That the order is called Blue Max is in that article, does every article mentioning it need a ref for it? - No more time for him today, sorry, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Nor is it my topic. My view of Blue Max is that if you are going to mention it in the hook, by DYK rules it has to be not only in the general's article, since that's what's been nominated, but the name has to be footnoted as well. If you're interested in pursuing this, I'll ask for a second opinion on the Viser website as a reliable source. If you're not, then we should probably let the nomination close. Please let me know what you'd like to do. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Back from trip with no connection: I don't like to close it, will look into it later today, probably use a different hook altogether that doesn't depend on the source mentioned, and certainly one not about "Blue Max" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Let's keep it simple and state what all online (!) sources (and an added external link) agree on (+ a bit of math):
ALT7: ... that General Manfred von Richthofen, the great uncle of his namesake, the Red Baron, received Prussia's order Pour le Mérite in 1918, aged 62? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Allowing one week for replacement sourcing to be found now that the Viser source is confirmed as inadmissable—the lack of reliably sourced footnotes in the Early life and Later life sections currently prevents this from qualifying for DYK. Gerda has raised the possibility of contacting WikiProject Germany and/or WikiProject World War I to see if someone there is able to provide sources; if sourcing to DYK standards is not provided within a week, then the nomination will be up for deletion. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Help with sourcing asked here, same Germany, also author, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I disagree that the fact the Blue Max is the Pour le Mérite requires a citation but since it's true that a lot of English-speaking readers won't know the Blue Max from a Black Maria, I've added a ref for that fact to both articles. I've also added a sprinkling of references to the early and later life sections of this article. (I would have liked to reference the adoption of Wolfram but didn't manage that, so I combined the two paragraphs in the latter section.) I couldn't face wrestling them into the referencing style used in the article, for which I apologise; and I expect military history buffs will be able to find more. I'd like to push for ALT4 or maybe a variant like this:
ALT4a ... that General Manfred von Richthofen, like the air ace who was named after him and was his great-nephew, was awarded the "Blue Max" for his service in World War I? Yngvadottir (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
ALT4a approved. — Puppy of Dog The Teddy Bear • WOOF • 20:47, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Striking ALT6, since it is not supported by an inline citation, so it is not accidentally used by whoever promotes this. Suggesting an ALT4b that mentions that the air ace was the Red Baron, which will be a name that many will recognize (note: if preferred, "a fighter pilot" can be substituted for "an air ace"):
  • This says more about the Red Baron than the one in question, no?
ALT4c ... that General Manfred von Richthofen and the Red Baron, his namesake and great-nephew, were each awarded the "Blue Max" for their service in World War I? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:49, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
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