Template:Did you know nominations/The Game (mind game)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

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The Game (mind game)[edit]

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Improved to Good Article status by Bilorv (talk). Self nominated at 18:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC).

  • Great hook and great candidate for last slot, but really it deserves first slot. EEng (talk) 23:22, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. There are three images in the article, so I did consider pictures, but I think they all look way too small at 100x100 pixels (see [[1]]). Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 07:45, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I predict that a cunning crop of the toilet seat, with the note visible, would get a MILLION CLICKS! EEng (talk) 19:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm not an expert with images on Wikipedia — if you can crop the toilet seat so the note is readable at 100x100px, I think it'd be a great picture, but I'm not sure I can manage it. Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 21:01, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • See above, not what I'd hoped for, but frankly I think anything showing a toilet with a mysterious note will get plenty of clicks. And let me suggest:
ALT3A :... that if you finish this sentence you'll lose The Game?
ALT3B :... that if you read to the end of this sentence you'll lose The Game?
ALT4: ... that you've just lost The Game? (alternative mode of losing pictured) Parentheses suggested by EEng. Moved to its own ALT. — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 19:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

EEng (talk) 03:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Okay, I like the image and I think we should use it. I think ALT3A is better than ALT3B, but I still prefer my original hooks (and like ALT2 over ALT1 or the original). Which hook(s) do you think is/are best? Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 08:56, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
The point of ALT3A/B is that you haven't lost The Game until you think of The Game, which doesn't happen until you get to the end of sentence. (There are some philosophical problems in all of this, but we needn't go into those.) But I'll leave that choice to others. EEng (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
I think that the ALT3s work better if you already understand what The Game is (it sounds like a prank message you might send to a friend who understands the in-joke). As a hook on what I would imagine most people would not understand immediately, I think "you've just lost The Game" is something that would be quicker understood when you visited the article, and is an oft-used line in the realm of game-losing. Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 11:13, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Fine. I wouldn't designate it for April 1 though -- too much competition for first slot, and this can run any time. EEng (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Can it run at any time? Technically speaking, the hook's fact doesn't have an inline citation in the article and it's not a particularly neutral hook either. Currently, there is only one hook nominated for April 1 (which I understand is still a while away) which has a picture, and the Main Page has had 3 DYK sets for the past 4 years. I would also be willing to remove the picture (although would be sorry to waste your efforts in cropping) if it was necessary, and put it in a lower slot. Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 17:50, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Even in the somewhat rulebound world of DYK this hook should be fine any time -- it doesn't assert a "fact" needing citation. Here, I'll ping two of our most respected DYK "old hands" to verify that. BlueMoonset, Crisco 1492 -- PING! EEng (talk) 00:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Facepalm Facepalm Oh the things people come up with. I think, for April Fools day, this is fine. The rules are cited, and if you read about something you think about it (even if you don't know exactly what you are thinking about), so it's really not OR. The "you" construct is another thing, but Fish Day is usually more relaxed about that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

No-one's commented for a few days. What's happening with the hook? I'd prefer to use ALT2 with the image on April Fool's day. Any objections? — Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 09:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment: If the picture is going to be used, then (pictured) or something like that should be included in the hook itself. HYH.124 (talk) 06:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Do you have any suggestions for a hook for this article including "(pictured)"? Personally, I think it would be annoying and get in the way of the joke wherever you try to put it. We might be able to bend the rules just once for April Fools' Day, but maybe we need someone more experienced in DYK to verify that would be fine first. — Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 07:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I see EEng has added "(alternative mode of losing pictured)" to the above hooks. It seems to me like this is long and clunky, and raises the question of what the picture is an "alternative" to, since no other mode of losing is mentioned in the hook. I think I would prefer to run the hook without the picture than with it containing "(alternative mode of losing pictured)", but there's been no response to my questioning of whether we can use the image without any form of "(pictured)". — Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 18:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure something like (pictured) because otherwise, on Main Page, it's unclear even which hook the picture goes with. I realize (alternative mode) etc. is clunky, but actually I think that's part of its charm. EEng (talk) 21:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Hooks are supposed to be intriguing. If you want people to read your article, run it in the first DYK slot with the picture. The whole point it to get people to go "Wha... what? <click>". Trust me on this one. EEng (talk) 18:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Is the simple hook (in full bold) not more intriguing? I'd also add that it's not my article*, and my main purpose in this particular DYK would be to elicit a few laughs from a simple joke in the hook, rather than solely to bait them to the article. *As for whether it's my hook, I don't think we have a rule on that — if I end up being outvoted, maybe it's better to go along with what someone else thinks than to blindly stick to my original idea. — Bilorv (Talk)(Contribs) 19:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
I always think the nominator's hook preference should get somewhat more weight. EEng (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I'd agree that adding the parenthetical at the end takes all the wind out of the joke. —Akrabbimtalk 19:12, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Which ALT would you prefer, and would you still leave the image there without brackets? — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 19:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure there has to be something in the hook to allow the reader to know that this is the hook (and not the 6 others appearing with it) is associated with photo. EEng (talk) 19:47, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Personally I don't think the image is necessary for the joke. It's hard to see what the sticky note says at that resolution anyway. —Akrabbimtalk 20:20, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I've cropped this image. Would it be any better? — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 20:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Actually, this img really misses the point. "I lost the game" could apply to anything, while "YOU just lost the game" goes to the heart of the matter -- by causing someone to think of the game, you make him lose.EEng (talk) 21:17, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The other image used second person ("YOU"), but it doesn't mention "The Game" and is difficult to read at that small size. It could be cropped even further to just show the post-it note, but otherwise I think the second image is, at least, better. "I lost the game" isn't wrong — it's a common catchphrase used and less ambiguous than "You lost". EDIT: I also think it would be easier to get away with not using "(pictured)" with the second image. — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 09:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC) Edit made — Bilorv (talk)(contribs) 09:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Good point. As much as I hate to lose the toilet, I think "I lost" is best after all. EEng (talk) 11:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Review request for article. Above is yet another extended hook discussion. Pick one (or some) and be prepared to lose. Fuebaey (talk) 01:22, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
    Hold my drink. I'm going in... — LlywelynII 13:06, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
  • 1) The article's pass had not actually been noted in the Talk page discussion but occurred at 21:12, 12 November 2014‎, the day before this submission. 2) 6.5k readable characters per script, well over the minimum. 3) Has various minor grammatical and MOS issues but nothing in violation of policy, given that the subject matter itself already passed (repeated) attempts at deletion. 4) Earwig's tool finds repeated issues with plagiarism... by other sites of this article. The matched passage from Tolstoy's bio is appropriately done up as a quote. 5) QPQ doesn't seem to be needed. 6) Various issues about the image are irrelevant. This very nature of this hook requires it go in the last slot, which resolves any issues concerning how to snarkily format the (pictured) tag. [Further, only ALT4 is even currently formatted to mention the pictures. The original hook is what we should go with: the article is about The Game, not you lost the game. (Although it's amusing that that is a redirect...)] 7) April Fool's should be fine, though poor editors who go down to look at the list ahead of time... — LlywelynII 13:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
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