Template:Did you know nominations/Rue Sainte-Catherine Roundup

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

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Rue Sainte-Catherine Roundup

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  • ... that Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie was personally present at the Rue Sainte-Catherine Roundup? Source: See p. 16, Klarsfeld, Serge (1985). La Rafle de la Rue Sainte-Catherine A Lyon. Le 9 février 1943 dans les locaux de la 1ère section (CAR) et de la 2ème section (FSJF) de la 5ème Direction "Assistance" de l'UGIF (PDF) (in French). Paris: Les Fils et Filles des Déportés Juifs de France. Yad Vashem. OCLC 24630721.
Reviewed: RETRIEVE.Iry-Hor (talk) 13:38, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Created/expanded by Iry-Hor (talk). Self-nominated at 13:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC).

Piotrus Done all the infos come from the first 5 pages of Klarsfeld 1985's document.Iry-Hor (talk) 11:11, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
And we are . --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here
  • Per WP:NOTMEMORIAL, I don't think there should be a list of victims. A word about some of the more notable victims might reasonably be included. Gatoclass (talk) 13:18, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Gatoclass Thinking about this, I disagree with this "guideline" on the following grounds:
  • Moral: wikipedia has hundred of articles on Nazi war criminals but cannot have an article with the names of some of their victims ?
  • Nature: this article is not a memorial, as it includes much more than a list of victims. For an example of memorial, see the photograph at the top of the article of the Commemorative plaque in Lyon.
  • Understanding: to quote from WP:NOTMEMORIAL: "Memorials: Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements." I have trouble seeing how this covers the case of a Nazi roundup followed by extermination in one of the most notorious actions of Klaus Barbie that played a crucial role in his trial and indictment ?
  • Precedent: nearly all articles on serial killers include a detailed list of their known victims, sometimes as a list, sometimes woven into the text. There are also hundreds of articles on industrial disasters / accidents with lists of victims. None of these are said to be memorials.
  • Impact: the recent vandalism on the commemorative plaque meant to make all names of victims illegible. Let us precisely go against this intention.
  • Numbers: Eichmann himself said "a hundred victims is a tragedy but six millions is a number", let this not be.

Since there is WP:IGNORE no rule on wikipedia when it comes to improving the encyclopedia, I don't think that WP:NOTMEMORIAL is one that should hold here as it bares the article from being complete (hence improving wikipedia). I also disagree that this should be decided by a single editor (be it you or me).Iry-Hor (talk) 06:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Comment - I agree with Gatoclass that WP:NOTMEMORIAL should be followed. If there are wiki articles about any of the victims they could be linked, but it shouldn't list all the victims as if the page is a plaque on war memorial or holocaust memorial - that is not wikipedia's role. The claim that other articles about events where mass numbers of people have been killed list all the victims isn't true - just a few examples: Bopal disaster, Erebus disaster, Christchurch mosque shootings. Editor Iry-Hor obviously hasn't checked "hundreds" of such articles, so why make a claim that there are "hundreds of articles" that do list all the victims? Articles about serial killers are different as the victims are usually captured and killed one-by-one i.e. a series of separate crimes are described in those articles, and the numbers of people killed by a serial killer are not on a par with those killed in disasters, mass holocaust crimes, etc. Your arguments in general are over-emotive and non-neutral. Wikipedia should remain neutral and non-emotive even when describing things like Nazi war crimes and terrorist attacks and listing all the victims, unless they are notable people, is memorializing. 62.117.18.177 (talk) 10:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Evrik: consensus seems to be leaning toward yes, this does violate WP:NOTMEMORIAL. I also agree that the list of names, ages, and places of death is over the top. We had a similar issue with listing every one of the Schindlerjuden, and the consensus was not to list. Since this is an article issue, not a DYK issue, I think an RfC should be opened on the article's talk page and this nomination put on hold. Yoninah (talk) 23:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah I'm not sure I agree with this assessment. --evrik (talk) 19:44, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah I would really like to understand which bit of the WP:NOTMEMORIAL is used to back the idea that this article is a memorial. As I have stated above, all the page WP:NOTMEMORIAL contains on the matter is the following sentence: "Memorials: Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements". I fail to see how this applies in any way to the article debated here and I also note that nobody has provided an explanation relating the present article to the sentence given as definition for what is a memorial on wikipedia: notability seems to have been accepted by all (nobody suggests deleting the article) as it comes from the event itself. In particular, the roundup was not only/just a part of the holocaust but also a crucial piece of evidence in the ensuing famous trial of Klaus Barbie. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:08, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
evrik OkIry-Hor (talk) 08:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
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